(Jun. 04, 2019 2:42 AM)Kei Wrote: Thanks for the feedback everyone! It's a complex issue that raises a lot of questions about how competitive play should be handled, what is fair, what some people have experienced versus what others haven't, and more.Remove the 2 point burst rule and try replacing it with a 2 point KO rule. Not only are most attack beys in the meta KO based, but you won't get the stupid opposite spin self burst that is suprizing common. Plus I really haven't seen the 2 point burst rule help attack that much because most good beys are disporportionally hard to burst when compared to how easily they get KOed. Plus since KO attack is harder to use yet more versatile against both spin directions, it could be a high risk for much higher reward than before.
For instance, I don't find pP as scary as a lot of people seem to find it. Anecdotally, I can even add that at BEYBLADE NORTH 2019 last week it was bursted multiple times by 超A, KOed by 超V multiple times (for third place!) ... But that's Beyblade; there's so many variables to be considered and I think it is important to remain open-minded and try to consider how things are on average. Those examples could have been freak accidents, or maybe they are indicative of something more objective about how those parts perform against pP.
I'm leaning more towards wanting to remove B3 and/or Bearing or something along those lines, but my feelings are also not set in stone, which is why I posed the question here with new data the community has gathered over the past few months. I understand that my experiences and opinion are not absolute. I just want to see how other people interpret it based on their experiences.
There's also other ways to approach this such as the removal of the 2 Point Burst in First Stage, but that creates other issues which I personally believe would be detrimental for Organized Play (as it relates to incentive for using attack types, making stamina even safer, the Final Stage with 2 Point Bursts still having to contend with an unburstable combo). But it's a divisive issue and I know there's other people who would be fine with removing it.
(Jun. 04, 2019 12:57 AM)Shindog Wrote: I have started testing TT bearing with Gen (幻). It pretty much doesn’t burst. As a matter of fact WF.OOW.Br幻 bursted B3.OOW.Br a couple of times out of 16ish rounds.
Wow, really? Although, I guess the 幻 Weight is going too be another interesting discussion for us to all have as more people start to get and experiment with it haha.
(Jun. 04, 2019 2:59 AM)CitrusNinja3 Wrote:(Jun. 04, 2019 12:21 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: Feelings don't matter for bans; facts do. And the facts don't support what you want.
I could cherrypick the same sort of pattern from winning combos with Hell Salamander Xt+/At/Br and Perfect Phoenix Xt+/At/Br, but there's no reason to point that to people who won't listen. Yes, Balkesh with Bearing is good; that's why it appears in the winning combos, and that's the only thing you've proven. It's very beatable and you know it. It's way more beatable than Perfect Phoenix. Burst Standard has a stagnant and boring meta. Why cut the number of viable layers down from 4 to 3, and make it stagnate even more?
In the past few months you haven't run any Standard tournaments where Balkesh B3 is banned or where Hasbro bearing is banned. Nothing has changed; show the work before you start on this again. You tried Classic tournaments with all dash drivers; you could easily institute per-tournament bans for either B3, Hasbro Bearing, or the combination of both. You don't, but you could.
I used B3 a few times back in February. But I also used a lot of Hell Salamander back in February. It was a decent counter to the surprising amount of ChoZ V at the time, and has fairly good all around defenses. But it can and does lose. It can lose to ChoZ Spriggan. it can lose to Crush Ragnaruk. It'll lose to Judgement Joker. It loses to Hell Salamander. It can lose to Perfect Phoenix. It can even lose to Archer Hercules.
Will it burst? No. Extremely rarely. Will Perfect Phoenix? Rarely. Will any defense type burst? Not as much.
You're trying to solve the wrong problem. But you do you.
I'm not disagreeing with the fact that B3 is beatable, but you can't compare it to Perfect Phoenix or even Hell Salamander. pP can burst easily to the hands of Cho-Z Achilles and hS can be defeated by a dedicated Left-Spin Attack Type. Balkesh on the other hand, can't be outspun by a Right-Spin Bey without the Wall Frame and Bearing Driver. It's already unlikely that a Right-Spin Bey will be seen with Bearing, so that's almost completely out of the equation. I have noticed that Cho-Z Spriggan Sting Bearing (which loses many same-spin matchups) can outspin B3.0B.Br, but it could result in long matches that go by one point at a time. Even dedicated Left-Spin Attackers have a really tough time getting B3 halfway to Burst, so Deck Format battles will be a pain to go through. Overall, I know B3 on Bearing is beatable, but it's becoming more and more of a nuisance that people don't expect to go up against unless they already know their opponent from previous battles.
(Jun. 09, 2019 11:56 AM)DreamBlade Wrote:(Jun. 04, 2019 2:59 AM)CitrusNinja3 Wrote:Spoiler (Click to View)
Actually sometimes I put bearing on right rotation only if i know I'm facing a left rotation. I also battled after school with Balkesh and guess what, even without bearing it's still unburstable. It must be the design of Hasbro's Balkesh. The slides and the smooth layer is a perfect combination. I used Balkesh in my first tournament. Mostly in first and final stage. I used it more than my drain Fafnir combo. If I were to use the same combo again against cho z Achilles, I think there would be a difference. Let me do that right now.
(Jun. 09, 2019 12:38 PM)CitrusNinja3 Wrote:I think salamander is for that. But we should restrict balkesh. But we need to make sure it doesn't have the same unbursting as tje bearing combo. I'm not sure which Hasbro defense tip has the weakest spring. I also used Balkesh as an attack once.(Jun. 09, 2019 11:56 AM)DreamBlade Wrote: Actually sometimes I put bearing on right rotation only if i know I'm facing a left rotation. I also battled after school with Balkesh and guess what, even without bearing it's still unburstable. It must be the design of Hasbro's Balkesh. The slides and the smooth layer is a perfect combination. I used Balkesh in my first tournament. Mostly in first and final stage. I used it more than my drain Fafnir combo. If I were to use the same combo again against cho z Achilles, I think there would be a difference. Let me do that right now.
The combination of B3’s good slopes, smooth shape, and Left-Spin nature all help it succeed on Bearing so it’s really hard to Burst and too risky to KO. The only ways to beat B3 are by using a really good Left-Spin Stamina Bey or trying to beat it with LAD.
(Jun. 09, 2019 3:47 PM)Ardmore Bladers Wrote: Actually, at Yami’s Tournament Episode 5, LazerBeamz burst my B3 00W Br with CZS 10?B Op in the finals match which was surprising, but it’s important to note that my B3 had fairly worn slopes.
(Jun. 09, 2019 3:47 PM)Ardmore Bladers Wrote: Actually, at Yami’s Tournament Episode 5, LazerBeamz burst my B3 00W Br with CZS 10?B Op in the finals match which was surprising, but it’s important to note that my B3 had fairly worn slopes.
(Jun. 09, 2019 4:57 PM)Ash_Ketchum_007 Wrote:(Jun. 09, 2019 3:47 PM)Ardmore Bladers Wrote: Actually, at Yami’s Tournament Episode 5, LazerBeamz burst my B3 00W Br with CZS 10?B Op in the finals match which was surprising, but it’s important to note that my B3 had fairly worn slopes.
CZS was in left spin? Also, of all layers, I wonder why he chose CZS.....
(Jun. 09, 2019 5:27 PM)LazerBeamz Wrote: I chose CZS because Operate works very well with it for attack. Basically, CZS's weight combined with its increased burst resistance (due to burst stoppers), 00 Bump's extra weight, and operates agressive attack mode allows it to be very effective against same spin opponents. Left spin CZS.00B.Op can burst left spin beys like hS.00W.Br and hS.7G.At. I was anticipating hS being used and had CZS in left spin on bearing to earn burst points. Also the burst stoppers allow Operate to work incredibly well as there is little to no risk of bursting on CZS. Defense mode operate on CZS can also OS B3 bearing, so its versatility is why I used it.Woah. That is some crazy thought process and testing right there. Also, how much did the combo jump in general?
(Jun. 09, 2019 6:11 PM)Ash_Ketchum_007 Wrote:The combo does jump a fair bit but the jumps are more like short hops due to the weight. The hops really help with destabilizing same spin opponents and and making them skip along their teeth. The heavy weight of CZS and 00B also makes operate more predictable in attack mode then it was when it first realeased with Hell Salamander. The weight creep has helped stabilize Operate's formerly unpredictable movements. The heavy weight tends to make Operates attack mode head consistently towards the center of the stadium, allowing it to aggressively hit leftspin Atomic and Bearing combos when they are in the center. The only real drawback is using defense mode and launching too hard. You risk going into attack mode. The newer red Operates from the recent random boosters are better with this issue than the original Operate from Hell Salamnder but it is still an issue.(Jun. 09, 2019 5:27 PM)LazerBeamz Wrote: I chose CZS because Operate works very well with it for attack. Basically, CZS's weight combined with its increased burst resistance (due to burst stoppers), 00 Bump's extra weight, and operates agressive attack mode allows it to be very effective against same spin opponents. Left spin CZS.00B.Op can burst left spin beys like hS.00W.Br and hS.7G.At. I was anticipating hS being used and had CZS in left spin on bearing to earn burst points. Also the burst stoppers allow Operate to work incredibly well as there is little to no risk of bursting on CZS. Defense mode operate on CZS can also OS B3 bearing, so its versatility is why I used it.Woah. That is some crazy thought process and testing right there. Also, how much did the combo jump in general?
