DrPepsidew, The bottom part isn't neccisarily true, just because launching style and whatnot might be different, but I understand what you mean.

People could have a huge debate over what is more important (regarding tournament and testing results) but they're both pretty close together in my opinion. Maybe if F230CF/GCF isn't banned by Anime North, Dark and other people from NC that might go can do some formal tests before or afterwards and see how each region differs and launch and stuff. It'd also help determine why each region gets such differences in their results.

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still posi

How would one counter a combo when the combo you're countering can counter the counter of that combo?
(I had fun typing that)
Seriously though, if you can change the launching sytle of F230 and beat the counter, the counter becomes nullified.

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Veteran, just getting back into the sway of things

I think he misworded that, haha.

I don't think he necessarily meant to say testing doesn't matter at all- I think he meant in tournaments, it's possible to get different results from testing, which has first-hand happened to me, before.

All of the "Oh wows" are pretty unnecessary...

^this. I did misword it.
@TBD Eh, you can't necessarily tell me where I can and can't post. There are different results in tournaments. And you yourself said that in NC, F230 is spammed. And the reason you guys want F230 banned, is because people have a good part that can be a winning piece, and that's 'unfair' in NC.

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I am your dog.
Thanks for the sig, Rock kyoya!

Come on people, there's a difference between "unfair" and broken. The part is making the game less fun.

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Veteran, just getting back into the sway of things

Come on people, there's a difference between "unfair" and broken. The part is making the game less fun.

Depends on how you look at it- saying it's making it less fun is a major opinionated answer (more so than other things here).

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

Beyblade is not just a game. It's a competitive hobby. Competitive means to be top-notch in sports or whatever you are competing in to win. F230 is a competitive part. People use it to win. Simple.

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I am your dog.
Thanks for the sig, Rock kyoya!

@Snoop Dog MS:
Gonna try and say this nicely. You've played me before and I did beat you. You know when I go to an event I like to have a few beyblades ready. Before F230 got huge I did try other things against it. So its rather unfair or whatever for you to judge our meta like that. People have tried counters upon counters. Every height has been tried. So before you start judging our meta ask one of us who plays here regularly.

Have a nice day.

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I wasn't judging your meta. TBD himself said that his meta is spammed with F230, Dragoon, and BD145RDF.

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I am your dog.
Thanks for the sig, Rock kyoya!

In Zero-G, testing with one person is going to produce different results, was this not already established?

If you have counters, post them, and all the related details such as launches and so on. Otherwise you may as well say "nah m8 it loses to m145" for all the information you're providing. This goes for everyone, but particularly the anti-ban side because so far bar at best one or two people there's been a complete lack of any actual specifics - if something counters it then we do need to know and we do need to see whether or not it was a fluke or whether Dragooon f230cf/gcf can overcome it through a different launch or whathaveyou.

I won't say any more as I'm actually trying to maintain relative neutrality, but the quality of arguments so far is extremely one sided, so the other side needs to step up their game if they actually want to be listened to - because right now it's difficult to even take them seriously.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I think he misworded that, haha.

I don't think he necessarily meant to say testing doesn't matter at all- I think he meant in tournaments, it's possible to get different results from testing, which has first-hand happened to me, before.

All of the "Oh wows" are pretty unnecessary...

^this. I did misword it.
@TBD Eh, you can't necessarily tell me where I can and can't post. There are different results in tournaments. And you yourself said that in NC, F230 is spammed. And the reason you guys want F230 banned, is because people have a good part that can be a winning piece, and that's 'unfair' in NC.

I didn't tell you you couldn't post. I just said that, if I was you, I would avoid posting about something I have no experience with, especially when people who do have the experience blatantly contradict everything I'm saying.

It wins too much. It is simple. It "simply" wrecks everything (Just to clarify, that's bad).

Leone19: I'm really not trying to take a shot at you or anything, but I can almost guarantee the reason you think using F230 is fun, is because you effortlessly swept 2 tournaments with it on the same day, without having to deal with it yourself. It's all fun and games until you have to take it down yourself, and it's certainly not fun for the players incapable of beating it. You have to think about the players on the receiving end.

It doesn't matter how people launch in different regions. If they do it correctly, they are capable of incalculable damage to their meta, as has already been demonstrated.

Again, guys, when we're discussing banning something, social points are completely irrelevant. If something is capable of being "broken," it should be banned. It doesn't matter where is has or has not become utterly dominant, whether or not people use the launches right, or whether or not it's spammed/readily available. If X part has the ability to rip a meta to shreds, it should be banned.

prevention is better than cure

Not that this is necessarily the case with F230, as it has already pretty much wiped out the East Coast, but people in areas where it hasn't quit taken over the ZRG meta should keep this in mind.

I just realized something here. One of the biggest arguments against F230's ban, is that it hasn't taken Toronto. As stated before, Toronto uses all three types of stadiums. That said, the fact that it hasn't dominated is most likely because the Attack stadium isn't the playing field for everything they do (as it is in most other areas). Therefore, unless I'm mistaken (and I would really like a write in from a Toronto member concerning how often each type is used, since I obviously am not an eye witness and could be completely wrong), the results are irrelevant in arguing against its brokenness in the Attack stadium (since basically the whole case is built around Dragooon SA165BWD, which is practically immoveable for an F230 custom in the Defense type stadium, as I have witnessed first hand) if we don't know exactly which matches were played in which stadiums, whether or not F230 was involved, and, if so, what combinations won against/lost to it.

So yah, some specifics on Stadium frequency and statistics on which combinations are used successfully/unsuccessfully against F230 ( if it is present) in each stadium would be really great (since, at this point, what results we have from Toronto could be invalid).

Don't wanna make Toronto out to be an inaccurate source or anything, as this is probably totally my fault for not making the connection when Kei mentioned they use different stadiums than we do, but given the circumstances I'm crossing my fingers haha. XD

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

Where does the committee (Not everyone else) stand on the issue of F230 right now? I think we have enough arguments from both sides to justify at least an official response from the committee. With BeyDays coming up in the next couple months along with new waves from Hasbro IE Bandit Genbu, I think its time for something official to be done.

Like any good combination in the past, we can all agree that ___ Dragooon F230 CF/GCF is an issue. What we are discussing here though is whether it should be banned.

I can not speak on behalf of everybody here, and I am but 1 voice among other staffs, but for transparency sake, I will post my opinion here. I am against the ban of ___ Dragooon F230 CF/GCF.

Now, before you guys wonder 'what the hell', I'd like to add that I have read every post concerning this issue, be it tests or reasonings. TheBlackDragon's OP is one of many that have confirmed this combination's excellence, and its somewhat 'dominance' in some metas. YET, it is also not an apparent issue, as Kei, amongst others, have posted. At the very least, 1 known prominent counter exists, plus few others that have fallen off the popularity scale, and perhaps, some more to be discovered. Those counter tests are as valid as the ones supporting the ban. Let's not nitpick others' credibility on this matter. Each of you have earned that trust.

Aside from results and discussions, I would also like to add my own personal opinion. Zero-G's releases had seemed to come to an end. Garuda, Fenrir, etc's releases are far from being confirmed. Personally, I prefer to close an era where all parts are legal for Official play. Much like how it was with the Standard format. It was also part of my own personal reasons for approving Limited in the first place. That should be the format where we should focus our bans and what not. Yes, the Limited format utilizes Standard format stadiums for now, but surely, it will eventually evolve into Zero G stadiums as well.

Anyway, I've had my say in this matter and presumably, we all know where Kei stands.

Sorry, but what are these counters - particularly the main one you mention? You're not referring to Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD are you, because assuming both tests are totally valid (I still want to hear from Kei on the Dragooon mold thing) then we still end up with at least one Dragooon F230(G)CF that can handle Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD - meaning that is not a counter. Not being rude/argumentative here, just want to know if I missed something at some point as I would not expect someone as knowledgeable you to overlook what the two tests actually imply.


Aside from that, if the problem is limited to the Zero-G Attack Stadium, how well-balanced gameplay wise are the others? It would suck for people to have to buy a new stadium and I'm not a big fan of further reducing the number of legal stadia (especially by removing what is apparently the most attack-friendly one), but perhaps that could provide a better way of addressing the issue, or at least one that leaves us without banned parts at the end of a generation (whereas we have banned stadia in most formats anyway, though personally I'm not super fussed about having banned parts at the end of a generation if it's one of our primary competitive formats in the beypoint system and doing so corrects a significant imbalance).

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Sorry, but what is that counter? You're not referring to Dragooon SA165BWD are you, because that's still up in the air as to whether it actually works or not - conflicting tests with videos of it not working under standard testing conditions blah blah blah blah (also waiting to hear from Kei on his Dragooon molds too). Not being rude/argumentative here, just want to know if I missed something at some point.

Look, conflicting tests are conflicting tests. There's nothing more to it. You can not just assume that at any given time, there can only be 1 set of valid tests, while the other ones are trash. Kei's results are as valid as the others. If you choose to invalidate Kei's results due to the lack of videos, than it is up to you. Regardless of what anybody or I say, you will be locked in that mindset, and it is fully within your rights, because your results are what you get. Like I basically said, let's not stoop so low to start nitpicking each other's credibility for the sake that one side is correct and the other is wrong. Learn to agree to disagree.

If by 'working under standard testing conditions', you are implying the surface area it's played on, I am actually very much lenient on the matter. Be it a tarp on a grass, concrete, carton, wooden tables, hotel carpet room, compact dirt or a smooth desk. As long as the surface area is level, then that is that. In a perfect world, everybody will be under 1 strict condition. I believe it was discussed in the past, and it seemed that a sheet of carton was the preferred choice. By the same reasoning, a plexiglass could very well be deemed 'invalid'. But we are not going walk that path. Yes, results might differ, because we do not live in a perfect world, and people will always play the game under a slightly different condition than the rest. An unstated 'common sense' generally is accepted.

Dragooon molds are quite interesting, and perhaps a whole different topic altogether. It is within the same realms as F230 molds. We have all come into agreement that only the TAKARA TOMY Orange F230 is what poses the problem. While it's a good knowledge to know which Dragooon mold is superior, what possible benefit does it have for the general ban of F230? If anything, it is further complicating things by utilizing a specific combination, a special launch, a specific F230 color, a specific F230 brand, a specific stadium and now a specific mold for the chrome wheel, etc. Where do you draw the line?

Libra was Libra.
Basalt was Basalt.
F230 is Orange, Takara Tomy, paired with Dragooon, a mold specific Dragooon, a Zero G Attack Stadium, a smooth surface area, a weak launch, paired with GF or GCF.

No. It is not the same.

Yo, step back and consider what I'm saying for a moment, because I am NOT saying Kei's tests are invalid/that Kei did anything wrong.

I have asked for information on the off chance he overlooked something, but my point is that if we take both tests as valid (everything done correctly, all parts in the best possible condition), then at least in some cases a Dragooon F230(G)CF will reliably beat a Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD. Some won't, no, but some will, which means it is not a counter unless something is wrong with the latter combo in TheBlackDragon's tests - and from what has been said it does not sound like that is the case and this is also excluded by what you said about both tests being valid.
That by definition means that Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD cannot be a counter - it will not work against some Dragooon F230(G)CFs, so it does not counter them, so it is not a counter. Does this make sense?
What you are saying, however, completely dismisses TheBlackDragon's results - saying SA165BWD IS a counter by definition cannot be true if his results are "valid" - if it is to be a counter, then his results would have to be due to SA165BWD being launched incorrectly, parts of that combination not performing as well as they are able, or something else that gives Dragooon F230(G)CF a sizeable advantage - thus making his results invalid.

At most, we assume something involved in those tests is causing these results either way, and the best way to resolve that is to see if others results match either case. In this case, we would primarily be looking into what could cause Dragooon F230(G)CF to have won that matchup, because that is what we are seeing - if Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD can beat it no matter what it does or not (i.e. whether it is a counter or not). However, that inherently means there was something overlooked either way - too small that we could expect someone to notice, but it does mean we accept the possibility that either set of results could be flawed. As you have said both are valid, however, this is not applicable without a skewed definition of 'valid', and even then still means we simply do not know if that customization is a counter, not that it is or is not.
This is the most neutral ground, and perhaps what you think I should take (I have other reasons I've already explained for suspecting things are the way they are), but that was not what I was talking about when I was questioning your use of the word "counter" as it applies to Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD (well, I was actually seeing if you were referring to something else) - either way unless you attribute TBD's results to something not being optimal (launch/condition/part-to-part-variation wise) then you still cannot call Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD a counter, it is objectively incorrect. This is what I was trying to point out.
You cannot get a difference without a cause on some level (though maybe there's something down at the quantum level that conflicts with that, I forget/it gives me headaches), and whether Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD is a counter or not depends on whether it can overcome that/those things with enough consistency to be reliable against Dragooon F230(G)CF in a tournament situation.


The rest seems to me to be beside the point of what I was talking about, but I guess there's no harm in responding:

I'm only implying the surface to the extent that we have a rule about it - a standard part of the term "valid" when used with regard to testing, but no, it was not specifically aimed at anything aside from "the tests are both to be considered completely correct depictions of what happens in this match up".
We do have a rule about the surface these stadiums are used on if I remember correctly, and should plexiglass not fit that, I would simply ask TheBlackDragon to repeat the tests on a sheet of cardboard (that's the most common choice, right?), in case that is the cause - for appropriate caution because I want to see the right decision be made.
You said both tests are to be assumed as valid so in that case this shouldn't matter, however personally as it was enough for you to mention it... TheBlackDragon, if you are able, could you possibly repeat the tests on cardboard, again with two people for maximum accuracy and preferably using the exact combinations Kei did (not sure if you did that in your original tests, and if you get different results it may be worth changing back to the previous combination in case that is the issue), with whatever BWD condition is hardest to handle.

I draw the line for a counter as something which will beat a combination in a tournament situation (implying it is fair etc) no matter what it does - basically we're looking at a significant winrate that the combination it is a counter to can do nothing to overcome. For a counter to be actually worth consideration it should not require anything too exceptional to work (i.e. something much, much, much heavier than normal - beyond anything I can recall us having had to deal with), as in that case it could not be expected to correct game balance.
There are also perhaps discussions to be had about what we consider just a matter of exceptional skill, but that does not seem to be relevant to this particular case, so this is not the time to do so.

The final part of your post which you have edited in seems to assume my position on this to be strongly pro-ban and that causes me a lot of concern. I don't own the relevant stadia, it would be stupid of me to take a strong stance in either direction - the evidence so far indicates to me that it is a problem for game balance, that something should be done, but in what manner and how practical that will be, if it will even be worthwhile, is not something I have any opinion on. I have asked for answers from one side more than the other simply because they have not provided information I think is very important, but that's about it.
But most of all, even that is completely beside the point: I was simply asking for a clarification or potentially pointing out a logical flaw in what you've said - nothing more and I apologise if it sounded like anything else but there is only so much I can do. I do not know what about that called for a response of that length (or tone - perhaps I'm misreading things but that sounded more than a little bit stern and hypercritical to me) but yo, not at all my intention, chill out man.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Yo, step back and consider what I'm saying for a moment, because I am NOT saying Kei's tests are invalid/that Kei did anything wrong

Perhaps unknown to you, but a member who has invested a lot in this matter, and will remain anonymous made claim via PM that Kei's results were 'less valid' due to lack of videos. Hence, Kai-V made a rather diplomatic and tactful post about it.

I would really like the avenue of different test results to be further developped before a decision is made. Even if there are currently more players who obtain overpowered results for F230, Kei's tests are inherently valid and should not be ignored. People should try to reproduce them as much as possible.

I have asked for information on the off chance he overlooked something, but my point is that if we take both tests as of equal veracity, then at least in some cases a Dragooon F230(G)CF will reliably beat a Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD. Some won't, no, but some will, which means it is not a counter unless something is wrong with the latter combo in TheBlackDragon's tests - and from what has been said it does not sound like that is the case and this is also excluded by what you said about both tests being valid.
That by definition means that Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD cannot be a counter - it will not work against some Dragooon F230(G)CFs, so it does not counter them, so it is not a counter. Does this make sense?
What you are saying, however, completely dismisses TheBlackDragon's results - saying SA165BWD IS a counter by definition cannot be true if his results are "valid".

I do not wish to progress into meticulous implications and definitions, but no, I did not dismiss TheBlackDragon's results. They simply lie on the opposite side of the spectrum. TheBlackDragon's result is a counter for Kei's, as much as Kei's for TheBlackDragon's.

We do have a rule about the surface these stadiums are used on if I remember correctly, and should plexiglass not fit that, I would simply ask TheBlackDragon to repeat the tests on a sheet of cardboard (that's the most common choice, right?), in case that is the cause - for appropriate caution because I want to see the right decision be made.
You said both tests are to be assumed as valid so in that case this shouldn't matter, however personally as it was enough for you to mention it... TheBlackDragon, if you are able, could you possibly repeat the tests on cardboard, again with two people for maximum accuracy and preferably using the exact combinations Kei did (not sure if you did that in your original tests, and if you get different results it may be worth changing back to the previous combination in case that is the issue), with whatever BWD condition is hardest to handle.

There's no need for this, because like you, I also trust TheBlackDragon's tests. His tests yield the results that work for him, and I respect that.

I draw the line at the point a specific combination will beat every worthwhile opponent thrown at it in a stadium legal for tournament play - ideally it should be demonstrated by multiple users, but so far we do not have the benefit of such data - thus I echo previous requests that others take a shot at it. In the mean time, my current opinion is based on the idea that if Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD was generally a viable counter to even all but one person's Dragooon F230GCF, it would have broken the dominance somewhere, but again that is also something I've asked for more information on.

You seem to forget that Kei is somewhat speaking on behalf of Toronto, which was agreed by TheBlackDragon that it's not an issue there, be it due to the stadium used or other x factors.

Anyway, it is more than just Killerken Dragooon SA165 BWD. That particular combo, so far, works for Kei, but it does not work for TheBlackDragon. Other members here have come up with their own version of counters that work for them. It's not isolated into 1 specific combination.

Anyway, if such a thing exists then we should act so it is not abused, as to make sure the beypoints system is actually a fair depiction of people's skill and not just who has the longest-spinning copy of a particular part or combination or whatever.

The Beypoint system is currently a fairly accurate depiction of skills. Of course there are some cases beyond our control, but we do try to limit those. A 5 year old who has never launched a bey still has to actually know how to play to win with a ____Dragooon (kick-butt mold) F230 (orange TT)) CF/GCF in a decent meta.

I basically agree with everything th!nk has stated.

I don't really see much of an argument played out in your post (save the issue of testing, which was hard to follow, and which th!nk has already covered) besides this:

Libra was Libra.
Basalt was Basalt.
F230 is Orange, Takara Tomy, paired with Dragooon, a mold specific Dragooon, a Zero G Attack Stadium, a smooth surface area, a weak launch, paired with GF or GCF.

I'm sorry to say it (and please forgive me if I'm sounding rude), but I would consider those points to be blatantly wrong.

Basalt was just Basalt, yes. However, MF-F Basalt Gemios 230MS is/was not viable. You're making it sound like F230 is extremely difficult to handle, whereas Basalt/Libra were completely invincible in and of themselves, without any discernment or effort on the part of the user, which is not true in the least. You can't just take the part, pair it with whatever you want, make a totally absurd launch and expect it to win. Each and every custom needs to be used correctly for it to work.

Dragooon molds are mostly irrelevant. We were simply discussing mold differences as explanations for our differing results.

I'd also like to mention that, regardless of how frequently occurring a situation, if said part/custom is utterly broken in that situation, it should not be allowed to be used (I'd also like to mention that the Attack stadium is generally agreed upon as the most balanced stadium, the one most valid for test results, and the preferred stadium for most people to play in, so it really is The best representation of Zero-G itself).

Might be able to redo the testing, although I really see no point considering how incredibly carefully I conducted the rounds I recorded, and how many times I've reproduced those results informally.

EDIT: Woah mama, just saw your new post...

I absolutely did not say that Kei's results were less valid than mine. I said each was credible. What I did say, is that, if you want to draw a fine line, it's usually hard to argue with a video (I may have been out-of-line saying that, but I did clarify later that I do not believe my testing to be any more/less credible than his).

I talked with her multiple times after that, explaining how credible I believe Kei's testing to be (heck, he's Kei), and I absolutely do not consider mine any more valid than his.

For those of you who didn't figure it out, I am the "nameless" user mentioned in Uwik's post.

Actually, if launches are used correctly, yes, that really is what it comes down to. Dragooon SA165BWD. Other counters have been explored, tested, and tossed because a change of launch technique neutralized them.

Dragooon F230CF/GCF is a Balance type. It does everything. That said, in a stadium as launch-dependent as the ZRG stadium, you need to launch correctly. If you need it to work as a Zero-G attacker, launch it like one. If you need to use it as a Zero-G defender, launch it like one. If you need to use it as a force-smasher, launch it like one. It really is very simple...

I'd also like to note that Libra/Basalt could never win against everything in just one combination. You had to switch it up. Dragooon F230CF/GCF is just one combo, which makes the problem even worse.

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

I basically agree with everything th!nk has stated.

I don't really see much of an argument played out in your post (save the issue of testing, which was hard to follow, and which th!nk has already covered) besides this:

Libra was Libra.
Basalt was Basalt.
F230 is Orange, Takara Tomy, paired with Dragooon, a mold specific Dragooon, a Zero G Attack Stadium, a smooth surface area, a weak launch, paired with GF or GCF.

I'm sorry to say it (and please forgive me if I'm sounding rude), but I would consider those points to be blatantly wrong.

Basalt was just Basalt, yes. However, MF-F Basalt Gemios 230MS is/was not viable. You're making it sound like F230 is extremely difficult to handle, whereas Basalt/Libra were completely invincible in and of themselves, without any discernment or effort on the part of the user, which is not true in the least. You can't just take the part, pair it with whatever you want, make a totally absurd launch and expect it to win. Each and every custom needs to be used correctly for it to work.

During its dominance, Basalt worked well with the majority of top tier tracks, and the majority of top tier bottoms, across almost all regions, in perhaps every single legal stadiums, and placed in the winning combination far more often, while F230 does not. It only works well under a very specific combination, and even then, if someone comes forth with a result contradicting the dominance, the "Oh you didn't launch it correctly, what stadium did you use? etc" comes into play. While the launch problem and stadium difference could be true, it does not deviate from the fact that F230 is very niche.

Now, before you start using MF-F Basalt Gemios 230 MS again into the discussion, do realize that childish examples can go both ways.

...

Niche?

Seriously?

It isn't niche. You just need to realize that launch technique matters.

Dragooon F230CF/GCF is a Balance type. It does everything. That said, in a stadium as launch-dependent as the ZRG stadium, you need to launch correctly. If you need it to work as a Zero-G attacker, launch it like one. If you need to use it as a Zero-G defender, launch it like one. If you need to use it as a force-smasher, launch it like one. It really is very simple...

The fact that it's just one combination doesn't matter. It is picky about its parts, and you do need to know how to launch it correctly (which is the case for most any ZRG combination). However, regardless, calling it niche is ridiculous. It beats way too many things, way too consistently. If combo X renders the meta useless, I don't care how you built it, I don't care how you launched it, and I don't care what stadium you used; I care about keeping you from wrecking anything else with it.

I'm assuming you didn't read my edit to the above post, so I'll state it again:

I'd also like to note that Libra/Basalt could never win against everything in just one combination. You had to switch it up. Dragooon F230CF/GCF is just one combo, which makes the problem even worse.

Even if Basalt was viable with a wide range of Tracks/Bottoms, I seriously doubt any one of those could handle what Dragooon F230CF/GCF can handle on its own.

The reason Basalt dominated everywhere in the world, is because it was cheap and readily available. F230 costs you 50 bucks on average. It isn't cheap, and most people aren't lucky enough to get one. That said, those who own F230s have an enormous edge, and if they sit down for 30 seconds (literally; that's how long it takes, considering they're all just basic launches and any decent player should be able to do them easily anyway) and learn the appropriate launches, they can wreck an entire tournament effortlessly.

You've gotta remember, I've seen this happen half a dozen times. It's a real problem that needs to be dealt with.

EDIT: Basalt only had to compete in one stadium: The BB-10, so drawing that parallel is inconsequential.

Now, before you start using MF-F Basalt Gemios 230 MS again into the discussion, do realize that childish examples can go both ways.

That point was perfectly relevant. It may be extreme, but I'm trying to illustrate that what you said applies to all competitive parts, not just F230. It was not a "childish example," it was a perfectly logical one. You can't take X part, pair it with whatever you want, and go sweep a tournament with it. It doesn't work like that.

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

Perhaps unknown to you, but a member who has invested a lot in this matter, and will remain anonymous made claim via PM that Kei's results were 'less valid' due to lack of videos. Hence, Kai-V made a rather diplomatic and tactful post about it.

Absolutely not something I knew about nor something I'd agree with, no. It's true that I rarely if ever give anyone enough benefit of the doubt to not ask if I think there is anything that could produce a discrepancy that I could reasonably believe they may not be aware of, but then I don't know anyone who doesn't make mistakes once in a while, and personally I feel a discussion as important as this one is one of the last places it would be beneficial to me to not check to make sure of these things - I'm quite sure Kei knows that I don't mean any offense or disrespect by doing so and I certainly hope that is not implied when I do.

Honestly, it's uh, well not exactly comforting you'd think I'd approve of/agree with something like that.

I do not wish to progress into meticulous implications and definitions, but no, I did not dismiss TheBlackDragon's results. They simply lie on the opposite side of the spectrum. TheBlackDragon's result is a counter for Kei's, as much as Kei's for TheBlackDragon's.

Yes, and so in that case Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD does not meet the definition of a counter, which is basically both what and all I was trying to say in my initial response.

There's no need for this, because like you, I also trust TheBlackDragon's tests. His tests yield the results that work for him, and I respect that.

Hm? I don't distrust him at all, but plexiglass is lower friction than cardboard so I could see it perhaps playing a part in his results, and on the off chance that something like that plays a major part in this particular use of F230 being problematic, well, that would be a most excellent thing, no? Now, I don't think that would be the cause (at least, the entire cause), as I would not expect all NC and the other area suffering the same problem's tournaments to be held on plexiglass, but I'm nowhere near comfortable enough in that assumption nor do I think the information gained either way would be so small that I do not think it is not worth looking into if possible, especially as it was notable enough for you to mention it/assume I was referring to it or something (I stilllll don't get where all this is coming from). If I didn't include the standard "if you have time" or whatever as I usually do, it was only because I forgot, too, I'm not really demanding these tests be presented on pain of ban, but you know - more data is a good thing, right?

You seem to forget that Kei is somewhat speaking on behalf of Toronto, which was agreed by TheBlackDragon that it's not an issue there, be it due to the stadium used or other x factors.

Anyway, it is more than just Killerken Dragooon SA165 BWD. That particular combo, so far, works for Kei, but it does not work for TheBlackDragon. Other members here have come up with their own version of counters that work for them. It's not isolated into 1 specific combination.

Uh, I'm not sure how you'd get that from what I'm saying but no I'm well aware that what Kei has said is based off what he's seen in Toronto that's a pretty obvious thing and again, it really seems like you would need to have a pretty low opinion of me if it seems like that to you.

I haven't mentioned it because I figured there would be a better time to do so, but that basic concept is why I think it would be a good idea to hold off on making a decision either way until Anime North - especially if some of the TO and NC players are able to put aside some time to have a skilled TO player try something like killerken dragooon SA165BWD against one a skilled NC player using Dragooon F230CF/GCF, at least if that matchup doesn't happen in the tournament, which from what I gather is something the NC players at least are very willing to do (and from what I know of TO, I definitely expect that to be mutual).

It works for them, yes, but will it work against a person it does not work for - that is what I'm curious about. As I said, to get a different result there must be a difference to cause it, and it would be in stark contrast to the values we've long held as a community to not try to figure out what that difference is - or at least whether or not we CAN figure out what it is.

As it stands and as I'm sure you know, there are other communities involved too, and NC seems like a pretty capable one despite what certain people who will remain unnamed have implied or said outright to me or publicly or whatever - on looking back at it and the combinations that have risen from/been used by people within that area, I don't think what's going on there can be dismissed (not saying you are, of course, this is more a general point while I'm here as someone did say something to that effect yesterday, which is pretty outrageous IMO).
They seem to have a problem with F230(G)CF and they have spent a lot of time trying to do something about that without success, and I think something like Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD would be able to do that if there was not some condition normal enough to be consistently the case in a very active tournament scene that was holding it back or some oversight on the part of that scene which I would personally not expect to happen given these particular circumstances - which is why I've asked the questions I have asked.

Basically, as I see it we need to work out how well Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD generally works against this combo, in particular whether there is something Dragooon F230CF/GCF users can do (i.e. launching techniques) that it cannot do anything about (i.e. if IT can be launched differently or whatever, and then of course whether this is a "guess the launch" thing), to see if there is some cause large enough that people could learn or that we could reasonable address. And this is generally speaking what I have tried to do when I've posted.

Again, not saying we can say Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD isn't a counter yet (or at least not meaning to say that), just that I really do not think we can actually call it one based on what has been presented so far. As for other counters, I've seen no real discussion/argument about them or TBD's response to those that are known - again it's something I posted about, I'm pretty sure earlier today, to get more information on for the good of the discussion (in particular "what are these counters" and "seriously, stop calling things counters without saying exactly what they are and providing suitable basis to call them that").

To form my own opinion on things as they stand I've shaded the probabilities based on what I expect, but again, that's for my personal opinion which doesn't really matter and I'm trying to avoid bringing it into things as I do not think it should be at all relevant to the decision (thus not worth mentioning here without good reason) - if asked I will state it, and I will certainly explain the factors I see as important (which have lead me to that opinion) if I think they need to be addressed/are being overlooked, but I would rather be able to sit back and not have super-serious discussions about my opinion on something this time around given I don't actually have a Zero-G Stadium.

If it helps negate any preconceptions, as it currently stands I do not think there is enough information to make a decision either way given what has been discussed so far, though I am admittedly not exactly ecstatic that that's the case (hence facetious remarks along the lines of "lol we should just ban the thing so we can move on" while chatting to friends informally.)

The Beypoint system is currently a fairly accurate depiction of skills. Of course there are some cases beyond our control, but we do try to limit those. A 5 year old who has never launched a bey still has to actually know how to play to win with a ____Dragooon (kick-butt mold) F230 (orange TT)) CF/GCF in a decent meta.

Yes, it is, and I never said (or never meant to say) anything that contradicts that, especially with that "fairly" qualifier you have there. As it stands, I see this current discussion as determining whether or not this is beyond our control, but that so far we're in a pretty early stage where we're trying to finalize just how big an effect (if any) F230 or specific uses thereof have on that, and if so, then we consideration of whether or not it is practical/worthwhile etc to address that. To me the amount of skill required to do well in a decent meta (which I'd consider most of the places discussed to be) seems to still be low enough that it is a problem for game balance - again largely theoretical and something that I would not say in any "official" manner with the amount and nature of evidence we have so far.

For what it's worth, I also don't think that something has to be good at everything to be worthy of a ban (if you are really curious as to my reasoning on this, ask me some other time in private because that's not really relevant to this discussion at this point in time), and I think in this case that the fact F230 is quite different is why we have discussed to some extent the unprecedented step of banning a specific use of a part rather than banning it entirely - basically I personally think that for something to be banworthy, it doesn't have to be a part if a use of it has a similarly dominant effect (heck, a part like that which doesn't counter itself like Basalt and Libra did to an extent actually strikes me as even worse). Discussion about whether or not that is a reasonable step to take still needs to happen, but again IMO at this point, we don't really have enough data to base a decision about that on.


Anyway, I was simply asking what counter you were referring to, as assuming a reasonable definition of "valid" and "counter", your original post was logically flawed if it was referring to Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD, and I didn't really expect that to be the case when I wrote my reply (it became more obvious on further re-reading your post and I edited my reply appropriately, but I was definitely surprised that you were referring to that combo). Really did not want to get into a discussion of *my* opinion on whether or not F230 deserves a ban in some capacity or whatever, so I'm still kinda baffled about your response, haha. Would appreciate hearing back to you on a couple of points (mostly those about why we're even having this huge discussion over something so tiny and unrelated, for personal reasons) but seeing as someone who believes what you seem to think I do is here and discussing that with you I think I can finally stop talking about whether or not I think a part should be banned in stadiums I don't even own, yeah? Am kinda hoping that I'll get to sit back and look over the entirety of a major discussion I'm really interested in from the outside for the first time in, well, quite a while, so would rather not be seen as tied to either side (right now, it's just that there's a whole lot more I need to know from one side than the other so it sounds like I'm skeptical of the anti-ban argument, or more accurately only skeptical of the anti-ban argument, because I intend to be thoroughly critical of both given the opportunity.)

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Now, before you start using MF-F Basalt Gemios 230 MS again into the discussion, do realize that childish examples can go both ways.

That point was perfectly relevant. It may be extreme, but I'm trying to illustrate that what you said applies to all competitive parts, not just F230. It was not a "childish example," it was a perfectly logical one. You can't take X part, pair it with whatever you want, and go sweep a tournament with it. It doesn't work like that.

First of all, please do not put words into my mouth, I have never said that it applies to 'ALL' competitive parts. Re-read my post below:

During its dominance, Basalt worked well with the majority of top tier tracks, and the majority of top tier bottoms, across almost all regions, in perhaps every single legal stadiums, and placed in the winning combination far more often, while F230 does not. It only works well under a very specific combination, and even then, if someone comes forth with a result contradicting the dominance, the "Oh you didn't launch it correctly, what stadium did you use? etc" comes into play. While the launch problem and stadium difference could be true, it does not deviate from the fact that F230 is very niche.

Under the context of an F230 ban, as stated in the title of this thread, written by you, Basalt was much more versatile than F230 can ever be. F230's spotlight is only paired with a specific combination, with a specific launch in a specific stadium. That is solely what I meant with 'niche'

... You can't take X part, pair it with whatever you want, and go sweep a tournament with it. It doesn't work like that.

Thank you for the break-through knowledge. I suppose Killer Nemesis F230 MQ is not competitive then?

Uwik: I can't agree more. The only trouble combination I saw is MSF-H _____Dragooon F230CF/GCF (even then you need to launch properly to dominate using it.) Anyway, is that MQ an typo? Because IIRC MQ doesn't exist.

Now, before you start using MF-F Basalt Gemios 230 MS again into the discussion, do realize that childish examples can go both ways.

That point was perfectly relevant. It may be extreme, but I'm trying to illustrate that what you said applies to all competitive parts, not just F230. It was not a "childish example," it was a perfectly logical one. You can't take X part, pair it with whatever you want, and go sweep a tournament with it. It doesn't work like that.

First of all, please do not put words into my mouth, I have never said that it applies to 'ALL' competitive parts. Re-read my post below:

Um, I can't make sense of what you've said. Maybe I missed something?

Regardless, yes, what you said does apply to all competitive parts:

Libra was Libra.
Basalt was Basalt.
F230 is Orange, Takara Tomy, paired with Dragooon, a mold specific Dragooon, a Zero G Attack Stadium, a smooth surface area, a weak launch, paired with GF or GCF.

You're implying that F230 combinations are so completely specific, and so difficult to use, and applicable in so few situations, that it isn't a problem. And, apparently, Basalt/Libra work on everything, against everything, everywhere, with any launch (which is, obviously, not true).

I was trying to point out that, regardless of how versatile a part is, to use it for a specific purpose you need to be in the right environment, using the right parts, and launching correctly. F230 is obviously no exception, but the fact that it doesn't work with any combo you throw together with any launch you use, doesn't justify calling it "niche." Niche means that the customization only works effectively against a small range of competitive customs. That is the farthest thing from a good description of a Dragooon F230 combo.

As for these customs being picky with their parts, I'd say that's not actually true. If you take a look at the ZRG cc list, you'll see that there are actually a total of 30 competitive variants of Dragooon F230CF/GCF combinations on the list, matching the 30 variants that make up the entire Stamina section of the tier list.

There are more competitive Dragooon F230 CF/GCF combos on the tier list than there are conventional Stamina combinations.

That said, while you must use CF/GCF and Dragooon for it to work, if I'm not mistaken (and I very well might be, as I wasn't there in the time period when Basalt was competitive, so correct me if that's the case), the gamebreaking combinations Basalt was used with required the use of CS, BD145/230, and an MF-H. That said, no Basalt definitely didn't have a broader customization spectrum than these F230 customs do. The different variants may have been more different between each other than F230 customs are, but as for total dependency on picking exactly the right parts, I'd say that the F230 combinations have a wider range as far as customization goes (unless there are 28 other variants linked to MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145/230 CS that I don't know about).

Essentially, it's not nearly as "niche" as you're making it out to be. Just because it takes common sense to launch, doesn't mean it isn't a problem. There are people who will (and have) sit/sat down, focused for 30 seconds, and learned how to launch it, and it's become a really big problem.

During its dominance, Basalt worked well with the majority of top tier tracks, and the majority of top tier bottoms, across almost all regions, in perhaps every single legal stadiums, and placed in the winning combination far more often, while F230 does not. It only works well under a very specific combination, and even then, if someone comes forth with a result contradicting the dominance, the "Oh you didn't launch it correctly, what stadium did you use? etc" comes into play. While the launch problem and stadium difference could be true, it does not deviate from the fact that F230 is very niche.

Under the context of an F230 ban, as stated in the title of this thread, written by you, Basalt was much more versatile than F230 can ever be. F230's spotlight is only paired with a specific combination, with a specific launch in a specific stadium. That is solely what I meant with 'niche'

I think I pretty much responded to this already.

... You can't take X part, pair it with whatever you want, and go sweep a tournament with it. It doesn't work like that.

Thank you for the break-through knowledge. I suppose Killer Nemesis F230 MQ is not competitive then?

Assuming you meant F230Q: Nope. Exactly my point.

BTW, I find it funny that you told me not to use the Basalt Gemios 230MS analogy, and then turned around and used something of the like yourself, which only validates what I was trying to say. Neither part can work well without the right part selection/environment.

I would, again, like to point something out that you never responded to:

I'd also like to note that Libra/Basalt could never win against everything in just one combination. You had to switch it up. Dragooon F230CF/GCF is just one combo, which makes the problem even worse.

Basalt and Libra were never capable of doing what F230 can do in a single combination. You needed to use them in multiple combinations to ruin the entire game. Dragooon F230CF/GCF is extremely versatile (far and away the most versatile combo I've ever seen), and you only need one custom. You don't even have to disassemble your Beyblade throughout the entire course of a tournament.

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

Confused to where you got the numbers from the (not final) Tier List...

I may have missed something, but I'm a bit confused.

This is the last thing I saw from Dark in the Advanced Forum:

Smash Attack

MSF/MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165 R2F/RF/LRF/XF
MSF/MSF-H Balro Balro W145/160 R2F/RF/LRF/XF
MSF/MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang W145/160 R2F/RF/LRF/XF


Zero-G Attack

MSF/MSF-H Balro Balro SA165/E230 CF/GCF/GF
MSF/MSF-H Wyvang/Girago Dragooon SA165 CF/GCF/GF
MSF/MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang SA165/E230/SP230 CF/GCF/GF


Defense

MSF-H Killerken Revizer E230 CS/RB/RSF
MSF-H Revizer Revizer/Killerken/Genbull E230 CS/RB/RSF


Zero-G Defense

MSF-H Killerken Revizer E230 BSF/MB/RSF/TB
MSF-H Revizer Revizer/Killerken/Genbull E230 BSF/MB/RSF/TB


Stamina

Duo Cancer/Cygnus/Hades BGrin
Duo Cancer/Cygnus/Hades W145 BWD/EWD/WD
Duo Cancer/Cygnus/Hades SA165 BWD/EWD/WD/TB
DuoCancer/Cygnus/Hades SR200 CS/TB
Genbull Genbull TH170/SA165/SR200 CS/TB


Spin Stealers

MSF-H Killerken/Genbull/Revizer Dragooon BGrin
MSF-H Killerken/Genbull/Revizer Dragooon SA165 BWD/EWD


Balance

MF-H Duo Cancer/Cygnus/Hades F230 CF/GCF
MSF/MSF-H Genbull Genbull F230 CF/GCF
MSF/MSF-H/MSF-M Genbull/Girago/Killerken/Revizer/Wyvang Dragooon F230 CF/GCF
MSF/MSF-H Genbull Genbull E230 MB
MSF/MSF-H Girago Girago E230 MB

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

See the Dragooon F230 section?

It has 3 Metal Stone Faces listed, 5 bottom Chrome Wheels, and two Bottoms.

That's 3 x 5 x 2, which equals 30 possible competitive Dragooon F230 combinations.

I was actually referring to the current tier list, but that particular section is identical.

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

See the Dragooon F230 section?

It has 3 Metal Stone Faces listed, 5 bottom Chrome Wheels, and two Bottoms.

That's 3 x 5 x 2, which equals 30 possible competitive Dragooon F230 combinations.

I was actually referring to the current tier list, but that particular section is identical.

Ah, when I first read that, I initially thought you meant as in 30 (completely different) combinations for a minute, just misunderstood your wording, .

I reread it and realized they were just different versions of, essentially, the same thing.

My bad.

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call