Why F230 CF/GCF breaks the game

Poll: What should be done about F230?

Ban it altogether
15.73%
14
Ban it to some extent
35.96%
32
Leave it alone
48.31%
43
Total: 100% 89 vote(s)
F230 doesn't have force smash capabilities though.
...

It's a 230 setup with an aggressive Bottom.

Trust me, I've tried all this stuff, way more times than I probably should have, LOL.
(Feb. 16, 2014  12:25 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: I just tried this, and I got weird results...

My really smooth F230 totally destroyed it, but it crushed my super jacked up one.

I don't currently have one that holds a middle ground (gotta clean out the crappy one; it was doing really well last night, but there's something jammed in there that's hindering the free rotation), so I can't say for sure whether or not it's effective.

However, there's one problem... This may beat Dragooon F230, but what about Genbull F230? Beating F230 in both rotations is a critical part of developing a counter. It'll also lose to just about every other competitive custom in the meta, haha, so it really isn't looking good.

Oh yeah not suggesting it as a reason to not ban f230 (g)cf, but rather as an option for people while we transition to f230 being banned (aka march, april, may tournaments)
(Feb. 16, 2014  4:37 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: ...

It's a 230 setup with an aggressive Bottom.

Trust me, I've tried all this stuff, way more times than I probably should have, LOL.

F230 will only fall like half a centimeter due to CF/GCF.
Have you actually tried it yet?

F230 will win. Launch for the Zero-G KO, and it'll win.
(Dec. 03, 2013  2:19 AM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote: Okay I may have found a good combo, it is MSF-H Genbull Dragooon CH120W2D.
Beat everything I threw at it.

Before judging this just look at the tests.

Lol, I have....

Genbull Dragooon F230GCF vs. Genbull Dragooon CH120W2D

Dragooon CH120 launched first on all lauches. Dragooon F230 launched to sway KO.
Dragooon F230: wins, 10/10 (All SKO)
Dragooon CH120: wins, 0/10
Genbull Dragooon F230GCF win rate: 100%

F230 has nooooo problem OSing either.

I shall refrain from the discussion on this counter hereafter, as I believe my stance has been presented pretty clearly.
Video Proof:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=txGyTCyTpl0

Score:

GD(CH120): 9(6OS, 3KO)
GD(F230): 2(All 0GKO)
Ties: 1
(Feb. 16, 2014  3:43 AM)Leone19 Wrote: So did some informal testing, do what you want with this-

Genbull Dragoon SR200 CS mainly tied Dragoon F230.

Genbull Dragoon SA165 (Normal Mode) GF won about 12/15 times against Dragoon F230, it had many OS's, actually. It won 3 times, but for the other 7, tied with Duo F230 GCF.

Again, just informal battles.

Got burried.
Been there, done that. Have a second person launch Dragooon SA165, and launch Dragooon F230 at like 60% power.

I've tried that counter numerous times, even in actual tournaments. Came close a few times, but it's never been able to squeeze out a win.

If it tied with Duo F230, then your F230 is probably getting a little worn. I'm assuming what happened against Dragooon F230, is that you launched too weakly, and GF made the OS because of that.

I just tried virtually that same match last night, and Dragooon F230 hit 80% (6 ZGKO, 2 OS - 2 ZGKO IIRC).

Just to, again, push my point on Dragooon CH120:


MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF vs. MSF-H Genbull Dragooon CH120W2D
CH120 always launched first.
Detail Results (Click to View)
F230: 17 (2 OS, 15 KO)
CH120: 3 (0 OS, 3 KO)
F230 Win %: 85.0%

Every ZGKO CH120 landed was mostly the product of a faulty launch (just got up and my arm was completely numb LOL).
(Feb. 16, 2014  2:52 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Been there, done that. Have a second person launch Dragooon SA165, and launch Dragooon F230 at like 60% power.

I've tried that counter numerous times, even in actual tournaments. Came close a few times, but it's never been able to squeeze out a win.

If it tied with Duo F230, then your F230 is probably getting a little worn. I'm assuming what happened against Dragooon F230, is that you launched too weakly, and GF made the OS because of that.

I just tried virtually that same match last night, and Dragooon F230 hit 80% (6 ZGKO, 2 OS - 2 ZGKO IIRC).

Just to, again, push my point on Dragooon CH120:


MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF vs. MSF-H Genbull Dragooon CH120W2D
CH120 always launched first.
Detail Results (Click to View)
F230: 17 (2 OS, 15 KO)
CH120: 3 (0 OS, 3 KO)
F230 Win %: 85.0%

Every ZGKO CH120 landed was mostly the product of a faulty launch (just got up and my arm was completely numb LOL).

As far as Duo went, Dragoon went "under" it, they spun like that for a while, and both stopped spinning.
@tbd have you had a chance to try against balro dragooon sa165 fb again?
For the people who haven't seen, I posted F230 tests on my Girago Dragooon 100 RF thread and it beats both spin directions of F230. Even though I only have Brown F230 mine works just like the Orange one I lost. This is BB-10.
(Feb. 16, 2014  5:34 PM)Aquamarine Wrote: For the people who haven't seen, I posted F230 tests on my Girago Dragooon 100 RF thread and it beats both spin directions of F230. Even though I only have Brown F230 mine works just like the Orange one I lost. This is BB-10.
Your tests are in a BB-10 stadium? Dragooon_F230G/CF isn't the biggest threat in standard format. It's mainly focused in Zero-G.
TBH I spammed Wyvang Dragooon F230 in 0G, it does break th game, luckily the NY meta isn't F230 heavy.
(Feb. 16, 2014  5:34 PM)Aquamarine Wrote: For the people who haven't seen, I posted F230 tests on my Girago Dragooon 100 RF thread and it beats both spin directions of F230. Even though I only have Brown F230 mine works just like the Orange one I lost. This is BB-10.

Not that surprising though. F230(G)CF is easy to KO with an attack type in BB-10

I'll suggest some ZG counters to try:

Genbull^2/ Revizer^2 BGrin
Duo Aquario SA165 (ZGA mode)W2D
Genbull^2/Revizer^2 SA165 (ZGA) W2D
Duo Cancer/Aquario/Hades BGrin
Number 1 and 3 don't work, I've faced them before when I had my Orange F230. Can someone try Scythe Uranus W145TB/MB?
(Feb. 16, 2014  5:48 PM)RDF3 Wrote:
(Feb. 16, 2014  5:34 PM)Aquamarine Wrote: For the people who haven't seen, I posted F230 tests on my Girago Dragooon 100 RF thread and it beats both spin directions of F230. Even though I only have Brown F230 mine works just like the Orange one I lost. This is BB-10.

Not that surprising though. F230(G)CF is easy to KO with an attack type in BB-10

I'll suggest some ZG counters to try:

Genbull^2/ Revizer^2 BGrin
Duo Aquario SA165 (ZGA mode)W2D
Genbull^2/Revizer^2 SA165 (ZGA) W2D
Duo Cancer/Aquario/Hades BGrin
BGrin has zero sway resist and will get 0GKOed or just scrape and get OSed.


@Aquamarine: Scythe is way to light.
Um DK, what are you trying to imply?
(Feb. 16, 2014  6:12 PM)Aquamarine Wrote: Um DK, what are you trying to imply?

I pretty much summed it up. Scythe is to light to be good at sway resist. Plus, spin steal would destroy it.
(Feb. 16, 2014  2:52 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Just to, again, push my point on Dragooon CH120:


MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF vs. MSF-H Genbull Dragooon CH120W2D
CH120 always launched first.
Detail Results (Click to View)
F230: 17 (2 OS, 15 KO)
CH120: 3 (0 OS, 3 KO)
F230 Win %: 85.0%

Every ZGKO CH120 landed was mostly the product of a faulty launch (just got up and my arm was completely numb LOL).

We've moved onto BWD. Your testing isn't needed.

(Feb. 16, 2014  5:43 AM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote: Video Proof:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=txGyTCyTpl0

Score:

GD(CH120): 9(6OS, 3KO)
GD(F230): 2(All 0GKO)
Ties: 1
TWT, that was kind of rude...
When I get home tonight, I'll test this
(Feb. 16, 2014  6:49 PM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote:
(Feb. 16, 2014  2:52 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Just to, again, push my point on Dragooon CH120:


MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF vs. MSF-H Genbull Dragooon CH120W2D
CH120 always launched first.
Detail Results (Click to View)
F230: 17 (2 OS, 15 KO)
CH120: 3 (0 OS, 3 KO)
F230 Win %: 85.0%

Every ZGKO CH120 landed was mostly the product of a faulty launch (just got up and my arm was completely numb LOL).

We've moved onto BWD. Your testing isn't needed.

(Feb. 16, 2014  5:43 AM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote: Video Proof:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=txGyTCyTpl0

Score:

GD(CH120): 9(6OS, 3KO)
GD(F230): 2(All 0GKO)
Ties: 1

It didn't help much that you abbreviated the names of both combinations. How was I supposed to know you switched? Since you abbreviated, I naturally assumed we were testing the same combination, as a switch in parts would've been addressed.

Anyway:

MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF vs. MSF-H Genbull Dragooon CH120BWD
CH120 always launched first.
Detail Results (Click to View)
F230: 17 (10 OS, 7 KO)
CH120: 3 (0 OS, 3 KO)
F230 Win %: 85.0%

I'm telling you guys, nothing on CH120 is gonna work.

BTW, for the record, this thing scraped like nobody's business.

Did you launch F230 at maximum power? Like, close to as hard as you could?
I apoligize for that, but it was in the video.

I'd have to say 85%. I went for the OGKO, I don't see how it could've scraped, in my tests it didn't scrape at all. I also got no OS's in the match with F230, maybe it was becuase I used no MSF.

Thanks for the tests. Smile