Even if they are basically equal in Stamina, Deathscyther has severe vulnerabilities that Odin doesn't. It's counter-able by Valkyrie Heavy Claw and many Attack-types.
Ban Odin Heavy Defense ?
Just a friendly suggestion, maybe we should wait for the rest of the beyblade burst beyblades coming out this spring and see what happens. I heard that there are going to be some evolution's to the burst of the sort, if odin doesn't evolve, then maybe an evolved burst beyblade could possibly defeat it, just my opinion. I would also suggest just ripping the heck out of your beyblade trying to make odin burst or make a stadium out with valkyrie or whatever attack type combinations you have.
Please see Kai-V's post a few posts up:
(Jan. 25, 2016 2:07 AM)Kai-V Wrote:(Jan. 25, 2016 2:03 AM)RagerBlade Wrote: I think we should wait until Burst starts expanding before any ban. For all we know the Dual layers will completely outclass all the Beys out right now. If it's still a problem after many new releases have occur than we should discuss a ban. All the tournaments going on right now are while we are still exploring the Burst metagame.
We cannot afford to have five more months of Odin Heavy Defense dominating. Do you realise that this is when Dual Layers will come out ? The problem is now and we cannot wait for a solution to be released in the future, because tournaments will keep happening until then.
Also, shouldn't this thread be in Beyblade General? Just asking since the F230 ban threads were over there.
It actually makes more sense to have it here, and in retrospect the F230 ban discussion should have happened here too.
well this blew up since I started this draft last night
I have actually never used Odin Heavy Defense in a tournament, so my opinion is probably less valid than anyone else here, but I have used other Odin variants (Odin Ring Defense and Odin Heavy Blow) and have seen others using Odin Heavy Defense. You should probably take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.
I think the ban should be Odin + Heavy. From what I know of Burst matchups 3 things can consistently beat Odin Heavy Defense, Xtreme-based Attackers, Tornado Stallers, and Odin Heavy Blow. Xtreme takes a good bit of skill to use, and the Tornado Stallers and OHB can only beat it with a strong launch, no different than if you were to use OHD normally. Also, using OHB to counter OHD is just using more Odin to beat Odin, which doesn't really solve the problem.
My tournament experience with Odin had me losing in the first match with Odin Ring Defense against Kerbeus Heavy Blow. TheGrimRipper13 Burst me the first two times, so I tried weak-launching, and he still got a late-game Burst on me. Next I faced *Ginga*'s Deathscyther Spread Accel with Odin Heavy Blow and was able to defeat him 3-0 (2 Bursts, 1 OS I believe). Third was geetster99 using Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme, who I also beat 3-0 (I know there was a Burst in there, but I can't remember the other 2 ways I won). I used OHB again vs. LadyRamkin's Kerbeus Spread Survive and lost 0-3 (all KOs). In the tiebreaker geetster used Odin Heavy Defense against me, and I made a bad call by switching to the Beylauncher from the Long Winder when using Deathscyther Spread Accel.
I personally think that Odin Heavy Blow is more of a problem combo than Odin Heavy Defense because OHB has the same semi-aggressive properties as Needle in addition to having similar Stamina capabilities. You aren't a sitting duck and have some chance of avoiding Xtreme combos. After running down Ginga's Deathscyther staller and geetster's Xtreme using Blow I can say that I would enter almost any matchup (aside from those Kerbeus combos which I'm hoping were flukes) confidently using Odin Heavy Blow. Odin Heavy Blow can defeat Odin Heavy Defense's already skill/strength-blocked counters as well as Odin Heavy Defense itself. I even did some tests to compare the combos vs. Xcalibur Heavy Xtreme.
Others may not get the exact same results as I did using Odin Heavy Blow, but I definitely think it's more of a problem than Odin Heavy Defense. Not only did OHB beat Xcalibur pretty badly, I don't think I've ever seen a combination with such varied ways of defeating an opponent.
Regardless of whether OHB is more threatening than OHD, I still think the best solution at the moment is to ban Odin + Heavy. This way, we get rid of OHD and OHB, as well as cutting the ground out from under potential untested problem combos like Odin Heavy Needle and Odin Heavy Survive.
Now I want to reply to some comments that popped up while I was away, I wanted to finish the draft I had in my head, before adding new things onto it.
EDIT: fixed this up now that I have some spare time.
I have actually never used Odin Heavy Defense in a tournament, so my opinion is probably less valid than anyone else here, but I have used other Odin variants (Odin Ring Defense and Odin Heavy Blow) and have seen others using Odin Heavy Defense. You should probably take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.
I think the ban should be Odin + Heavy. From what I know of Burst matchups 3 things can consistently beat Odin Heavy Defense, Xtreme-based Attackers, Tornado Stallers, and Odin Heavy Blow. Xtreme takes a good bit of skill to use, and the Tornado Stallers and OHB can only beat it with a strong launch, no different than if you were to use OHD normally. Also, using OHB to counter OHD is just using more Odin to beat Odin, which doesn't really solve the problem.
My tournament experience with Odin had me losing in the first match with Odin Ring Defense against Kerbeus Heavy Blow. TheGrimRipper13 Burst me the first two times, so I tried weak-launching, and he still got a late-game Burst on me. Next I faced *Ginga*'s Deathscyther Spread Accel with Odin Heavy Blow and was able to defeat him 3-0 (2 Bursts, 1 OS I believe). Third was geetster99 using Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme, who I also beat 3-0 (I know there was a Burst in there, but I can't remember the other 2 ways I won). I used OHB again vs. LadyRamkin's Kerbeus Spread Survive and lost 0-3 (all KOs). In the tiebreaker geetster used Odin Heavy Defense against me, and I made a bad call by switching to the Beylauncher from the Long Winder when using Deathscyther Spread Accel.
I personally think that Odin Heavy Blow is more of a problem combo than Odin Heavy Defense because OHB has the same semi-aggressive properties as Needle in addition to having similar Stamina capabilities. You aren't a sitting duck and have some chance of avoiding Xtreme combos. After running down Ginga's Deathscyther staller and geetster's Xtreme using Blow I can say that I would enter almost any matchup (aside from those Kerbeus combos which I'm hoping were flukes) confidently using Odin Heavy Blow. Odin Heavy Blow can defeat Odin Heavy Defense's already skill/strength-blocked counters as well as Odin Heavy Defense itself. I even did some tests to compare the combos vs. Xcalibur Heavy Xtreme.
tests (Click to View)
Others may not get the exact same results as I did using Odin Heavy Blow, but I definitely think it's more of a problem than Odin Heavy Defense. Not only did OHB beat Xcalibur pretty badly, I don't think I've ever seen a combination with such varied ways of defeating an opponent.
Regardless of whether OHB is more threatening than OHD, I still think the best solution at the moment is to ban Odin + Heavy. This way, we get rid of OHD and OHB, as well as cutting the ground out from under potential untested problem combos like Odin Heavy Needle and Odin Heavy Survive.
Now I want to reply to some comments that popped up while I was away, I wanted to finish the draft I had in my head, before adding new things onto it.
Spoiler (Click to View)
EDIT: fixed this up now that I have some spare time.
With a comparably strong launch, I honestly see no way for Tornado Stallers to even beat Odin Heavy Defense, let alone consistently do so. There is just no physics way this can be true if both launches have the same strength.
Oh and 1234beyblade, I want to know how you manage to get anything good out of Xcalibur because I was preparing to write a Beywiki draft about it and how it is too irregular and wide to be good for anything hah.
Oh and 1234beyblade, I want to know how you manage to get anything good out of Xcalibur because I was preparing to write a Beywiki draft about it and how it is too irregular and wide to be good for anything hah.
I really think that this should be explored more:
because
If it's the case that a player can gain the skill to use Extreme to effectively beat OHD, then no ban should be placed on it. If it were the case that Xtreme does well against it, then players should just practice their shooting, no?
(Jan. 24, 2016 4:58 PM)Zoroaste Wrote: In my humble opinion, I don't think we need to ban OHD. In my tests I have found that VHX (still not sure about VFX, but maybe that too) can take it out pretty well. I have found OHN to be much more powerful, because it can avoid the attacker really well. You definitely need to practice with and wear down Xtreme to get good with it, but once you do, you should be able to take out OHD over 50% of the time.
because
(Jan. 24, 2016 5:16 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: But I'm also of the opinion that right now, maybe we don't need to do anything. I really do think that Xtreme-based combos are viable against OHD. Of course, the problem is that there's a much higher skill barrier to using Xtreme than OHD. That's the main drawback.
If it's the case that a player can gain the skill to use Extreme to effectively beat OHD, then no ban should be placed on it. If it were the case that Xtreme does well against it, then players should just practice their shooting, no?
![[Image: IkkiSignature.jpg]](https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/Gigamew/IkkiSignature.jpg)
Well, yes and no because they will not consistently defeat it either.
This is obviously off topic but when i use Xcalibur i launch as hard as i can right on the first ridge from the middle of the stadium with a mildy used Xtreme. That's all there is to it, i think.
Great post Wombat. I'm also of the opinion that if we have to ban something, banning Odin + Heavy together makes the most sense rather than banning Heavy altogether (as I'd previously suggested).
One thing:
Libra came out way before RF did. That said, it's not like it was hard to outspin MF Libra C145WB so I was pretty surprised to read this as well. I know Libra was a dominant force but was this really the combo that did most of the damage?
For those of you wondering how Japan could have possibly not noticed how great Odin was: pretty much nobody used pre-HWS Pegasis for Attack-types in WBO tournaments during the early MFB era. Wolborg 4 wasn't hugely popular until, like, recently. Sometimes something just gets hugely overlooked.
One thing:
Quote:I wasn't aware that MF Libra C145WB was the problem combo back in the day, I always MF Pegasis 145RF was able to defeat that easily. My impression was that the problem combo was MF Libra CH120RF (Anti Attack so it beat Attack, could KO Stamina and sometimes Libra Defense, but that was beating Libra with more Libra), but with a worn WB being as semi-aggressive as Odin Heavy Blow might be this makes more sense.
Libra came out way before RF did. That said, it's not like it was hard to outspin MF Libra C145WB so I was pretty surprised to read this as well. I know Libra was a dominant force but was this really the combo that did most of the damage?
For those of you wondering how Japan could have possibly not noticed how great Odin was: pretty much nobody used pre-HWS Pegasis for Attack-types in WBO tournaments during the early MFB era. Wolborg 4 wasn't hugely popular until, like, recently. Sometimes something just gets hugely overlooked.
London was mentioned in the thread and having been at that tourney I though i'd through in my two cents. No one in the UK uses attack types. I used one in one match and managed to beat the OHD so I don't really think's so amazing against attack types especially considering i'm horrible with attack types in burst. Also I thought that Odin was weaker than Deathscyther against attack due to the massive pointed sections. Also i'd argue that if you banned odin everyone would just go back to using Deathscyther.
I think Heavy and Odin should get banned as soon as possible because they just dominate almost the intire meta game right now and I'm really sick of seeing Odin and Heavy all the time. It makes the game less intesesting and less exiting and right now it all depends on launch power.
This is a video I made when I first got my xcalibur. As you can see the xtreme isn't even worn and it can KO the bajezus out of Odin Heavy Defense without bursting very much, in other tests i've done, xcalibur heavy xtreme seems to burst odin or get burst' by odin pretty equally. odin obviously can os xhx 100% of the time if there isn't a burst or ko, but there are usually a lot of KOs. by xcalibur.
Xcalibur Heavy Xtreme vs. Odin Heavy Defense
Attack types should take a decent amount of skill to use... it kinda seems like banning earth 90wd or something, sure if nobody can use rf attack, then it's clearly OP. Soon enough tho, everyone will have their xtremes and have time to practice with it enough to be effective imo. Also there are lots more parts to come soon that could counter odin for all we know...
I feel like banning odin is a little pointless at the moment but it wouldn't really bother me either. A trial ban would probably be best.
I am all for going ahead and making a limited and standard burst format. Seems logical if we're going to start banning things.
Xcalibur Heavy Xtreme vs. Odin Heavy Defense
Attack types should take a decent amount of skill to use... it kinda seems like banning earth 90wd or something, sure if nobody can use rf attack, then it's clearly OP. Soon enough tho, everyone will have their xtremes and have time to practice with it enough to be effective imo. Also there are lots more parts to come soon that could counter odin for all we know...
I feel like banning odin is a little pointless at the moment but it wouldn't really bother me either. A trial ban would probably be best.
I am all for going ahead and making a limited and standard burst format. Seems logical if we're going to start banning things.
Solo tests are always different from tournaments, and as I personally experienced, there were some lucky early hits in that video, otherwise Xcalibur usually ends up like in the before-last round.
This is also not like Limited at all ... There is such a huge difference to temporary bans like Libra in Metal Fight Beyblade and bans of complete series of parts like in the Limited format.
And yes, there will undoubtedly be better parts coming out later, but as I have stated many times already, we cannot afford to wait until those better pieces get released. It could be at least two months, probably five, before we get anything substantial, and there will be too many tournaments with the same circumstances during that time.
This is also not like Limited at all ... There is such a huge difference to temporary bans like Libra in Metal Fight Beyblade and bans of complete series of parts like in the Limited format.
And yes, there will undoubtedly be better parts coming out later, but as I have stated many times already, we cannot afford to wait until those better pieces get released. It could be at least two months, probably five, before we get anything substantial, and there will be too many tournaments with the same circumstances during that time.
Despite all the people saying attack isn't great against it it looked like it worked pretty well there... Although more testing should be done.
(Jan. 25, 2016 11:23 PM)Kai-V Wrote: Solo tests are always different from tournaments, and as I personally experienced, there were some lucky early hits in that video, otherwise Xcalibur usually ends up like in the before-last round.
This is also not like Limited at all ... There is such a huge difference to temporary bans like Libra in Metal Fight Beyblade and bans of complete series of parts like in the Limited format.
And yes, there will undoubtedly be better parts coming out later, but as I have stated many times already, we cannot afford to wait until those better pieces get released. It could be at least two months, probably five, before we get anything substantial, and there will be too many tournaments with the same circumstances during that time.
I can agree with all of that except for xcalibur getting outspun by odin most of the time, and when playing against other people, I get much better results with xtreme usually.
I do agree that the winning combos for every tournament shouldn't be full of OHD anymore, especially at AN, but at the same time, it will be hard to ever find a real counter to OHD in the meta game if it's banned completely.
Couldn't we make it optional tho? So we can study the game without OHD and continue to study the game with OHD also? Just in case we actually can find a counter.
Are those of you who wish for Odin Heavy Defense to remain legal doing so because you think the game will be worse without it, or because it's just better to not ban anything? Serious question and I don't think one answer is more valuable than another.
I haven't posted my opinion yet, but to me I think its the second choice, I think it is unwise to ban anything this early and with this rate of releases. It is not like F230, there is a near future with new parts , especially the Dual layer system which will obviously have a big impact on the meta. For those that compare this to Libra: Libra was banned because of one custom, Libra CH120RF. That thing was a monster that could destroy everything in the meta. This is not Libra. Just wait and see how things go.
![[Image: f759d58.gif]](https://i.imgsafe.org/f759d58.gif)
![[Image: rcFJUxo.png]](https://i.imgur.com/rcFJUxo.png)
Eh yo, Libra was not banned because of that combination at all. Have you all read the whole section about Libra's ban on Beywiki, or just the first part ? Read this part specifically : http://wiki.worldbeyblade.org/index.php?...Was_Banned
Also, for hopefully the last time, the Dual Layer system is not expected to come out before 3 to 5 months. This is too long. Never did we say that the ban of Odin+whatever would be permanent : obviously later, it will be reinstated, when the metagame is healthier.
Also, for hopefully the last time, the Dual Layer system is not expected to come out before 3 to 5 months. This is too long. Never did we say that the ban of Odin+whatever would be permanent : obviously later, it will be reinstated, when the metagame is healthier.
(Jan. 26, 2016 1:00 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: Are those of you who wish for Odin Heavy Defense to remain legal doing so because you think the game will be worse without it, or because it's just better to not ban anything? Serious question and I don't think one answer is more valuable than another.
I'd personally like to see how Beyblade Shogatsu, Beyblade: Star City Assault, and Amaterios Atlanta Assault go before deciding whether to do anything about Odin and/or Heavy. After these tournaments, players will have had basically two months from Xcalibur Force Xtreme's December 26th release to receive and practice using Attackers with Xtreme. I think that would then be a reasonable time to reevaluate OHD's place in the metagame.
![[Image: vwa_copy3_by_elcesplooshe_daejy2u-fullvi...Za8ANFHK5M]](https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/0779b042-834a-4ac6-9292-fab88a9af9cb/daejy2u-70e51d94-acbe-4593-ad69-5434d834b672.jpg/v1/fill/w_1024,h_317,q_75,strp/vwa_copy3_by_elcesplooshe_daejy2u-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9MzE3IiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvMDc3OWIwNDItODM0YS00YWM2LTkyOTItZmFiODhhOWFmOWNiXC9kYWVqeTJ1LTcwZTUxZDk0LWFjYmUtNDU5My1hZDY5LTU0MzRkODM0YjY3Mi5qcGciLCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9MTAyNCJ9XV0sImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl19.GJIQK2sXAJm5ScpS3pSVJ8KrA6Ru9qtE4Za8ANFHK5M)
Before, I had said I would want to have Odin banned, but going to reconsider my point now.
I had previously posted this in the Amaterios discussion thread:
I decided to (informally) try it again yesterday, and it seemed to be KOing or Bursting Odin 7 out of 10 of the time. I will be trying to retest this on Tuesday, as this might be a reliable counter, but I really do want to retest this to see. The problem is the rarity of Amaterios, as it's almost like Quetz. I also was playing around a little with Xcalibur Heavy Xtreme and found it Bursting OHD 4 out of 5 times. But I had played arounded with it a day earlier and could not get it to Burst Odin one out of of ~7 times. XHX is something I definitely want to test more, as it could potentially be good, from what others have said.
Does Odin Heavy Defense really deserve a ban? Possibly. Besides Amaterios, it seems only Xcalibur and Valkryie are the only things to really defeat OHD. The frightening part is the tooth wear of Valkryie, and while this may be a well known fact, without a mint Valkryie or one that has only been used for less than 20 battles, than I'm afraid that it will self burst too often, even at a weak launch. I have a worn Valkryie, and can do some Testings (on Tuesday) with it at a regular and weak launch.
I had previously posted this in the Amaterios discussion thread:
(Jan. 09, 2016 3:11 AM)Hato Wrote: Did testings with Amaterios Heavy Xtreme against Odin Heavy Defense:
Amaterios Heavy Xtreme vs Odin Heavy Defense
AHX: 13 (6 BF, 7 KO)
OHD: 7 (2 KO, 5 OS)
AHX win rate: 65%
I decided to (informally) try it again yesterday, and it seemed to be KOing or Bursting Odin 7 out of 10 of the time. I will be trying to retest this on Tuesday, as this might be a reliable counter, but I really do want to retest this to see. The problem is the rarity of Amaterios, as it's almost like Quetz. I also was playing around a little with Xcalibur Heavy Xtreme and found it Bursting OHD 4 out of 5 times. But I had played arounded with it a day earlier and could not get it to Burst Odin one out of of ~7 times. XHX is something I definitely want to test more, as it could potentially be good, from what others have said.
Does Odin Heavy Defense really deserve a ban? Possibly. Besides Amaterios, it seems only Xcalibur and Valkryie are the only things to really defeat OHD. The frightening part is the tooth wear of Valkryie, and while this may be a well known fact, without a mint Valkryie or one that has only been used for less than 20 battles, than I'm afraid that it will self burst too often, even at a weak launch. I have a worn Valkryie, and can do some Testings (on Tuesday) with it at a regular and weak launch.
(Jan. 26, 2016 1:00 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: Are those of you who wish for Odin Heavy Defense to remain legal doing so because you think the game will be worse without it, or because it's just better to not ban anything? Serious question and I don't think one answer is more valuable than another.A page or two ago I stated that I wouldn't post again in here, but this question is very important to this discussion and as one of the main opposers to the ban I decided I would clue people in.
I have not tested a meta game without Odin (I've hardly tested burst to begin with), but I feel like it would be very attack oriented. This would slightly lead to what's occurring in Canada and some other regions currently, attack would be out of proportion. Wouldn't the format become Attack and aggressive defense set ups just to counter attack? The meta would be worse than is has ever been in burst. Who wants all these aggressive match ups in a format like burst that has so much variance to begin with?
Right now I think the format is quite balanced, Odin can fight against some attack while not completely shutting them down, deathscyther will outspin Odin, but Odin can still have a chance and finally Valkyrie beats Deathscyther most of the time. There is also a few niche combos here and there. I know some places are having more troubles than others but it would be awesome if at Beyblade shogatsu or one of the upcoming burst events of someone would just try using extreme most of the day and see how it ends up. It could be risky if you are unprepared, but it could definitely end this whole debate.
(Jan. 26, 2016 1:20 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Eh yo, Libra was not banned because of that combination at all. Have you all read the whole section about Libra's ban on Beywiki, or just the first part ? Read this part specifically : http://wiki.worldbeyblade.org/index.php?...Was_Banned
Also, for hopefully the last time, the Dual Layer system is not expected to come out before 3 to 5 months. This is too long. Never did we say that the ban of Odin+whatever would be permanent : obviously later, it will be reinstated, when the metagame is healthier.
Was that not a factor in it's ban? Or because it was too versatile, in that case why wasn't Gravity banned?
Also, how long did F230(G)CF conquer tournaments before even getting a trial ban? I don't think anybody has shown me, a normal user, any proof that Odin Heavy Defense or Survive is broken.
Thunder Dome, Deathscyther does not really consistently outspin Odin Heavy Defense though. Also, what happened to people understanding that a metagame with more Attack is healthier anyway ?
Libra CH120RF was just one of the aspects, really not a main factor. I am also not sure what other proof you want besides it appearing on almost all Winning Combinations lists, and we probably did provide other proof ... Also keep in mind that F230CF/GCF came at the end of a format, with hundreds of customizations to try (again) to make sure that it was really overpowered or too easy to use and win with, while this is early on, it dominates and the amount of potential counters can quickly be considered.
Libra CH120RF was just one of the aspects, really not a main factor. I am also not sure what other proof you want besides it appearing on almost all Winning Combinations lists, and we probably did provide other proof ... Also keep in mind that F230CF/GCF came at the end of a format, with hundreds of customizations to try (again) to make sure that it was really overpowered or too easy to use and win with, while this is early on, it dominates and the amount of potential counters can quickly be considered.