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Archer Hercules Ban Discussion

Aug. 13, 2018  7:54 AM
 
Since its release, Archer Hercules has dominated the competitive scene – particularly on Eternal. While it has become a staple in the meta, due to its strong teeth and resistance to bursts and KOs on Eternal, a possible ban on the layer in WBO organized play is currently being discussed. As we evaluate the risks that this part poses to the meta, it’s vital that we get your tests and feedback to help make the decision easier.

Below is some of the aH testing that’s already been done, as well as a list of winning combos from tournaments since aH’s release.

Archer Hercules Tests

Lovesick’s Tests
Spoiler (Click to View)
~Mana~’s Test
Spoiler (Click to View)
Kei’s Tests
Spoiler (Click to View)
Wombat’s Tests
Spoiler (Click to View)

Winning Combos (Month of July)

Put Your Camera Down - 7/6/2018
Toronto, Ontario, Canada - Burst Format
Spoiler (Click to View)
HIGH PARK THROWDOWN 10 [BST] - 7/14/2018
Toronto, Ontario, Canada - Burst Format
Spoiler (Click to View)
Common Pickles Birthday Bey Party – 7/15
Spoiler (Click to View)
RVA Summer Series #2 – July 22nd
Spoiler (Click to View)
Achilles' Heel - 07/28/2018
Austin, Texas, USA - Burst Format
Spoiler (Click to View)
Revival of the Phoenix - 7/29/2018
Toronto, Ontario, Canada - Burst Format
Spoiler (Click to View)
Battle of the Legends – July 22nd
Spoiler (Click to View)
REVIVE PHOENIX DOWN - Burst Format
Los Angeles, CA 7/28/2018
Spoiler (Click to View)
Summary:
Percent of winning combos that featured aH: 24/87 (27.59%)
Percent of winning combos that featured hS: 26/87 (29.89%)
Percent of tournament placers that used aH: 18/24 (75%)
Percent of tournament placers that used hS since aH’s release: 17/24 (70/83%)

Interestingly, hS appears more frequently in the winning combos for July than aH with an almost equal number of placers using it as those who used aH.  Do you think aH deserves a ban? Why or why not?
Aug. 13, 2018  11:28 AM
 
No bro,now sr and mg are unbanned ,I strongly feel no more bans just now
Aug. 13, 2018  11:47 AM
 
(Aug. 13, 2018  11:28 AM)Battleburst Wrote: No bro,now sr and mg are unbanned ,I strongly feel no more bans just now

Maybe the unban on sR and mG was a bit late but just like them aH is dominating.
Aug. 13, 2018  12:53 PM
 
Honestly I think bans should stick to parts that aren’t commonly available like outer. No layer is unbeatable.
Aug. 13, 2018  1:16 PM
 
(Aug. 13, 2018  12:53 PM)AndyHG Wrote: Honestly I think bans should stick to parts that aren’t commonly available like outer. No layer is unbeatable.

that’s a principle-based approach right there!

well said, sir!
Aug. 13, 2018  1:21 PM
 
Hold off on a ban until Buster Xcalibur gets proper testing. If Buster Xcalibur fails, ban Archer Hercules.
Aug. 13, 2018  2:03 PM
 
There is another problem, if aH is banned, hS will dominate again, if bX does good against aH, the duo is saved, or else, the duo needs to be banned. But then rP will dominate
Aug. 13, 2018  2:25 PM
 
So i was thinking what if we don't ban any layers and ban Eternal instead.

My theory on this is as follows.

aH is only good because it's LAD carried by Eternal and has no right spin stamina layers to deal with, no one uses other drivers on it such as Revolve, Bearing, or Atomic because they know it's garbage and it will lose to hS Atomic (well aside from bearing, but that's driver LAD match ups so it's a no brainier).  If a player is forced to use Bearing on aH to get the same results that Eternal is giving then they risk getting destroyed by attack types which opens a window that has always been closed due to the absurd defense that Eternal gave it.

rP will have room to be a destabilizer against aH and a defense type for the attack types that are now beating aH.

hS would be dominant as its only counters are aH/rP Bearing and attack (if you're good enough with it) (this is assuming hS is on atomic).  If hS is on bearing then the counters are attack and hS on revolve atomic or basically almost any driver lol.  

So in conclusion Eternal gives aH too much power because it has good stamina, amazing LAD, and amazing burst resistance.  Since there isn't a good stamina layer in the form of cho-z aH just destabilizes things such as dC because of the crazy weight it has making aH get a free pass on having to deal with any right spin stamina beys and only having to worry about LAD match ups against hS.  Lastly rP isn't a 100% free win against aH because aH is dependent on the balance of the parts to give it the most stamina possible (yeah that's right, perfect balance has made a return).

(just to add on to no one using any other driver on aH either than Eternal. Literally every aH combo but 3 has Eternal on it in the winning combos list provided.)
Aug. 13, 2018  5:17 PM
 
(Aug. 13, 2018  2:25 PM)1234beyblade Wrote: So i was thinking what if we don't ban any layers and ban Eternal instead.

My theory on this is as follows.

aH is only good because it's LAD carried by Eternal and has no right spin stamina layers to deal with, no one uses other drivers on it such as Revolve, Bearing, or Atomic because they know it's garbage and it will lose to hS Atomic (well aside from bearing, but that's driver LAD match ups so it's a no brainier).  If a player is forced to use Bearing on aH to get the same results that Eternal is giving then they risk getting destroyed by attack types which opens a window that has always been closed due to the absurd defense that Eternal gave it.

rP will have room to be a destabilizer against aH and a defense type for the attack types that are now beating aH.

hS would be dominant as its only counters are aH/rP Bearing and attack (if you're good enough with it) (this is assuming hS is on atomic).  If hS is on bearing then the counters are attack and hS on revolve atomic or basically almost any driver lol.  

So in conclusion Eternal gives aH too much power because it has good stamina, amazing LAD, and amazing burst resistance.  Since there isn't a good stamina layer in the form of cho-z aH just destabilizes things such as dC because of the crazy weight it has making aH get a free pass on having to deal with any right spin stamina beys and only having to worry about LAD match ups against hS.  Lastly rP isn't a 100% free win against aH because aH is dependent on the balance of the parts to give it the most stamina possible (yeah that's right, perfect balance has made a return).

(just to add on to no one using any other driver on aH either than Eternal. Literally every aH combo but 3 has Eternal on it in the winning combos list provided.)

I feel let’s not ban anything ,please ,et or ah,please
(Aug. 13, 2018  12:53 PM)AndyHG Wrote: Honestly I think bans should stick to parts that aren’t commonly available like outer. No layer is unbeatable.

(Aug. 13, 2018  12:53 PM)AndyHG Wrote: Honestly I think bans should stick to parts that aren’t commonly available like outer. No layer is unbeatable.

I agree,also we have a new fafnir coming
Aug. 13, 2018  7:08 PM
 
(Aug. 13, 2018  2:25 PM)1234beyblade Wrote: So i was thinking what if we don't ban any layers and ban Eternal instead.

My theory on this is as follows.

aH is only good because it's LAD carried by Eternal and has no right spin stamina layers to deal with, no one uses other drivers on it such as Revolve, Bearing, or Atomic because they know it's garbage and it will lose to hS Atomic (well aside from bearing, but that's driver LAD match ups so it's a no brainier).  If a player is forced to use Bearing on aH to get the same results that Eternal is giving then they risk getting destroyed by attack types which opens a window that has always been closed due to the absurd defense that Eternal gave it.

rP will have room to be a destabilizer against aH and a defense type for the attack types that are now beating aH.

hS would be dominant as its only counters are aH/rP Bearing and attack (if you're good enough with it) (this is assuming hS is on atomic).  If hS is on bearing then the counters are attack and hS on revolve atomic or basically almost any driver lol.  

So in conclusion Eternal gives aH too much power because it has good stamina, amazing LAD, and amazing burst resistance.  Since there isn't a good stamina layer in the form of cho-z aH just destabilizes things such as dC because of the crazy weight it has making aH get a free pass on having to deal with any right spin stamina beys and only having to worry about LAD match ups against hS.  Lastly rP isn't a 100% free win against aH because aH is dependent on the balance of the parts to give it the most stamina possible (yeah that's right, perfect balance has made a return).

(just to add on to no one using any other driver on aH either than Eternal. Literally every aH combo but 3 has Eternal on it in the winning combos list provided.)
I agree with all the points made.  But I am concerned with the part “hS would be dominant as its only counters are aH/rP Bearing and attack (if you're good enough with it) (this is assuming hS is on atomic).  If hS is on bearing then the counters are attack and hS on revolve atomic or basically almost any driver lol”
I agree with everything said here.  Is this not kind of a problem too though?  So the counter for hS atomic becomes opposite spin stamina layers, itself, and attack (and only if you are good enough....this is absolutely true. I know because I am often not good enough)

Is this proposed banning going to make hS ~90% instead of the ~70% usage.
Aug. 14, 2018  10:08 AM
 
(Aug. 13, 2018  7:08 PM)Shindog Wrote: I agree with all the points made.  But I am concerned with the part “hS would be dominant as its only counters are aH/rP Bearing and attack (if you're good enough with it) (this is assuming hS is on atomic).  If hS is on bearing then the counters are attack and hS on revolve atomic or basically almost any driver lol”
I agree with everything said here.  Is this not kind of a problem too though?  So the counter for hS atomic becomes opposite spin stamina layers, itself, and attack (and only if you are good enough....this is absolutely true. I know because I am often not good enough)

Is this proposed banning going to make hS ~90% instead of the ~70% usage.

So if we do ban hS then Sr would start to dominate.  The problem with that is now attack doesn't stand a chance against Sr because the rubber just absorbs all the hits that would otherwise beat hS.  bL also counters hS to an extent, really don't think it's as big of an issue as aH is because... at least it has multiple counters.  Just my opinion though, completely understand that to some people it seems just as unbeatable as aH lol.  Majority rules on WBO so if multiple people agree on certain bans it could very well happen.
Aug. 14, 2018  6:44 PM
 
(Aug. 14, 2018  10:08 AM)1234beyblade Wrote:
(Aug. 13, 2018  7:08 PM)Shindog Wrote: I agree with all the points made.  But I am concerned with the part “hS would be dominant as its only counters are aH/rP Bearing and attack (if you're good enough with it) (this is assuming hS is on atomic).  If hS is on bearing then the counters are attack and hS on revolve atomic or basically almost any driver lol”
I agree with everything said here.  Is this not kind of a problem too though?  So the counter for hS atomic becomes opposite spin stamina layers, itself, and attack (and only if you are good enough....this is absolutely true. I know because I am often not good enough)

Is this proposed banning going to make hS ~90% instead of the ~70% usage.

So if we do ban hS then Sr would start to dominate.  The problem with that is now attack doesn't stand a chance against Sr because the rubber just absorbs all the hits that would otherwise beat hS.  bL also counters hS to an extent, really don't think it's as big of an issue as aH is because... at least it has multiple counters.  Just my opinion though, completely understand that to some people it seems just as unbeatable as aH lol.  Majority rules on WBO so if multiple people agree on certain bans it could very well happen.
I can see why aH(or Et) is being targeted for a ban.  I am not for the ban but I can understand why it is being considered.  I guess I just feel the most common counter for aH on Et, hS on Br, is a pretty decent combo and pretty fair too, as it loses to attack more than hS on At.  Combos that counter hS on At other than aH seem more narrow in application to me.  My take on it is that perhaps aH on Et is too good, but it kinda balances the format.  

So far, what I have seen on bX doesn’t make me think it’s the savior that everyone had hope for.  I hope I’m wrong.
Aug. 14, 2018  7:33 PM
 
(Aug. 14, 2018  10:08 AM)1234beyblade Wrote:
(Aug. 13, 2018  7:08 PM)Shindog Wrote: I agree with all the points made.  But I am concerned with the part “hS would be dominant as its only counters are aH/rP Bearing and attack (if you're good enough with it) (this is assuming hS is on atomic).  If hS is on bearing then the counters are attack and hS on revolve atomic or basically almost any driver lol”
I agree with everything said here.  Is this not kind of a problem too though?  So the counter for hS atomic becomes opposite spin stamina layers, itself, and attack (and only if you are good enough....this is absolutely true. I know because I am often not good enough)

Is this proposed banning going to make hS ~90% instead of the ~70% usage.

So if we do ban hS then Sr would start to dominate.  The problem with that is now attack doesn't stand a chance against Sr because the rubber just absorbs all the hits that would otherwise beat hS.  bL also counters hS to an extent, really don't think it's as big of an issue as aH is because... at least it has multiple counters.  Just my opinion though, completely understand that to some people it seems just as unbeatable as aH lol.  Majority rules on WBO so if multiple people agree on certain bans it could very well happen.

i don’t know about majority rules. 

if a thread like this even exists, i’d bet the decision to ban aH has already been made. 

kinda like the public comment period on pending federal regulations... say your piece but it’s an illusion...
Aug. 14, 2018  7:40 PM
 
(Aug. 14, 2018  7:33 PM)RedPanda2 Wrote:
(Aug. 14, 2018  10:08 AM)1234beyblade Wrote: So if we do ban hS then Sr would start to dominate.  The problem with that is now attack doesn't stand a chance against Sr because the rubber just absorbs all the hits that would otherwise beat hS.  bL also counters hS to an extent, really don't think it's as big of an issue as aH is because... at least it has multiple counters.  Just my opinion though, completely understand that to some people it seems just as unbeatable as aH lol.  Majority rules on WBO so if multiple people agree on certain bans it could very well happen.

i don’t know about majority rules. 

if a thread like this even exists, i’d bet the decision to ban aH has already been made. 

kinda like the public comment period on pending federal regulations... say your piece but it’s an illusion...

Yeah I have a feeling that aH is as good as gone. Though I feel it unnecessary with the new bX not even being tested & Sr & mG being unbanned. There is already counters for aH I don't think the ban is neccneces
Aug. 14, 2018  7:55 PM
 
I think Eternal is the reason for aH's Power. they should put up a trial ban after they finish testing.
Aug. 14, 2018  8:41 PM
 
Really don’t feel there’s an issue here. rP and hS are a lot more annoying.
Aug. 14, 2018  8:47 PM
 
The main thing I ask myself when thinking about this is: should a combination with such high stamina and defense exist in the game? The answer historically throughout MFB (Libra, Basalt which was almost banned) and Burst (Deathscyther, Dark Deathscyther, Maximum Garuda, Spriggan Requiem, etc) has been "no, it shouldn't".

Stamina types should never have high defense and defense types shouldn't have high stamina; that's kind of the basics of how Beyblade needs to be in order for it to work properly. It's possible for one such combination to have elements of the other type, but it shouldn't basically be the best-in-class at both. For example, Guardian Kerbeus and Deep Chaos were well designed because they were the best Stamina types in the game during their time, but they were weak to Attack. Crash Ragnaruk is also similar, but it's been overshadowed by Archer Hercules.

I can see the debate for whether it's aH or Eternal that's the problem, so I think that's something worth considering further right now. At our event in Toronto this weekend we might try an unofficial aH ban (ex. asking everyone to not use it, but officially they could), so we'll see how that goes.

But I also understand there's some people who are pointing fingers at rP and hS instead ... those two haven't been as much of a problem in Toronto. There's just so much variance in opinion globally it seems. Generally speaking, I've said it before, but I also think that TAKARA-TOMY needs to release a new Attack-focused stadium really badly ... but that's not something we can control.


(Aug. 14, 2018  7:33 PM)RedPanda2 Wrote: if a thread like this even exists, i’d bet the decision to ban aH has already been made. 

kinda like the public comment period on pending federal regulations... say your piece but it’s an illusion...

Not true! We posted this because the decision isn't made and we want opinions. There's a difference in opinion even among staff right now. But we all feel it's a complex issue which deserves discussion and feedback from as many people as possible.
Aug. 14, 2018  9:00 PM
 
I agree: Eternal is good because it can't be knocked off balance easily and Archer Hercules is good because it's hard to burst. The thing is, aH has medium recoil and a combo with Eternal scrapes if used with a frame. Since aH is succeeding so much with Eternal, why not make a combo ban for Archer Hercules with Eternal? This would keep the parts in play, but not as much as before.
Aug. 14, 2018  9:24 PM
 
(Aug. 14, 2018  8:47 PM)Kei Wrote:
(Aug. 14, 2018  7:33 PM)RedPanda2 Wrote: if a thread like this even exists, i’d bet the decision to ban aH has already been made. 

kinda like the public comment period on pending federal regulations... say your piece but it’s an illusion...

Not true! We posted this because the decision isn't made and we want opinions. There's a difference in opinion even among staff right now. But we all feel it's a complex issue which deserves discussion and feedback from as many people as possible.

OK. well i certainly take you at your word. thanks.
Aug. 16, 2018  2:51 PM
 
I really wish aH will not be banned
Aug. 16, 2018  2:53 PM
 
(Aug. 16, 2018  2:51 PM)RED NINJA 0829 Wrote: I really wish aH will not be banned

Why? If bX testings lprove that aH cannot be defeated as of now, there will be no reason to keep aH unbanned.
Aug. 16, 2018  4:30 PM
 
(Aug. 16, 2018  2:53 PM)Adarsh Abhinav Wrote:
(Aug. 16, 2018  2:51 PM)RED NINJA 0829 Wrote: I really wish aH will not be banned

Why? If bX testings lprove that aH cannot be defeated as of now, there will be no reason to keep aH unbanned.

I don't think BX can defeat AH ( In stock combo ) , EVEN   ,  EF  bursted  BX  !!
Aug. 16, 2018  9:07 PM
 
(Aug. 13, 2018  2:25 PM)The 1234beyblade Wrote: So i was thinking what if we don't ban any layers and ban Eternal instead.

My theory on this is as follows.

aH is only good because it's LAD carried by Eternal and has no right spin stamina layers to deal with, no one uses other drivers on it such as Revolve, Bearing, or Atomic because they know it's garbage and it will lose to hS Atomic (well aside from bearing, but that's driver LAD match ups so it's a no brainier).  If a player is forced to use Bearing on aH to get the same results that Eternal is giving then they risk getting destroyed by attack types which opens a window that has always been closed due to the absurd defense that Eternal gave it.

rP will have room to be a destabilizer against aH and a defense type for the attack types that are now beating aH.

hS would be dominant as its only counters are aH/rP Bearing and attack (if you're good enough with it) (this is assuming hS is on atomic).  If hS is on bearing then the counters are attack and hS on revolve atomic or basically almost any driver lol.  

So in conclusion Eternal gives aH too much power because it has good stamina, amazing LAD, and amazing burst resistance.  Since there isn't a good stamina layer in the form of cho-z aH just destabilizes things such as dC because of the crazy weight it has making aH get a free pass on having to deal with any right spin stamina beys and only having to worry about LAD match ups against hS.  Lastly rP isn't a 100% free win against aH because aH is dependent on the balance of the parts to give it the most stamina possible (yeah that's right, perfect balance has made a return).

(just to add on to no one using any other driver on aH either than Eternal. Literally every aH combo but 3 has Eternal on it in the winning combos list provided.)

I agree they should just ban eternal or maby Archer Hercules with eternal
Aug. 16, 2018  10:59 PM
 
I feel as if we should wait until some new beys are released, and attack combos with bx are made to counter ah on et
Aug. 17, 2018  2:05 AM
 
(Aug. 16, 2018  10:59 PM)Crimson Chin Wrote: I feel as if we should wait until some new beys are released, and attack combos with bx are made to counter ah on et

I agree, it’s too early in the cho-z power release cycle for a ban like this.
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