World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Other Closed Threads

The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play

Feb. 25, 2014  1:17 AM
 
(Feb. 24, 2014  11:24 PM)Leone19 Wrote: I reread it and realized they were just different versions of, essentially, the same thing.

TheBlackDragon Wrote:That said, while you must use CF/GCF and Dragooon for it to work, if I'm not mistaken (and I very well might be, as I wasn't there in the time period when Basalt was competitive, so correct me if that's the case), the gamebreaking combinations Basalt was used with required the use of CS, BD145/230, and an MF-H. That said, no Basalt definitely didn't have a broader customization spectrum than these F230 customs do. The different variants may have been more different between each other than F230 customs are, but as for total dependency on picking exactly the right parts, I'd say that the F230 combinations have a wider range as far as customization goes (unless there are 28 other variants linked to MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145/230 CS that I don't know about).

My point being, dependency on correct construction/usage is common to all competitive customs, and, even so, you can configure it in 30 different ways, and it will still work. It isn't nearly as "niche" (don't know if that's an appropriate word, but I'll use it for the sake of clarity) as our friend Uwik is suggesting.
Feb. 25, 2014  1:21 AM
 
Bottom Chrome Wheels are not the biggest customization ever though, and I think MSF and MSF-H are generally interchangeable.
Feb. 25, 2014  2:00 AM
 
(Feb. 25, 2014  1:21 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Bottom Chrome Wheels are not the biggest customization ever though, and I think MSF and MSF-H are generally interchangeable.

Actually, the Bottom Chrome Wheel on a Dragooon custom is one of the biggest changes you can make.

MSF-H is heavier (and from what I've heard, it actually apparently works better for late-game Stamina, although I'm not totally sure that's accurate as I don't own one myself). Regardless, that's one more piece you can use with it. Interchangeableness (is that a word?) is the point, because you can configure things in dozens of different ways and the custom will still work.

I'd also like to point out that, although it isn't currently listed as top-tier (it really should be if you ask me, actually), Gargole works very well on Dragooon F230, which further carries the number of Dragooon F230 customs to 36. I also failed to mention the use of MSF-L or MSF-F/Normal Face, which work very well and are just as gamebreaking as the rest of the variants, which further increases the number to a whopping 60 different variants.

I'm comparing the number of different parts you can use with it as compared to gamebreaking Basalt customizations. Regardless of how much the performance changes by, you can still get the same results with dozens of different part arrangements, so it really isn't that limited.

If there was a custom that obviously broke the game, even if it was limited to literally one exact combination, wouldn't we ban it anyway? I mean, who cares how many different ways you can build it. The important point is, you can build it. It exists, it works, and it's a problem that needs to be fixed. I honestly don't see how the fact that the combination is supposedly "niche" changes anything at all. It still breaks the game, regardless of how specific it is.

It actually doesn't make much sense if you think about it.
Feb. 25, 2014  5:47 AM
 
Guys, you realise what you're arguing about is pretty much irrelevant to this whole thing right? Here, let me help in my usual control-freak way:

SOME FACTS:

1. There are numerous (FACE) _____ Dragooon F230CF/GCF setups which are problematic.
2. However many there are, they are all relatively similar.
3. We're arguing about this when we haven't even come to anything resembling a consensus on whether or not the thing has consistent counters - pretty much one combination has actually seen testing past the opening post, and we've got two different sets of results. I read something about another one or two - I think Time mentioned something but was quickly told it didn't belong here (???) and discussion about others was pretty short.
4. Various people have made vague references to counters without providing anywhere near enough detail for it to actually be meaningful to the discussion. The one or two people mentioning more specific counters have been told this is not the thread for it or had the combinations dismissed without real further testing to see if they worked against anything else or even for anyone else.
5. Instead of sorting this out we're arguing minutiae of what constitutes a separate combination and heck, even discussion of what we each consider banworthy is not particularly important if we haven't sorted out how powerful the combination(s) we are looking at is/are.

Please, focus.
Feb. 25, 2014  5:54 AM
 
That is exactly what I was trying to tell TheBlackDragon. What I do is I post when I think something is wrong and needs to be corrected. I already posted what I suggested should be explored, so while this is being done or not done, I correct things that are being posted. Since he was trying to use that as another point for his arguement to ban F230, it had to be corrected.
Feb. 25, 2014  6:55 AM
 
I understand that, and why your responsibilities etc would not let you simply end that line of discussion as I aimed to do - if anyone here has a good record for trying to keep discussions like these organized and focussed on evidence it's yourself, after all. That said - I think we can both agree that arguments of this magnitude are prone to getting sidetracked anyway, I mean you've made posts in this thread asking people to focus on evidence and testing and despite this, opinion/philosophical/theoretical arguments/posts have continued unabated. And more recently things have also been taking a slightly more personal edge which is bringing back some very unpleasant memories of the basalt debate, and I do not think that is healthy for the community as a whole.
Anyway, the fact we have apparently not even got anything nearing a consensus on how strong this thing is in terms of potential counters and how well they work against the broader metagame and for different people despite it being considered a potential problem for so long says worrying things to me about how this discussion is going to progress, hence my attempt at intervention there, which I'm not sure will be sufficient.

I've sent you a PM with my own idea of what to do about that, which is something I should be able to oversee if needed, seeing as I know you guys are all pretty busy.

In the meantime, it would be nice if people could focus on posting evidence, clearly defined counters with how they're used, and most importantly doing relevant tests - that is what matters at this point, really.
Feb. 26, 2014  3:11 AM
 
My ultimate point was: Dragooon F230 combinations are not "niche," and have essentially just as wide a range of customization as your average (previously) gamebreaking Basalt combination.

I didn't mean to get sidetracked, haha. Sorry about that. I do think all the points I made were perfectly valid, though.

I still don't get the relevancy of how broad the customization range of the combination is, but whatever.

I think you already know my opinion on its general level of effectiveness. I've provided test results, videos, and experiences concerning tournaments from myself and several other experienced players. So yah. I say, any "counter" that has been thought up so far, is either horribly inconsistent, or competitively useless against the entire rest of the meta (another preferable attribute to have would be to be able to counter both spin-directions of F230 customs, but that isn't very realistic considering how difficult it is to stop it in one spin-direction alone).

Banned > Legal.

I'd also like to please ask bladers to make sure the correct launch techniques are used during testing, as that's probably the largest factor causing inconsistencies in test results (testing should be accompanied by a video as well, if possible).

Oh, on a side note, I tried testing against Dragooon SA165BWD on cardboard, and it's significantly more difficult to SKO (like, really legit hard). Do people really play on cardboard? We play on plastic tabletops here in NC, and plexiglass simulates that pretty well, but cardboard... sheesh. But yah, MSF-H Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD definitely beats MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF when you do the testing on cardboard.

I tried it immediately after the cardboard on plexiglass again, and I had no trouble taking it out. I had no idea the surface was that much different. Do the Toronto players actually compete on cardboard? Because honestly, after what I saw tonight, that would explain everything.
Feb. 26, 2014  4:27 AM
 
(Feb. 26, 2014  3:11 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Oh, on a side note, I tried testing against Dragooon SA165BWD on cardboard, and it's significantly more difficult to SKO (like, really legit hard). Do people really play on cardboard? We play on plastic tabletops here in NC, and plexiglass simulates that pretty well, but cardboard... sheesh. But yah, MSF-H Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD definitely beats MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF when you do the testing on cardboard.

I tried it immediately after the cardboard on plexiglass again, and I had no trouble taking it out. I had no idea the surface was that much different. Do the Toronto players actually compete on cardboard? Because honestly, after what I saw tonight, that would explain everything.

Not saying I called it but I pretty much called it. Cardboard is a standard surface, so I imagine something along those lines is what's going on (I figured the plexi would have an effect due to lower friction - that big an effect is a surprise but there you go). You guys should get some cardboard for your next tournament and see how that affects the winning combinations.
If Dragooon F230(G)CF's dominance is broken by cardboard (looks like it provides a counter at least, whether or not it is still too strong remains to be seen I guess), well the solution seems quite simple to me - it's not like cardboard is hard to get, after all. If that happens I will also pontificate about careful examination of variables in conflicting tests Tongue_out
Feb. 26, 2014  4:41 AM
 
@theblackdragon this explains why my Genbull Dragooon SA165 MB combo works in MD. We play primarily on cardboard for zero-g.

edit: @th!nk I would be all for standardizing cardboard as the playing surface for zero-g if it weren't for the fact that it would drastically reduce the effectiveness of all sway attackers, not just F230.
Feb. 26, 2014  4:52 AM
 
Zero-G Attackers, not "Sway Attackers." Wink
Feb. 26, 2014  4:54 AM
 
Well Time, it seems like TO and other places manage without plexi so that might just be a necessary evil. I mean slightly less effective zero-g attackers vs one combo dominating almost everything - it seems like a decent tradeoff still, no?

(Feb. 26, 2014  4:52 AM)*Ginga* Wrote: Zero-G Attackers, not "Sway Attackers." Wink
Thankyou for the largely unnecessary correction which added precisely nothing to the conversation, I'm sure we'll all keep it in mind.
Feb. 26, 2014  5:05 AM
 
That correction is something I have been doing lately, since we do want people to use the proper terms and nobody at all was correcting others. Someone has to do it.

Anyway, cardboard is definitely recommended in the Rulebooks already, as well as laminated wood floors.
Feb. 26, 2014  5:36 AM
 
Cardboard affects things waaaaayy more than hardwood or a plastic tabletop. Plexiglass is smooth, but not that insanely smooth.

We play tournaments on plastic tabletops, and I've tested on hardwood before and gotten pretty much identical results. I just never thought to use cardboard...

If cardboard is a "mandatory" surface to play on, and it changes things this much, testing surface absolutely must be specified in testing, because the difference is so huge it's just... wow.

Maybe I just have a bad piece of cardboard, but it's about equivalent to playing on soft carpet.

I still believe, even if MSF-H Dragooon SA165BWD can take it down on cardboard with decent consistency, it should still be banned for what it does to everything else (and, frankly, Dragooon SA165BWD is probably the worst/easiest to counter spin-equalizers in all of ZRG, and can't beat much). Anyway, even if we get more results like this (I'll try to have official testing up by tommorow), it still stands that Dragooon F230 is perfectly capable of winning on most any smooth surface. We should also experiment with banking against it, to see if destabilization works, since that's still a very effective technique on plexiglass.

In a nutshell, even if it does lose relatively consistently to a below-average spin stealer on a select playing surface (which we don't know for sure yet; need more testing/results with banking, but it is looking very possible), the fact that it wrecks everything else in the format still far more than justifies a ban IMO.
Feb. 26, 2014  6:26 AM
 
Yo, people should always include every piece of detail that could possibly affect testing in the tiniest of ways anyway, especially in Zero G. Long been an advocate of this, it doesn't take much effort and it makes tests a whole lot more useful.

As bad as soft carpet? I can't imagine cardboard having anywhere near that much friction, are you quite sure?

And of course this by no means puts an end to the discussion so quickly, just that we have something large to look into/gather data on, to see if this and any other counters the same thing makes effective are enough to break the dominance - I would suspect there might be something other than Dragooon SA165BWD that would do this now, no?
Plus given how dominant Dragooon F230CF/GCF has been in NC I think having something that beats Dragooon F230 reliably would be useful even if its coverage is a bit limited, I mean it's not like that combo sucks against everything, so it would still help if people are spamming f230.
Would suggest you guys try playing on cardboard this week, see what happens (if no major change, would wait for another tournament after that) and then we go from there.

Right now, it looks like something has significantly shifted things up, so we should take time to see exactly what effects this causes. Perhaps a good thing to do would be to look at things that have been called counters that were being beaten by KO and see if they are now actually doing that for you guys, like, ASAP, so people know before the tournament this weekend what does/doesn't work, basically to try to accelerate the effect - I mean you want F230 to stop being such an issue so to me this seems like something very much in your interest, no?

Kai-V: I know, but posting a correction like that without actually saying anything of value to the conversation in a discussion like this comes across as unnecessarily pedantic if done by someone who isn't staff - basically the same lines as mini-modding, at least in my opinion, and at that point in the discussion it would have been very, very simple to say something of actual value - for example what surfaces they play on in his area, or something.
Feb. 26, 2014  2:31 PM
 
Well, the combinations F230 beats by ZGKO are limited to Dragooon SAS165/B : D spin stealers, so really the only thing to test would be Bearing Drive, given it's second only to SA165BWD as far as sway resistance goes.

BWD's method of resisting sway is different from that of other Bottoms. To ZGKO something, you need to sway it out of the center of the stadium, and the edge of the Bottom must catch the slope of the stadium, which, in turn, causes the combination to circle aggressively, until it reaches the edge and falls through an opening. While most Zero-G Defense Bottoms focus on actually resisting the sway itself, BWD actually resists being thrown from the center, so that its edge doesn't touch the slope, which prevents it from actually being swayed around.

The way to fix this, is to throw the Attack combination to the very edge of the stadium (pretty much into the wall), which rocks the stadium to one side, usually knocking BWD from the very center. Once you get its edge to catch the slope, it is extremely easy to KO, but if you can't you're probably gonna lose.

That said, since we don't have the same case with B : D or SA165EWD/E2D/WD I'd expect F230 to win still (since, on plexiglass, it ruthlessly murders every one of them), but if it didn't, well... geez, that would be so cool.

Kei: If you're reading this, did you happen to be testing on cardboard? Or so you guys play on cardboard in events up in TO? Assuming not but hey, doesn't hurt to ask, yeah?

Yah, the cardboard was literally that much worse. I've no idea why, but rocking the stadium was just short of impossbile. I'm going to do some ZRG Attack comparisons from different surfaces later today and post the results (I'll be doing plexiglass, hardwood, plastic, cardboard, and carpet).

Yah, 'twould be cool to be able to counter it, but honestly what's going to happen is the F230 user will just change spin-direction and beat it with Genbull or something once he's caught on (again, under the circumstances I'd still far and away rather go for an F230 on F230 match). *Annoyed*

Dragooon SA165BWD isn't awful, definitely not (pretty much won my first tournament singlehandedly with it; everyone was just Revizer Dragooon B : D and Twin Ball Stamina customs but still), but there are definitely other things that would've been better, ya know?
Mar. 01, 2014  7:28 AM
 
If the original Version of F230 is that powerful and smooth but the newer ones aren't, there's a possibility that the producers think:
'OMG we've made a terrible mistake, lets make a watered-down ones to balance the metagame'
or they simply wanted to boost the sales of the genbull booster, whatever that is.

As long as I watched the post, the newer ones are not even as good as the orange one, how bout banning the orange(better ones) but left the sqeaky ones go? Although it is a bit akward, but is F230 is the cause of players losing, before MFB becomes a dead hobby these game-breaking stuff should be banned.
Mar. 01, 2014  7:39 AM
 
(Mar. 01, 2014  7:28 AM)天翔翼 TenshouYoku Wrote: If the original Version of F230 is that powerful and smooth but the newer ones aren't, there's a possibility that the producers think:
'OMG we've made a terrible mistake, lets make a watered-down ones to balance the metagame'
or they simply wanted to boost the sales of the genbull booster, whatever that is.

As long as I watched the post, the newer ones are not even as good as the orange one, how bout banning the orange(better ones) but left the sqeaky ones go? Although it is a bit akward, but is F230 is the cause of players losing, before MFB becomes a dead hobby these game-breaking stuff should be banned.

The problem is that hasbro released another orange F230 that isn't as good, so it would be much harder for hosts of tournaments to distinguish the hasbro mold from the TT mold. Just recognizing them at the tournament would make things way too confusing, unreliable and difficult.
Mar. 01, 2014  7:41 AM
 
(Mar. 01, 2014  7:39 AM)TheLibraKing Wrote:
(Mar. 01, 2014  7:28 AM)天翔翼 TenshouYoku Wrote: If the original Version of F230 is that powerful and smooth but the newer ones aren't, there's a possibility that the producers think:
'OMG we've made a terrible mistake, lets make a watered-down ones to balance the metagame'
or they simply wanted to boost the sales of the genbull booster, whatever that is.

As long as I watched the post, the newer ones are not even as good as the orange one, how bout banning the orange(better ones) but left the sqeaky ones go? Although it is a bit akward, but is F230 is the cause of players losing, before MFB becomes a dead hobby these game-breaking stuff should be banned.

The problem is that hasbro released another orange F230 that isn't as good, so it would be much harder for hosts of tournaments to distinguish the hasbro mold from the TT mold. Just recognizing them at the tournament would make things way too confusing, unreliable and difficult.

Oh really? I probably missed that.......

Then probably the only way is check the track by judges before battle, or just kick them to the good ol' banning table. I just think that making gamebreaking stuff shouldn't exist because it leads to consequences like now.......
Apr. 03, 2014  12:48 AM
 
This is really getting out of hand.

MD and other communities have seemed to do Zero-G inconsistently now, instead of most tournaments. I feel this is partly due to F230. In MD we are seriously done with F230. Time has retired from the WBO for a little while in part because he "is tired of F230 and boring metagames." If a high ranking and active member does that in response to an overpowered part, something is seriously wrong.
Apr. 03, 2014  1:05 AM
 
(Apr. 03, 2014  12:48 AM)*Ginga* Wrote: This is really getting out of hand.

MD and other communities have seemed to do Zero-G inconsistently now, instead of most tournaments. I feel this is partly due to F230. In MD we are seriously done with F230. Time has retired from the WBO for a little while in part because he "is tired of F230 and boring metagames." If a high ranking and active member does that in response to an overpowered part, something is seriously wrong.

Except that nobody in the top two of the last Maryland Zero-G tournament even used F230 in their most notable combinations, and in the last few months, all we know for certain is that Stars used F230 sometimes ...
http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Winning-...pid1175760

Beyblade is so not about one part in one format of tournaments, so using that as the excuse for leaving is incorrect if you want my opinion.
Apr. 03, 2014  1:09 AM
 
Geetster99, Arupaeo, myself, beymaster15963, Tech, Stars, and others use F230 consistently in Zero-G.
Apr. 03, 2014  1:12 AM
 
And get in the top three ?
Apr. 03, 2014  1:31 AM
 
Not necessarily, but either win or lose to another F230 combo.
Apr. 03, 2014  1:35 AM
 
The statistics I posted in my other post still stand. It might get used, but obviously Time, among others, seems to be able to win against it and not use it so much himself.
Apr. 03, 2014  1:45 AM
 
The part is obviously creating quite a bit of tension between tournament regulars though. It's been around for long enough now that a popular vote might be a good idea.
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