[BURST LIMITED Proposal] Unban Ace, Slash, Erase, & Venom + GEN

Poll: Should ACE, SLASH, VENOM, and ERASE + GEN be unbanned from Burst limited?

Yes
32.00%
16
No
26.00%
13
Needs Testing First
40.00%
20
Indifferent
2.00%
1
Total: 100% 50 vote(s)
not slash Smile Smile
This is not an idea I can agree with.

Most bladers have a huge amount of trouble understanding the Burst Limited rules as is.

Now try explaining that to a very young blader who wants to use one of these layers with one of the layer weights they came with.

We don't have any kind of restriction in the rules where you can only use part A if you use it with part B. And we shouldn't start with that. The rules are hard enough for younger bladers to understand. Don't do this.

Gen is fairly common to anyone who's gotten a lot of the later GT Random Boosters, but certainly is not widespread.

You're just replacing one accessibility problem with another.

If you want to use Ace, Slash, Erase and Venom that badly, use the Hasbro versions. It's the same, right? Smile
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:48 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: This is not an idea I can agree with.

Most bladers have a huge amount of trouble understanding the Burst Limited rules as is.

Now try explaining that to a very young blader who wants to use one of these layers with one of the layer weights they came with.

We don't have any kind of restriction in the rules where you can only use part A if you use it with part B. And we shouldn't start with that. The rules are hard enough for younger bladers to understand. Don't do this.

Gen is fairly common to anyone who's gotten a lot of the later GT Random Boosters, but certainly is not widespread.

You're just replacing one accessibility problem with another.

If you want to use Ace, Slash, Erase and Venom that badly, use the Hasbro versions. It's the same, right? Smile
No, the hasbro versions are not the same. You can’t use TT drivers with them.
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:36 AM)6Jupiter5 Wrote:
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:32 AM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: If we are going to unban some get beys, then the get beys should be low tier. If we put high tier get beys unbanned than there will be no point in using evolution/Turbo beys anymore. My suggestion is if we are unbanning get beys we should unban some beys like.

Layers-Bushin Ashindra, Ace Dragon, Erase Devolos, Venom Devolos, heaven Pegasus, cosmo base, and possibly the slash base.
Chips-only decent chips like Fafnir, Bahamut, ashura, and dragon
Any other layers and chips would be completely to overpowered

Would you consider union speed mode?
No, even in speed mode it’s defense and attack are way to overpowered
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:55 AM)bladekid Wrote:
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:48 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: This is not an idea I can agree with.

Most bladers have a huge amount of trouble understanding the Burst Limited rules as is.

Now try explaining that to a very young blader who wants to use one of these layers with one of the layer weights they came with.

We don't have any kind of restriction in the rules where you can only use part A if you use it with part B. And we shouldn't start with that. The rules are hard enough for younger bladers to understand. Don't do this.

Gen is fairly common to anyone who's gotten a lot of the later GT Random Boosters, but certainly is not widespread.

You're just replacing one accessibility problem with another.

If you want to use Ace, Slash, Erase and Venom that badly, use the Hasbro versions. It's the same, right? Smile
No, the hasbro versions are not the same. You can’t use TT drivers with them.

Thanks for making this point bladekid. I've seen the redundancy argument be brought up a few times now, but Hasbro and TT have drastically different driver pools to work with.
Slash Achilles 00Expand Ultimate Reboot’ Gen (Sliding Shoot) Vs Drain Fafnir (MGC) 0Cross Atomic. I did ten rounds.

Results:

Slash Achilles: 30% (1 Burst 2 KO’s)

Drain Fafnir: 70% (6 OS’ 1 KO)

I’m gonna try Slash Valkyrie on Quick’ next.

Slash Achilles 00Expand Quick’ Gen (Sliding Shoot) Vs Drain Fafnir (MGC) 0Cross Atomic. I did ten rounds.

Results:

Slash Achilles: 20% (2 Burst’s)

Drain Fafnir: 80% (7 OS’ 1 KO)

Finally, Destroy’.

Slash Achilles 00Expand Destroy’ Gen (Sliding Shoot) Vs Drain Fafnir (MGC) 0Cross Atomic. I did ten rounds.

Results:

Slash Achilles: 10% (1 Burst)

Drain Fafnir: 90% (9 OS’

Venom Achilles 00Expand Ultimate Reboot’ (Sliding Shoot) Vs Drain Fafnir (MGC) 0Cross Atomic. I did ten rounds.

Results:

Venom Achilles: 50% (2 Burst’s 3 KO’s)

Drain Fafnir: 50% (5 OS’)
Anybody knows the weight of central (the weight on Master) because that could be an alternative to gen?
(Aug. 28, 2020  4:41 AM)6Jupiter5 Wrote: Anybody knows the weight of central (the weight on Master) because that could be an alternative to gen?

That is not a real Layer Weight. It is for Master only and simply serves as the layer weight for Master only.
(Aug. 28, 2020  4:53 AM)BuilderROB Wrote:
(Aug. 28, 2020  4:41 AM)6Jupiter5 Wrote: Anybody knows the weight of central (the weight on Master) because that could be an alternative to gen?

That is not a real Layer Weight. It is for Master only and simply serves as the layer weight for Master only.

But I think it would still work on other chips right? (I mean I don’t really know since I was going to get Master but I preordered Warudo Spriggan instead)
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:48 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: This is not an idea I can agree with.

Most bladers have a huge amount of trouble understanding the Burst Limited rules as is.

Now try explaining that to a very young blader who wants to use one of these layers with one of the layer weights they came with.

We don't have any kind of restriction in the rules where you can only use part A if you use it with part B. And we shouldn't start with that. The rules are hard enough for younger bladers to understand. Don't do this.

Gen is fairly common to anyone who's gotten a lot of the later GT Random Boosters, but certainly is not widespread.

You're just replacing one accessibility problem with another.

If you want to use Ace, Slash, Erase and Venom that badly, use the Hasbro versions. It's the same, right? Smile

Well, its not necessarily "you can only use part A if you use it with part B". Its more like "All GT layer weights are banned, except Gen." and "All GT layer bases are banned, except Ace, Slash, and Venom." (do not unban Erase) and "Diabolos 1 GT chip is banned." We could potentially ban other chips like Spriggan, Achilles, and Odin if we wanted to lower burst resistance if necessary.


You wouldn't be replacing one accessibility problem with another, you would be creating a more complex rule set. Which is different. Now, one way to resolve that issue of "what if a person wanted to use Ace but did own a Gen weight?" is why not just allow people to run no layer weight at all. There's no physical damage dealt to the bey if it has no layer weight. The lack of physical weight on the layer doesn't cause issues either. The top of the driver being exposed by the layer has already be done on Xcalibur single layer. There's no advantage to running NO WEIGHT over Gen either. The only argument to require a layer weight is because official WBBA rules requires the Gachi layers to have all 3 components. Its not like we have to follow all WBBA rules, and I don't think any uproar would happen either.
(Aug. 28, 2020  8:03 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote:
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:48 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: This is not an idea I can agree with.

Most bladers have a huge amount of trouble understanding the Burst Limited rules as is.

Now try explaining that to a very young blader who wants to use one of these layers with one of the layer weights they came with.

We don't have any kind of restriction in the rules where you can only use part A if you use it with part B. And we shouldn't start with that. The rules are hard enough for younger bladers to understand. Don't do this.

Gen is fairly common to anyone who's gotten a lot of the later GT Random Boosters, but certainly is not widespread.

You're just replacing one accessibility problem with another.

If you want to use Ace, Slash, Erase and Venom that badly, use the Hasbro versions. It's the same, right? Smile

Well, its not necessarily "you can only use part A if you use it with part B". Its more like "All GT layer weights are banned, except Gen." and "All GT layer bases are banned, except Ace, Slash, and Venom." (do not unban Erase) and "Diabolos 1 GT chip is banned." We could potentially ban other chips like Spriggan, Achilles, and Odin if we wanted to lower burst resistance if necessary.


You wouldn't be replacing one accessibility problem with another, you would be creating a more complex rule set. Which is different. Now, one way to resolve that issue of "what if a person wanted to use Ace but did own a Gen weight?" is why not just allow people to run no layer weight at all. There's no physical damage dealt to the bey if it has no layer weight. The lack of physical weight on the layer doesn't cause issues either. The top of the driver being exposed by the layer has already be done on Xcalibur single layer. There's no advantage to running NO WEIGHT over Gen either. The only argument to require a layer weight is because official WBBA rules requires the Gachi layers to have all 3 components. Its not like we have to follow all WBBA rules, and I don't think any uproar would happen either.

AirKingNeo Thanks for sharing! I'm interested in hearing more about your thoughts to not consider Erase. IIRC, in the #burst-limited discord channel, henwooja1 mentioned he had tested Erase and that "It's so incredibly bad defensive wise it's not even funny. Plus it has horrible stamina and handling of recoil so it gets destroyed by anything leftspin." henwooja1 do you mind weighing and sharing what you tested Erase against? If Erase is indeed too defensive I am happy to remove it from the proposal, but it seems like henwooja1 is providing some evidence against your statement, AirKingNeo.



Additionally, I wanted to take the time to highlight Wombat's recent test results for Ace in Burst Limited. 

You can find a link to the results here:

https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-BSL-Ace...pid1619144

Thanks for taking the time to do this Wombat!

When Judgment first released, I found that Ace was a solid Defensive counter for Judgment and projected that Hasbro Ace would be a solid defensive choice in Limited. Wombat's results are in line with this. It's also important to note Wombat's thought here:  

"Alter Chronos beat (Ace) pretty convincingly in most same spin matchups (when tested on Atomic and Revolve.) Ace seems to be a little too wide to work well with Revolve, where it was easily knocked off balance. Atomic vs Atomic the matchups were a bit closer (and there were a few rounds where aC almost bursted) but aC still tended to win even when it was launched first."

From his testing, I believe that (at least in Ace's case) unbanning Ace would allow players more defensive options without outclassing useful Burst Limited Parts like (aC), ultimately improving the META.



I also want to address why I suggested using GEN and not just using the layers without layer weights. Mana actually suggested the same when I was pitching this proposal. While I do agree that we do not need to follow the WBBA's rulings on GT Layers needing weights, allowing these layers to not use layer weights in Burst Limited opens up the opportunity for players to enter deck format with 3 GT layers. To me, this really feels against the spirit of Burst Limited. Locking these layers to GEN means that players could only use 1 GT combo in a Deck Format Match due to our ruling of not allowing repeated parts in Deck Format Matches.
LazerBeamz would you consider adding Bushin and maybe just possibly Union (in speed mode)
Yeah I’ll get right into testing that later today LazerBeamz. Don’t have my beys with me atm but I will show why I think it’s not that OP
(Aug. 28, 2020  2:53 PM)6Jupiter5 Wrote: LazerBeamz would you consider adding Bushin and maybe just possibly Union (in speed mode)

Sorry for my delayed response 6Jupiter5 . I did give these two layer bases a thought, as well as Grand and Rock. I am definitely hesitant in adding anything that leans into stamina, as I think there are plenty of viable God/ SwitchStrike and Cho-Z options for stamina in Limited. 

Bushin seems like it could be a solid mix of stamina and defense in this format (similar to how Perfect Phoenix has behaved in Standard) which could be dangerous. I do want to admit that I have not tested Bushin in this format yet. 

In regards to Union, I think restricting it to just Speed Mode and GEN seems to overcomplicate my proposal further. I am not opposed to adding these layers in through testing, but I feel like Slash, Ace, Venom, and Erase are all pretty low lifts to add into the format without disrupting the current balance.
(Aug. 28, 2020  7:11 PM)LazerBeamz Wrote:
(Aug. 28, 2020  2:53 PM)6Jupiter5 Wrote: LazerBeamz would you consider adding Bushin and maybe just possibly Union (in speed mode)

Sorry for my delayed response 6Jupiter5 . I did give these two layer bases a thought, as well as Grand and Rock. I am definitely hesitant in adding anything that leans into stamina, as I think there are plenty of viable God/ SwitchStrike and Cho-Z options for stamina in Limited. 

Bushin seems like it could be a solid mix of stamina and defense in this format (similar to how Perfect Phoenix has behaved in Standard) which could be dangerous. I do want to admit that I have not tested Bushin in this format yet. 

In regards to Union, I think restricting it to just Speed Mode and GEN seems to overcomplicate my proposal further. I am not opposed to adding these layers in through testing, but I feel like Slash, Ace, Venom, and Erase are all pretty low lifts to add into the format without disrupting the current balance.

That’s cool
I think Cosmo would be a great addition to this list.
(Aug. 28, 2020  2:51 PM)LazerBeamz Wrote: AirKingNeo Thanks for sharing! I'm interested in hearing more about your thoughts to not consider Erase. IIRC, in the #burst-limited discord channel, henwooja1 mentioned he had tested Erase and that "It's so incredibly bad defensive wise it's not even funny. Plus it has horrible stamina and handling of recoil so it gets destroyed by anything leftspin." henwooja1 do you mind weighing and sharing what you tested Erase against? If Erase is indeed too defensive I am happy to remove it from the proposal, but it seems like henwooja1 is providing some evidence against your statement, AirKingNeo.

From his testing, I believe that (at least in Ace's case) unbanning Ace would allow players more defensive options without outclassing useful Burst Limited Parts like (aC), ultimately improving the META.

I also want to address why I suggested using GEN and not just using the layers without layer weights. Mana actually suggested the same when I was pitching this proposal. While I do agree that we do not need to follow the WBBA's rulings on GT Layers needing weights, allowing these layers to not use layer weights in Burst Limited opens up the opportunity for players to enter deck format with 3 GT layers. To me, this really feels against the spirit of Burst Limited. Locking these layers to GEN means that players could only use 1 GT combo in a Deck Format Match due to our ruling of not allowing repeated parts in Deck Format Matches.

I'm going to test Erase myself, but while I do know its same spin performance is absolutely awful, I'm worried about it being a better version of Geist Fafnir in terms of defense. I already think gF should be banned in Limited due to a lack of meaningful counters (dF on Atomic and right spin beys on Eternal/Universe/Destroy). Erase looks to have a better defensive shape than Geist and definitely better burst resistance (because of a Spriggan chip and Gen).

I don't know if aC is even a useful part in Limited, but if Ace Gen has that poor of same spin stamina, it doesn't seem like a bad thing to try.

Allowing "No Weight" would make the format more accessible, which in my opinion is more important than "spirit". Cause to me, the spirit of the format is God/Evolution layers (which is why I'm resistant to powercreep), but its totally possible for someone to use Turbo and Rise layers purely in a deck.



On the topic of Union (Speed), Bushin, and Cosmo, I think Bushin and Cosmo might be a bit much. I think you've got to go really weak. Like Ace almost seems perfectly balanced, and I see Bushin as an upgrade to Ace by having a better shape, so I wouldn't want that. Same with Cosmo mostly likely. It could be the large size of these layers make them bad for stamina and better for defense. Union (Speed) I'll probably test myself cause I like Union. We don't yet have a baseline for what kind of GT layer with Gen would be acceptable for attack since the only Rise layer I know of that is considered good for attack is Judgement.
(Aug. 28, 2020  7:54 PM)YishYash Wrote: I think Cosmo would be a great addition to this list.
Cosmo imo has too good stamina and is too round to add to the list. It was even being used on Gen and Hybrid in standard when Hybrid was just released so I definitely don’t think it should be allowed if that is put in to the conversation
(Aug. 28, 2020  10:46 PM)henwooja1 Wrote:
(Aug. 28, 2020  7:54 PM)YishYash Wrote: I think Cosmo would be a great addition to this list.
Cosmo imo has too good stamina and is too round to add to the list. It was even being used on Gen and Hybrid in standard when Hybrid was just released so I definitely don’t think it should be allowed if that is put in to the conversation

Yeah, but Hybrid is banned in Limited lol
(Aug. 28, 2020  10:54 PM)CheetoBlader Wrote: Yeah, but Hybrid is banned in Limited lol

Yes but even the presence of it in standard over something else is unsettling. It feels like a side grade/upgrade to mG which I don’t really like the idea of
I don’t usually go back on my word, but looking at this more, I’m starting to realize the benefits of having these layers on Gen in the meta. We’ll have to see with future bans, but testing them myself, I don’t see any of these layers turning to to spamable combos.
(Aug. 28, 2020  7:11 PM)LazerBeamz Wrote:
(Aug. 28, 2020  2:53 PM)6Jupiter5 Wrote: LazerBeamz would you consider adding Bushin and maybe just possibly Union (in speed mode)

Sorry for my delayed response 6Jupiter5 . I did give these two layer bases a thought, as well as Grand and Rock. I am definitely hesitant in adding anything that leans into stamina, as I think there are plenty of viable God/ SwitchStrike and Cho-Z options for stamina in Limited. 

Bushin seems like it could be a solid mix of stamina and defense in this format (similar to how Perfect Phoenix has behaved in Standard) which could be dangerous. I do want to admit that I have not tested Bushin in this format yet. 

In regards to Union, I think restricting it to just Speed Mode and GEN seems to overcomplicate my proposal further. I am not opposed to adding these layers in through testing, but I feel like Slash, Ace, Venom, and Erase are all pretty low lifts to add into the format without disrupting the current balance.
Having Rock would allow us to effectively create an unburstable/tough to burst w2 layer which would be more attack oriented layer and would potentially be a new attack based threat in the meta since w2’s poor burst resistance is what prevented it from excelling in the first place -so I think Rock should see some testing first. As for Grand it would be be very similar to Br which was good for destabilization and defense although it may be better since it is smoother which would theoretically mean it would have better stamina basically slightly patching up a minor problem Br had. I think I would have to side with you on Grand since it may or may not be too risky on the meta if you consider destabilize defense a threat. Also wanted to say that I definitely like your idea
(Aug. 29, 2020  6:10 PM)Ryuga......Win Wrote: What bout sen or ten

Allowing Sen and/or Ten would make it possible to use more than one GT layer in a deck, which from what I can tell, is something that LazerBeamz doesn't want happening. Also, even though those are two of the lighter layer weights, it still adds about 6 or 7 more grams to the layer. In my honest opinion, I don't think that would play out too well in Limited.