World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Beyblade Discussion Beyblade Customizations

Competitive Metal Fight Beyblade Combos

Mar. 06, 2014  9:10 AM
 
Lighter = Better Stamina is absolutely wrong - a misconception from the era of plastics due to the wider weight disks generally being light.
There may be some truth to it for spin-stealers with regards to lowering inertia, but the tradeoff in terms of stamina/resisting the slowdown from friction that comes with that seems to be much more significant for most beyblades - it depends on the amount of friction and so on and the only setup I can think of that might be benefiting from it is Spiral Change Base (which seems to be very low friction/is making up for it with that ludicrous LAD). However, this assumes a similar weight distribution - centred weight also lowers your inertia, though again this is a matter of how centred and how much weight we're talking about, as this affects two variables in the moment of inertia equation (the total mass, and how far the centre of mass is from the central axis). Working that out could give a solution but you'd need to work out where the centre of mass lies on each beyblade and a bunch of other stuff to work it out - quite a lot of work.

Basically, lighter isn't best in and of itself, it's about the weight distribution - and M(S)F-H/M(S)F-M are right in the centre of a beyblade.
Having played around with the heavier and lighter Circle Wides in HMS Zombies, the heavier one works better and wins 1v1, but at the same time I'm not going to run off and use Circle Heavy (sometimes CWD's make up for the tradeoff in defensive attributes, especially with Circle Upper which has the weight distro to compensate for this, but that's getting away from the point). I think that enough of a weight advantage over opposing combinations means your distribution doesn't matter that much (see Basalt's success) but when you're dealing with weight right in the centre of a beyblade, that's going take a whooooole lot of weight to make up for what you're losing, and metal faces aren't going to be heavy enough - maybe on light wheels, but not on any serious MFB.

This is why I bought up Spiral Change Base - even with the amount of weight an HMC adds to what is a very light combination, it still doesn't make up for the fact it is right in the centre - the combination is rendered useless by its addition, even though it adds plenty of weight, the spin stealing and/or LAD and/or stamina are hurt too much by its location. This is basically what we're looking at here, and why I chose it for my example.

tl;dr: lighter =/= better stamina, it's all about distribution, which is really, really important to both stamina and spin stealing and is the main thing we're looking at here. Similar cases indicate strongly that centred weight is bad for stamina and while basalt's success and the general poor performance of plastics spin stealers vs even pretty mediocre MFB indicates that if it's a very significant amount of weight then it could compensate for it (which I am almost 100% sure drops drastically as weight is added further from the centre, hence the performance differences we've seen with Phantom (and what I believe to be the cause of the discrepancies with Metal Fury Scythe in limited)), faces are nowhere near a significant portion of an MFB's weight, so even the heaviest won't compensate for it.

Keep in mind I'm not 100% sure on all of that but at the least, I'm confident that a lighter face is better for spin-stealing (and almost certainly stamina) based on very similar situations.

By the way, I think we should add B: D to Duo, on the grounds it's more forgiving with weak launching than EWD, and taking hits from the major opponents Duo stamina is used against isn't really any more of an issue for it than it is for SA165EWD. It also outspins 145-height stamina in my experience. FWIW, my B: D spins really, really freely, should do a solo spin with it but yeah, that could well be part of it, in fact it seems like it might be better against F230 than SA165EWD does, though that's almost certainly because my 'testing' EWD is getting on a bit (not aggro, but it doesn't spin as long as my fresher one). Still not good enough to go on Dragooon, SA165 is much better there, but for Duo, it's good enough to deserve a spot IMO.
Jun. 06, 2014  10:20 PM
 
Where do we stand on the list right now? Its been months since its been discussed. Any thoughts on an update?
Jun. 27, 2014  3:17 AM
 
Agreed. An update is quite overdue, methinks:

Spoiler (Click to View)

This is pretty much the ideal list I'd like to see go up.
Jun. 27, 2014  3:39 AM
 
I know Phantom Stamina has lost the favor of many people, but at the bare minimum Phantom TH170 TB still belongs on there. I'll have tests proving it up by the end of the weekend if there is strong opposition to it based on standing tests.
Jun. 27, 2014  4:12 AM
 
I could have sworn that this was discussed more recently than June 6th...
Anyways, my thoughts on this:
  • Add H145 to MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF.
  • Add LRF to Wyvang Wyvang Attack combo, and pretty much all Attack combos where the RFs are interchangeable.
  • Add D125 to Genbull Dragooon T125GCF. (Credit to Kai-V)
  • Remove MSF-H Gryph Gryph E230 BSF. I've never seen show up in a tournament or on the Winning Combinations thread.
  • Someone said that Duo 230MB belongs in Balance, not Stamina.
  • Add Revizer/Killerken Dragooon B:D. It's honestly just as good, if not better, than SA165EWD/W2D.
  • Either Remove CS from the Genbull Stamina combos, since it is a Defense tip, or move the entire combo to Balance.
  • I know TBD won't agree with this, but I think SD and CF need to go. For whatever height you use, there is always a better D-series tip, and GCF was shown to be better than CF due to more surface area.
  • You should probably point out that the Hasbro orange F230 should not be used either.
Jun. 27, 2014  4:35 AM
 
As shown by geetster's rampant success with it balro balro bd145 mf definitely needs consideration. Personally, I can't think of a situation where I would use reviser or Killerken over Genbull for defense at this point (especially reviser), but I guess defense can't just be duo and Genbull. Also, I can't remember where, but wasn't there discussion that CF was far better than GCF on the 125 height combos? Furthermore, Genbull and possibly zirago and gargole also belong on dragooon b:d. Last comment for the moment, do the zirago and Genbull e230 MB setups really need to be listed as separate combos?
Jun. 27, 2014  12:28 PM
 
I agree that Balro^2 BD145MF deserves consideration, as well as Genbull/Girago on Dragooon B:D. I'm not so sure about Gargole, but my brother uses it from time to time and it is moderately successful.

Also, I think that the two E230 setups are separated to prevent confusion - if it was listed as (Genbull/Girago) (Genbull/Girago) someone could misinterpret it as saying Genbull Girago is top-tier, when it's actually Girago Genbull. Would it be too long to write it out as Genbull Genbull / Girago Genbull / Girago Girago E230MB?
Jun. 27, 2014  3:19 PM
 
The E230 destabilizers are listed separately to avoid listing Genbull Girago E230MB, yah.

I will add LRF to all Attack combinations now. I could've sworn I had already done that...

Wyvang honestly has so much recoil, I seriously doubt listing H145 with Wyvang RSF would be a good idea. The extra weight and bulk BD145 provides is a lot of what neutralizes the recoil and makes the thing useable as a Balance type. If you're going H145, you might as well take the next step and slap a variant of RF on it to maximize the smash anyway.

Phantom is legit waaaay too flimsy to use in the meta ATM. I totally didn't believe Kei when he first pointed it out to me, but KOing Phantom with a Revizer Defense custom is extremely easy, especially at heights like 170+. I like it, but I really do think it needs to go (again, not all smiles about it, but we've gotta face the facts here).

I absolutely love Balro BD145MF. Love love love it. One of my all-time favorite customs, actually. The only reason I didn't propose its addition previously was because of lack of tournament results, but it does seem like we have that now. I'm gonna go ahead and add it to Balance. Just let me know if anyone thinks we should wait a bit longer.

I really see no distinct advantage or disadvantage between CF and GCF on an F230 custom. Yes, GCF functions significantly better on Genbull Dragooon T125/D125GCF (which I will add D125 to, BTW), but that's a totally different custom and the free-spinning properties of F230 really cuts down on the visible differences in performance between the two. It's really just a matter of preference rather than a statistical issue, and for that reason I think we should leave both (not to mention results differ widely between members, and everybody might not agree with removing it).

SD's a boss. That's another area where results differ, but from my personal experience and the personal experience of many members in the past, IMO we'd need quite a bit of evidence from several members to consider removing it.

CS on Genbull functions as a great Stamina Bottom, but the customs themselves aren't geared toward Defense at all, and putting them there wouldn't be best IMO. I do agree with what th!nk said a while back about adding MSF-H as an option to the Genbull CS customs, though, and I agree that moving them to Balance would probably be the best way to categorize them. I will do that as well (again, if anyone objects we can change it back in a snap).

Dragooon B : D is vastly inferior to any other form of Dragooon Spin stealer in Standard format in my experience. its tendency to drop relatively quickly at the end of a match paired with Dragooon, and its complete lack of LAD comapred to SA165 basically makes it useless in today's SA156-heavy meta. I strongly, strongly disagree with ever adding it, ever. If anyone wants to convince me it should go up there, they're gonna need a bucketload of positive test results and a very, very persuasive written argument (obviously if I'm out voted it doesn't really matter, but yah - I'd definitely advise leaving it alone).

Will specify F230's brand. Good call.

I actually agree with specifying that E230 should be used in boost mode. The destabilizers don't really work well without it, and it vastly increases the effectiveness of E230 Defense customs. I don't think anybody uses the other mode for anything anyway (except for Gryph E230BSF).

As for Gryph Gryph E230BSF, eehhhh... I like it, but it's been under scrutiny for a while and I feel like it's just an obstacle in getting an update in. We can talk about adding it later, but considering popular opinion (and, most importantly, the committee's opinion), I think it should come down for now. Fingers crossed it makes its way to top-tier someday, though.

Because of how the Balance meta is like nowadays, I believe it was agreed upon that Duo 230MB is far closer to Stamina than anything else classification-wise. Maybe we can move it later, but I'd want to hear everyone's opinion on it before we do.

Alrighty then, here's what I would propose:

Spoiler (Click to View)
Jun. 27, 2014  6:02 PM
 
So some of these are popular opinion, and some are controversial. More or less what I expected.

H145 on Wyvang: Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the goal of the combo to be like a stationary Anti-Attack that uses the opponent's recoil against it? If so, then wouldn't H145 just help with that purpose? MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang is already the heaviest Synchrom, and I think RSF can take the hits pretty well.

I didn't bring up Phantom, but I agree it should go unless it's 85MF.

I definitely remember reading somewhere that GCF > CF on F230. It was something like GCF is wider, so it keeps the combo upright longer, and then once it does fall over, the spokes help it stay in place so it doesn't spin around and get hit in the F230. Maybe this was just in Zero-G and I'm crossing the two over but I don't see why that explanation isn't plausible for BB-10. I know *Ginga* had it as his user title once, maybe he can back me up.

D vs. SD on 230 seems to be split 50/50 between people. I've been working on a few tests and Echizen already did a mirror match between the two. I'll have tests up ASAP.

Dragooon B:D is on the level of SA165EWD/W2D from my experience. Maybe it's just that I have a good B:D, but I've found it to be just as good if not better. B:D's got more pure Stamina than SA165EWD/W2D, and can beat both in a mirror match. It's also easier to weak launch, because B:D has arguably the best precession in the game. I guess it comes down to precession vs. LAD, but I definitely think it should go up. Killerken and Revizer are obvious choices for the bottom wheel, Genbull adds Stamina but I'm iffy about the shape. Zirago is a maybe for me just because I've never used it, and Gargole is definitely worse than Killerken and Revizer.

I'm just glad we could look past the "Oh it's B:D it has sucky Defense" argument. Weak launching works wonders unless you're facing a Dragoon Attacker, and the sheer weight gives it passable Defense. And let's be honest, neither B:D nor SA165EWD/W2D are designed to take hits well.

I've never used or been a big fan of E230, so I have no opinion on it. I was just suggesting Gryph Gryph get kicked because I've never seen it used.

Honestly the whole line between Defense and Stamina has been crossed a lot, but you're right with things being relative. Duo 230MB can stay in Stamina.

EDIT: D vs. SD tests are here.
Jun. 27, 2014  6:40 PM
 
SA165EWD and B : D are actually very close in height, and their precession is also very close. B : D does have slightly more, and happens to cross right over the fine line that causes Duo to stay completely upright, but with Dragooon, where standing upright in't a possibility, SA165's LAD is far more valuable.

The point of MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF is to create a custom capable of KOing Stamina types easily, while maintaining some level of Defense to deal passively with Attack types, some level of Stamina to deal passively with Defense types, and to eliminate risk of self-KO or mislaunch, which is arguably the biggest problem with conventional Attack types. So no, H145 would probably only hinder it (just to let you know, in case I haven't said this before, I've actually tried this - H145 just couldn't handle Wyvang's recoil, and made for a less stable combination overall).

The whole CF vs. GCF thing may have come from Time's thread, which I think was a shaky discussion because of confusion and misconceptions and whatnot between posters. As far as tournament results and my personal experience with F230CF/GCF customs and the personal experience of others I've spoken to and played against, there really isn't all that much of a difference; definitely not enough to warrant removing one of them if you ask me.

Where's Time? We should ask him about this.
Jun. 27, 2014  9:22 PM
 
If you mean on the cf v. Gcf subject, I thought there was sound evidence that gcf is superior, but on the other hand this in no way means that cf isn't viable. So, I'm all for leaving cf on the list. Although, I wouldn't mind hearing your explanation as to why you prefer gcf on the 125 height setups.
Jun. 27, 2014  11:30 PM
 
Higher speed and ability to remain upright at lower spin velocity due to wider surface area, which the whole super-high LAD and friction-reducing free-spinning function kinda eliminates.
Jun. 28, 2014  1:00 AM
 
Maybe it's only for me, but doesn't cf offer much higher pure lad since it is completely round?
Jun. 28, 2014  1:47 AM
 
I don't think so, IIRC the effect of the "gear" design on GCF is negligible.
Jun. 28, 2014  1:53 AM
 
I unfortunately do not have time to try it, but just to throw some physics here in case it convinces either side : a tire needs the friction and the impulse to rotate and make the car move forward. Technically, CF is made of only rounded plastic, which does not offer much friction. On the other side though, GCF has cogs that could indeed stop it from rotating, but at the same time, each impulse to eventually move technically creates an added impulse due to the sudden fall of the rotating cog in contact with the floor. Think about that huge wheel at the end of every episode of The Price Is Right. That could be negligible, but hey, not much else explains the difference, unless the diametre is actually dissimilar.
Jun. 28, 2014  2:03 AM
 
(Jun. 27, 2014  6:40 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: there really isn't all that much of a difference; definitely not enough to warrant removing one of them if you ask me.

I agree 100%.

While there may be some difference between GCF and CF, they are both highly effective, and in general the decision of which to use is more of a matter of opinion and personal taste rather than a clear performance advantage to one side or the other.

I think the known facts about these two tips are:
-CF is much easier to control than GCF, and can safely be launched more strongly, though both are usable with practice.
-GCF has slightly wider diameter on the tip itself (not the disk) and as a result is able to stay up more effectively at the end of the match. Just look at GF for a more extreme example.

So the choice is really up to whether the player feels like CF's controllability and higher initial power outweighs GCF's marginally higher LAD. There's no clear-cut winner, so I don't think that it's really possible or worth our time to try and kick one off.
Jun. 28, 2014  2:35 AM
 
I'll take a closer look at the list and everyone's posts later this weekend, but I can say a couple things right now:

1. Phantom is absolutely 100% for sure not going to be on the updated list.

2. I lost to geetster99's Balro Balro BD145MF 3-2 at GRAND BATTLE PRELUDE: Metal Fight Beyblade and as a result decided to try it out at LMAO's Birthday Beynanza this past weekend. It did very, very well, so I am also in favour of adding it to the list.

3. CF/GCF are fine together on the list.

4. Gryph Gryph E230BSF still feels like a dud to me. I think we'll remove it for now. Is there any videos of it anywhere?
Jul. 02, 2014  1:40 AM
 
Just a quick question - if everybody is comfortable with this list, could we consider posting it within the next couple days?

We can always make adjustments when we need to, but an update is so long overdue I feel like just about anything would be better than what we have posted now. I think the priority right now should be getting something up fast. We could easily do a quick, smaller update in a month or so after considering some of the fine points of customization that some of us disagree on or that need to be explored, but from my understanding, this is a pretty great representation of the forum's opinion on what's currently competitive, and posting it quickly would do far more good than any potential harm it might cause.

I personally have something I'm working on as well that I hope to post both here and in the public forums as soon as I'm able, but it would take a lot of discussion and I feel like introducing new material at this point would just delay the update too much. Among some of the other things to be discussed would be the addition of SA165 to multiple Attack customs, Synchrom options for E230 Defense, etc.
Jul. 02, 2014  2:06 AM
 
You're right. I pulled the trigger and updated the list just now!

The only thing I removed (for now) was MSF-H Gryph Gryph E230 BSF, which I think most people agreed with. I still don't like TB in Standard ... but that might just be me haha. I need to play with it more.
Jul. 02, 2014  2:28 AM
 
I feel that Phantom should still be listed as an alternative stamina MW if Duo isn't accessible. Which is really common for Hasbro bladers also, I can understand they would go with 85MF in most cases.

I believe everything else is 100% good maybe add up Balro Balro BD145MF to Attack list.
Jul. 02, 2014  2:32 AM
 
(Jul. 02, 2014  2:06 AM)Kei Wrote: You're right. I pulled the trigger and updated the list just now!

The only thing I removed (for now) was MSF-H Gryph Gryph E230 BSF, which I think most people agreed with. I still don't like TB in Standard ... but that might just be me haha. I need to play with it more.

It really might be just you. I love TB. I just feel its so versatile in terms of use. And its pretty.
Jul. 02, 2014  2:56 AM
 
(Jun. 27, 2014  3:19 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Phantom is legit waaaay too flimsy to use in the meta ATM.

I want to agree, but Stars brings up a good point about part availability to Hasbro Bladers. If we disregard part availability (like we're supposed to?), that doesn't change the fact that many Phantoms can still outspin some Duos in straight Stamina battles.


(Jun. 27, 2014  3:19 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: I really see no distinct advantage or disadvantage between CF and GCF on an F230 custom. Yes, GCF functions significantly better on Genbull Dragooon T125/D125GCF (which I will add D125 to, BTW), but that's a totally different custom and the free-spinning properties of F230 really cuts down on the visible differences in performance between the two. It's really just a matter of preference rather than a statistical issue, and for that reason I think we should leave both (not to mention results differ widely between members, and everybody might not agree with removing it).

Before trying both GCF and CF out on Genbu Dragoon 125 today, I wouldn't have thought CF would be able to outspin as many things as GCF could, but that was before I realized how good either combinations were at KO'ing by destabilization. After playing with them, I think either could actually work at 125 height. Whatever Stamina combo they couldn't outspin, they could both typically knock out.


(Jun. 27, 2014  3:19 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: SD's a boss. That's another area where results differ, but from my personal experience and the personal experience of many members in the past, IMO we'd need quite a bit of evidence from several members to consider removing it.

I would've said the opposite this morning, but after performing these tests, I'm with you on keeping SD around.


Quote:* F230 must be the orange TAKARA TOMY one from Zero-G Random Booster Volume 3, not the brown or Hasbro ones.

I don't know if anybody else thinks it sounds a little repetitive with the use of "one" so shortly after its last instance, and even though Wombat defines what a "ZGRBV3" is in his new WBO Glossary, I'd still like to see the sentence reworded and ZGRBV3 be written out for the sake of clarity.


Also, I haven't had much experience with TB in Standard, but if it performs similarly to and nearly as well as it does in Limited, I think it should definitely remain up.


(Click to View)

EDIT: I posted far too late, ha ha...
Jul. 02, 2014  6:43 AM
 
At least personally, I'm absolutely in love with tb, I get 170 and taller tb setups to OS just about anything else
Jul. 03, 2014  8:14 PM
 
I also have great success with TB in Standard, especially on Duo 230TB, which I honestly think is probably the most effective 230/220-height Stamina combination in the game right now. It solidly out-does D, SD, and MB from my testing, and it can OS pretty much every right-spin Stamina custom on the tier list.
Jul. 08, 2014  12:53 AM
 
Hey guys, it's been awhile!

I'm really happy to see the update, and I like it a lot! Also, yay for the format of the list! I rather like it for obvious reasons Tongue_out_wink

I'm sad to see Phantom go, but I can't say I disagree with the reasoning behind it; the recoil really is a dealbreaker compared to the alternatives. Regarding the availability issue, Phantom isn't really that much easier to obtain than Duo considering the hiatus, and Genbull Genbull is magnitudes easier to obtain than both of them thanks to the Shogun Steel release, so that's kind of a moot point. Ah well, Phantom shall live on in tornado stalling glory *u*

Gryph Gryph E230BSF actually did show up quite a few times in Winning Customs right after KainHighwind made the thread for the custom, but like y'all have been saying it has been a long while since it has made any waves. The meta has to be just right for it to work, so it maybe would be able to put some dents in tournament play again if the stars align juuuuust right.

Is everyone really using boost mode for E230 now? If I remember correctly people were saying that boost mode was inferior to normal mode for defense back when E230 came out. I'm not disagreeing with using it in boost mode (I always enjoyed using it unless the custom specifically called for normal mode), I'm just interested in hearing how opinions might have changed.

As long as GCF is on the list, CF should remain by its side. Cake put it really well in his post, though I'll reiterate some of what he said: in my experience they are sooooo similar in performance, such that even if some tests show GCF is marginally better, I can't imagine the difference would be large enough for it to not be perfectly viable to choose CF instead if one is looking for a tamer movement pattern.

There is no real need to remove SD. Sure, it's not that popular, but that doesn't make it any less of a good stamina bottom.

I wouldn't complain if right-spin B: D ended up being added at this point. I tend to agree that SA165 is better for spin equalizers, but using it with stuff like Duo for use against left-spin isn't HORRIBLE. I'm not sure it's good enough to be listed, mind you, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised if one day it creeped on to the list.

I loooooove TB for tall stamina; it has served me well so far and continues to do so. On a similar note, I love that Duo 230MB was moved to stamina since it can't claim it has defense capabilities by virtue of its tall track anymore. I suppose one could argue that wobblers are stamina/attack hybrids, but really, it's not like they're KOing anything.

(Jun. 28, 2014  1:53 AM)Kai-V Wrote: I unfortunately do not have time to try it, but just to throw some physics here in case it convinces either side : a tire needs the friction and the impulse to rotate and make the car move forward. Technically, CF is made of only rounded plastic, which does not offer much friction. On the other side though, GCF has cogs that could indeed stop it from rotating, but at the same time, each impulse to eventually move technically creates an added impulse due to the sudden fall of the rotating cog in contact with the floor. Think about that huge wheel at the end of every episode of The Price Is Right. That could be negligible, but hey, not much else explains the difference, unless the diametre is actually dissimilar.

Technically CF should have more friction because its unperturbed ring will have more surface area touching the ground at any given time than GCF's gap-filled gear, as that is the main determining factor in how strong the force of friction is. I don't have the equations in front of me but I'd wager a single large force of friction would be stronger than several, much smaller forces acting at the same time.
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