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Assault' ban in Classic does not make sense

Jan. 31, 2020  6:47 PM
 
(I've decided to make my own thread about the topic because I think it's important that criticism of how the WBO balances their metas should get a larger focus than be limited to the latest rule discussion thread, and I need a lot of room to prove my point.)

You read the title. You know what this thread is about. Let's get right into it.

First, allow me to state my opinion on whether Assault' should or shouldn't be banned. The thread is for me to prove the ban doesn't make sense, not to say whether it warrants a ban or not. I think Assault' might be ban-worthy, but, as this thread will conclude, there isn't enough evidence to support it. However, if Assault' should be banned, then so should Trans' for having similar and more tournament results as well as doing similar things gameplay.

Tournaments where Trans' and/or Assault' is used in the top 3:

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As we can see, Trans' topped 3 tournaments and Assault' was in only 1 tournament.
Here are some of the comments of the players who were at that tournament:

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Red Ninja actually posted a video, so let's look at the matches in there that use Assault' and Trans':

Group Stage:
Spoiler (Click to View)
On face, Odin looks good, but many of the combos it faced weren't really good, so I wouldn't really count any matches except O.H.assault' vs D.R.R (I also would not count W2.G.T' vs DiS.H.R).

Finals Stage (this will just be combo vs combo):
Spoiler (Click to View)
Here we can really tell that Assault' does well, but most decks don't seem to have something that was prepared to beat it in the first place. The only meta or close to meta stamina combos were DiF.G.O, D.R.R, and DgF.Y.Ab-S. DiF lost, D.R.R one, and DgF was 50/50. There was barely any sign of K2/A2.H.R/O.

Now if there was testing done to prove more matchups, I could understand, but unfortunately the reasoning for banning Assault' was, "Recent events have proven αssault' to perform similarly to the banned Accel' and Zephyr' Drivers." No testing was done to prove it as there doesn't seem to be a testing thread nor was testing/matchups stated in the reasoning.

Assault' has topped in 1 tournament. Trans' has topped in 3 tournaments. Where is the "recent events"? There was only 1. People at that tournament state it was good, but not unbeatable. Sufficient testing has not been done. At least we do know that Trans' is good and has topped multiple tournaments, but somehow that isn't banned despite being similar to Assault'. Way back when Burst Classic started as a format, Zeta' completely dominated a tournament, but Zeta' didn't get banned right away because that's ludicrous.

The solution to this problem is to actually do testing and prove whether something is, or is not, overpowered. It was dumb to ban Atomic-S and Destroy' without testing. It was the right thing to do when they actually did testing to conclude that Accel' and Zephyr' should be banned. It was the right thing to allowing the meta to form more instead of banning Zeta' right away.

The correct thing would be to have tested Assault'.
Jan. 31, 2020  7:52 PM
 
The only difference between Assault and Assault' is a stronger spring.

Assault is a larger Accel and because of this acts similar to Accel

Accel = Accel' in movement, therefore, Assault = Assault' in movement.

Assault dash acts like assault which is similar to Accel. Accel dash is banned because of its performance so it is safe to say that Assault dash would be banned for the same reason. It's ability to tornado stall plus the stronger spring would make it too powerful in the Classic Meta.
Jan. 31, 2020  9:07 PM
 
(Jan. 31, 2020  7:52 PM)MWF Wrote: The only difference between Assault and Assault' is a stronger spring.
Accel = Accel' in movement, therefore, Assault = Assault' in movement.

This is exactly the distinction between any ' driver and its standard variant, so I don't know why you're stating what should be obvious.

(Jan. 31, 2020  7:52 PM)MWF Wrote: Assault dash acts like assault which is similar to Accel. Accel dash is banned because of its performance so it is safe to say that Assault dash would be banned for the same reason. It's ability to tornado stall plus the stronger spring would make it too powerful in the Classic Meta.

You also wanna know what is exactly like Zephyr/Accel' and is still legal? Trans' is. Somehow that is fine as a near equivalent to Zephyr'/Accel' with an added mode change if you don't want to tornado stall for a certain match as an upside. How is this fine when Assault' is supposedly a problem? Just saying, that doesn't make sense, and Trans' should be banned far before Assault' should even be considered for one because, well, because of this:

(Jan. 31, 2020  7:52 PM)MWF Wrote: Assault is a larger Accel and because of this acts similar to Accel

Sure that's a similarity, but do you know what that extra width means for Assault comparatively? It means Assault' wastes a lot more power on its faster movement, and therefore has significantly worse Stamina than Zephyr'/Accel' do. Because of this Stamina types (among others) have a far easier time beating Assault' combos than Zephyr'/Accel' combos. It might not seem like much, but the differences between Accel' and Assault' could easily be meaningful, so...

tl;dr this thread is asking two serious questions:

1: Is Assault's weakened Stamina enough to make it fair and balanced, or was it just banned because of its similarities to Zephyr'/Accel' with no regard for its differences or any serious testing with it?

2: Why is Trans' allowed given that it does it so much better than Assault' does, shows up more often, and offers more flexibility?

I don't know the former directly, as I haven't tested Assault' on any meaningful Classic combos and have focused more on using it with Imperial, but the latter is just nonsensical. It just boggles my mind that Trans' got a free pass while Assault' somehow gets the ban since both on paper and in practice it's doing a ton better than Assault' is.
Jan. 31, 2020  9:34 PM
 
I'd like to state one thing(I may not be completely correct, but it should be in the right general direction): Trans' has two modes(as we all know), stamina and attack. The stamina mode functions similarly to Survive, however, with a dash spring, essentially giving you a bootleg Survive'. This means it has decent stamina as well as good burst resistance. I do not know about its tornado stalling abilities, but I would assume there is an issue here as well.
Jan. 31, 2020  9:37 PM
 
(Jan. 31, 2020  9:34 PM)Armor Wrote: I'd like to state one thing(I may not be completely correct, but it should be in the right general direction): Trans' has two modes(as we all know), stamina and attack. The stamina mode functions similarly to Survive, however, with a dash spring, essentially giving you a bootleg Survive'. This means it has decent stamina as well as good burst resistance. I do not know about its tornado stalling abilities, but I would assume there is an issue here as well.

I think both drivers should be banned too, it's crazy how good they are.
Jan. 31, 2020  9:55 PM
 
(Jan. 31, 2020  9:34 PM)Armor Wrote: I'd like to state one thing(I may not be completely correct, but it should be in the right general direction): Trans' has two modes(as we all know), stamina and attack. The stamina mode functions similarly to Survive, however, with a dash spring, essentially giving you a bootleg Survive'. This means it has decent stamina as well as good burst resistance. I do not know about its tornado stalling abilities, but I would assume there is an issue here as well.

Trans' Stamina mode is more like Edge than Survive. It's way too sharp and small to have anywhere near the same stability as Survive. that being said, it's still a decent option if stalling isn't a good plan for a certain matchup.
(Jan. 31, 2020  9:37 PM)#Fafnir Wrote: I think both drivers should be banned too, it's crazy how good they are.

Trans' has some power for sure, plus too much flexibility, but have you seen Assault' actually be this good?
Jan. 31, 2020  10:07 PM
 
(Jan. 31, 2020  9:55 PM)MagikHorse Wrote:
(Jan. 31, 2020  9:34 PM)Armor Wrote: I'd like to state one thing(I may not be completely correct, but it should be in the right general direction): Trans' has two modes(as we all know), stamina and attack. The stamina mode functions similarly to Survive, however, with a dash spring, essentially giving you a bootleg Survive'. This means it has decent stamina as well as good burst resistance. I do not know about its tornado stalling abilities, but I would assume there is an issue here as well.

Trans' Stamina mode is more like Edge than Survive. It's way too sharp and small to have anywhere near the same stability as Survive. that being said, it's still a decent option if stalling isn't a good plan for a certain matchup.
(Jan. 31, 2020  9:37 PM)#Fafnir Wrote: I think both drivers should be banned too, it's crazy how good they are.

Trans' has some power for sure, plus too much flexibility, but have you seen Assault' actually be this good?

I have seen burst classic videos with users using Assault', but not as many as battles with Trans'.
Feb. 02, 2020  12:54 PM
 
No ban is ever final. If anyone would like to post tests demonstrating why αssault' doesn't stack up with the likes of Accel', Zephyr', and Blow', we can certainly reconsider the ban.

The ban of αssault' was certainly expedited by our experience with A', Z', and B', the opinions of several players with extensive experience in WBO tournaments, including one where it was used as a dominant force. Does that mean it is unquestionably correct or that all of the match-ups it was used in were the best overall representation of the Driver? They might not be, so as always we are open to making a change if more evidence is presented!

None of the aforementioned Drivers were "unbeatable" either, but being "unbeatable" isn't what qualifies a part for being banned.

People wanted αssault' banned immediately upon released, but I pushed to wait for us to at least have some tournament results demonstrating how powerful it could be. Normally, I would want a bit more than we had, but given the similarities to existing banned Drivers, and the opinions of competitive players, it seemed appropriate to take the stance of banning it now and reversing later if it is proven to have not been necessary.

Especially for non-standard formats (like Burst Classic Format), the stance has always been to err on the side of banning things which threaten the intended balance of the format than to not ban it for the sake of maintaining a metagame which is as close to what was originally intended by Takara-Tomy (Burst Format).

Every ban the WBO implements should be considered individually. Circumstances vary in each case, so the method with which they are dealt with isn't always clear cut. There is nuance to it based upon a balance of tournament results, testing results, member opinions, opinions of players with tournament experience, opinions of the Organized Play staff, and elements regarding the fundamental nature of the given format it exists within that are considered.

As for Trans', I don't have a lot of experience with it so I cannot comment on its performance personally. But it's certainly something to keep an eye on and we welcome arguments and (in particular) test results in favour of banning it if anyone feels that it should be!
Feb. 03, 2020  2:32 AM
 
(Feb. 02, 2020  12:54 PM)Kei Wrote: No ban is ever final. If anyone would like to post tests demonstrating why αssault' doesn't stack up with the likes of Accel', Zephyr', and Blow', we can certainly reconsider the ban.

The ban of αssault' was certainly expedited by our experience with A', Z', and B', the opinions of several players with extensive experience in WBO tournaments, including one where it was used as a dominant force.  Does that mean it is unquestionably correct or that all of the match-ups it was used in were the best overall representation of the Driver? They might not be, so as always we are open to making a change if more evidence is presented!

None of the aforementioned Drivers were "unbeatable" either, but being "unbeatable" isn't what qualifies a part for being banned.

People wanted αssault' banned immediately upon released, but I pushed to wait for us to at least have some tournament results demonstrating how powerful it could be. Normally, I would want a bit more than we had, but given the similarities to existing banned Drivers, and the opinions of competitive players, it seemed appropriate to take the stance of banning it now and reversing later if it is proven to have not been necessary.

Especially for non-standard formats (like Burst Classic Format), the stance has always been to err on the side of banning things which threaten the intended balance of the format than to not ban it for the sake of maintaining a metagame which is as close to what was originally intended by Takara-Tomy (Burst Format).

Every ban the WBO implements should be considered individually. Circumstances vary in each case, so the method with which they are dealt with isn't always clear cut. There is nuance to it based upon a balance of tournament results, testing results, member opinions, opinions of players with tournament experience, opinions of the Organized Play staff, and elements regarding the fundamental nature of the given format it exists within that are considered.

As for Trans', I don't have a lot of experience with it so I cannot comment on its performance personally. But it's certainly something to keep an eye on and we welcome arguments and (in particular) test results in favour of banning it if anyone feels that it should be!

That's an extremely inconsistent balance philosophy though. Does the WBO ban because something is proven to be overpowered or does it ban things predicting they would be? It's obvious to ban things like Metal Fight remakes, but for things that are less obvious, testing should be done is my preference (plus I think it is best for consistency). You mention non-standard formats, like Classic, being on the stance of banning for safety, but at the metagame's birth there weren't bans for safety, like Zeta', which I praised.

A', Z', and B' makes sense which is why I'm not opposed to banning Assault' (just doing sufficient testing), but it becomes inconsistent when Trans' isn't also banned despite being more tournament results, higher top 3 representation, all while having similar performance (as in it does a similar job in tornado stalling).

Also, you say, "the opinions of several players with extensive experience in WBO tournaments", but the opinion of the people at the tournament, including many who are very seasoned in WBO tournaments, didn't explicitly say to ban it as proven by the screenshots of the discussion of it I posted in the main post of this thread.

True. Unbeatable does not mean "not ban-worthy". It's more like there wasn't much being explored into beating it.

There is only 1 tournament with Assault' topping. Upon reviewing footage from the tournament, which I did in my original post, of the people who fought O.H.α' in Finals wasn't using meta combos (WB.Y.Wd is what I'm talking about specifically), and other decks just lacked a proper stamina type to beat it (though I admit Odin beating Drigger Fang.G.O surprised me). Is 1 tournament the "some tournament results" you wanted?

Bans shouldn't be considered individually at all. There should be precedents and rules to what and why something is banned. What are players supposed to expect if bans are so inconsistent? And in this case, we have a lack of tournament results, a lack of testing results, and a lack of member opinion (from a lack of tournament/testing results to derive from); All we have is the opinion of Organized Play staff and possibly some opinion from tournament experienced players (though not much from a lack of tournaments with results).


Semi-related: I assume the "Committee" role on the WBO is the group that manages rulings for formats. What is the process for someone becoming part of Committee?
Feb. 03, 2020  2:56 AM
 
Two tournaments. Assault' featured heavily, with great success, at two tournaments. Tired of hearing "one".
Feb. 03, 2020  3:09 AM
 
(Feb. 03, 2020  2:56 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: Two tournaments. Assault' featured heavily, with great success, at two tournaments. Tired of hearing "one".

This. Honestly, it's pretty obvious to most competitive tournament attendees why this is banned, so I don't feel like I need to go very in-depth. I won last week's tournament using Odin Assault' to win 4 of my 5 first stage matches and won one deck match with just Odin Assault', ultimately going undefeated. RED NINJA 0829 won the NY tournament the week prior, after saying that if Odin Assault' wasn't banned he would spam it. He did (as did every other person who owned it) and then advocated for it to be banned. Trans' doesn't stall as well as Assault' does and therefore is more susceptible to attack and any other mobile combination.

If this isn't clear enough, I'd ask Shindog, RED NINJA 0829, Yami or LazerBeamz to step in and provide more color.
Feb. 03, 2020  8:08 PM
 
(Feb. 03, 2020  2:56 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: Two tournaments. Assault' featured heavily, with great success, at two tournaments. Tired of hearing "one".

There is only 1 tournament result in the Winning Combination thread listing Assault'. If you could find another, then you should post it.

Also, I realized that a few of the images in my main post don't work because I messed something up.
(Feb. 03, 2020  3:09 AM)The Supreme One Wrote:
(Feb. 03, 2020  2:56 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: Two tournaments. Assault' featured heavily, with great success, at two tournaments. Tired of hearing "one".

This. Honestly, it's pretty obvious to most competitive tournament attendees why this is banned, so I don't feel like I need to go very in-depth. I won last week's tournament using Odin Assault' to win 4 of my 5 first stage matches and won one deck match with just Odin Assault', ultimately going undefeated. RED NINJA 0829 won the NY tournament the week prior, after saying that if Odin Assault' wasn't banned he would spam it. He did (as did every other person who owned it) and then advocated for it to be banned. Trans' doesn't stall as well as Assault' does and therefore is more susceptible to attack and any other mobile combination.

If this isn't clear enough, I'd ask Shindog, RED NINJA 0829, Yami or LazerBeamz to step in and provide more color.

Trans' was successful at 3 tournaments and made up a larger portion of top cut than Assault'.

If you want to use your own tournament experience in the discussion, you should list the kinds of matchups you faced with it. I broke down the tournament where Red Ninja won and many people were not running any stamina combo to beat his Odin. This goes hand-in-hand with my problem of a lack of testing. Do we even know if O.H.assault' beats most Revolve and Orbit/Orbit Metal matchups?

Do you know for certain Trans' doesn't stall as well? Has there been testing done on that? Because I think Odin.Heavy.Trans' could be quite good.