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Should we ban Basalt? The Committee has been debating this issue for a few weeks now, and we figured that it might be a good idea to get an opinion from you guys. It's a thought that I'm sure has passed through all of our minds at one point or another, but to me it just sort of seems like Basalt's existence has become "accepted" since it was released.

You could make cases for other parts to be banned, such as 230, TH170, BD145, etc. and as some of you may remember, I used to be in the ban BD145 camp, but after giving it some thought lately, I've realized that Basalt is the crux of everything.

To me, it simply doesn't make sense that we should allow a Metal Wheel that is undeniably the absolute best in two categories–Defense and Stamina (not to mention it's use in "anti-meta" Attack)–to exist in competitive play. Think about everything that it makes obsolete (or near obsolete): Virgo, Libra, Earth, Burn, Flame, and Scythe.

I think the final straw was the release of Scythe, a completely circular disc, and even it cannot best Basalt in a straight up Stamina battle (okay, the jury is still sort of out on whether Scythe is actually better than Basalt ... but overall, I think Basalt gives you a much better chance to win in more situations). This has nothing to do with Scythe being bad, it has everything to do with Basalt being overpowered. Basalt is an completely circular cylinder that is what, at least six, seven grams heavier than any other Metal Wheel in existence? Is this good for the game?

It's the Libra problem all over again, except this is worse because even Libra wasn't the best Stamina Wheel available in its time. And looking back, I feel like one of the largest factors in the banning of Libra was the psychological fear surrounding it and the use of Attack types at the time. The fear surrounding Attack types is no longer nearly as prevalent. Back then we didn't give Attack enough credit, despite the poor Tornado Ridge on the Attack Stadium. This problem is not psychological at all; Basalt simply is the best and I predict that nothing will ever eclipse it. It's not unbeatable, but it allows for zero deviation in two of the three major types of Beyblades.

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Here are a few quotes from our discussion about Basalt:

You're absolutely right; Basalt is a stronger, more influential part than BD145. I don't know though; why ban it now, when we've never banned it before? Just playing devil's advocate, but viable counters to Basalt already exist, too. I don't really have an argument against that.

Counters do indeed exist, but what I'm trying to emphasize is that despite it's fallibility, it is still overpowered in general. Libra wasn't unbeatable either, but we still banned it.

edit: Just want to ask, which "counters" are you referring to? There are counters to specific customizations that use Basalt, but the main problem is that there is nothing that can beat Basalt in pure endurance and defensive ability (not to mention it's use in anti-meta Attack customs, as I stated in the OP).

Yeah, I was definitely talking about counters to specific Basalt customisations, but your point about it dominating Defense and Stamina is definitely valid and one which I agree with.

Like Blitz, I would absolutely love to see tournaments without Basalt, since I believe that we'd see a lot more variation. I'm leaning towards it being banned, even though I am really reluctant to see us take this sort of action. Like I mentioned before, unlike the Libra situation where contemporary Attack Wheels were not all that strong, we are now in a phase where I doubt, judging from Takara Tomy's designs (compared to say, something like Samurai Upper of HMS), we will ever get anything potent enough to damage Basalt in any significant way. As a result, I'm certainly not optimistic of this ban ever getting overturned if we announce it. I guess that's a separate issue altogether, but it's something to think about, I guess.

Exactly. We would. I think it's important for us to consider what might happen if we do ban it, so I've outlined a few general predictions here:

• An increase in the use of Attack types.
  
• As a result of the increased used of Attack types, there would also be an increase in the use of parts like RS, a part which is basically non-existant in competitive play right now, at least in Toronto.
  
• A whole crop of Wheels would become competitively viable again: Earth, Burn, Flame, Virgo, Libra, and Scythe (or for the first time in the case of Scythe imo. It's done well in tests, but I've felt like it was more of the Track or Bottom's doing in those cases than due to Scythe's great Stamina).
  
• Crazy powerful Balance customizations like MF-H Basalt Aquario TH170CS/WD/MF/etc. would not be as terrifying without the use of Basalt. Using the same custom with Earth or Libra would still be good, but it would also be easier to KO.
  
• bye bye mf-h basalt aquario bd145cs/mb
  

There will be more changes, but these would be the most basic ones I think we would see. They all sound good, don't they?

If it never gets unbanned, who's fault is it, really? It's TAKARA-TOMY's for releasing such an overpowered Metal Wheel in the first place.

(By the way, Lightning L Drago came out in July 2009 and Libra was banned in May 2010 ... so it's not fair to say that "contemporary Attack Wheels were not all that strong"! Pegasis, though its impressive Smash Attack was not well known at the time, was also around. As I said before, I think it was more of a psychological problem than anything else, looking back).

Hm, I had the impression BD145 was SPAMmed in many different combinations more, where it almost did not matter what Metal Wheel you would use sometimes.


It seems that it is indeed used a lot, but how does that compare to Libra's use ?

You could argue that it is spammed more than Basalt, and what you mention regarding that it almost does not matter what Metal Wheel you use sometimes is certainly true to some degree. However, the point I'm trying to make here about Basalt is not even about how much it is spammed, it's simply about how ridiculous and damaging to the games future I'm realizing it is to allow a Metal Wheel with such high performance in almost all three major types be legal in competitive play.


I went through all of the quotes you pulled from the Winning Combinations thread and here are the stats (I went through them quickly, so their may be some inaccuracies):

- 18 Tournaments listed
- 40 placements listed (sometimes it was just one person who posted what they used, instead of the top three)
- 55 customs listed: 23 included Basalt (42%) (55 customs were listed because some Bladers listed the customs they used frequently throughout the tournament, rather than just the one combo they used in the final match ... I'd imagine if everyone did this, we would see even more Basalt combos appearing)

But again, talking about how successful or not it is in particular tournaments is not what this is about. Circumstances vary in tournaments around the world, and it's very possible for someone to still place with something like Earth Bull 145WD, but that doesn't mean Earth Bull 145WD is still a competitive combination when it is brought to the highest level with the likes of Basalt.

I don't think it's fair to compare actual stats of how much Basalt is used in comparison with Libra (if those stats did exist) because there were much less parts available back when Libra was dominating. That said, because Basalt is a much better Wheel than Libra was, it's easy to see how much of a problem it is ... and I've outlined all of the reasons why that is in the OP.

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In case you missed it, here is something else I posted recently in the Jade Jupiter thread:

So Jade in total weighs 39.15 grams.

That's disappointing. It's interesting how TAKARA-TOMY has thus far not been scared to match or exceed the "maximum" properties of the other Maximum Series Beyblades (Hell is no longer the widest Wheel, EDS is arguably just as good as EWD depending on the situation, TH170 is an infinitely more useful part than 230), yet they haven't really gone near Basalt's weight yet.

It's like the Libra problem all over again, except this time they're trying to correct it by releasing all of these ridiculously designed high recoil Wheels like Vari Ares and Blitz.

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And just as a note: All of this was written between July 26th-29th, and thus, it was before Phantom Orion B was completely revealed. We'll have to see how Phantom turns out, but nevertheless, everything said here still stands.

First off, I want to thank you for making this tread for the General forum. I think it'll satisfy a lot of members who didn't feel like they had a say in anything.

My personal view is, as others have said, that there are plenty of counters to Basalt-oriented combos. It would be meaningless to ban it, seeing as a decent attack combo such as MF Lightning L-Drago BD145RF/LRF can defeat it. It's unlike the Libra ban, since (from my undersanding) there were no counters to Libra.

So, in my honest opinion, I think that the rules should remain as they are, keeping Basalt legal. As I said earlier in my post, there are effective counters for it, and surely there are more to come.

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I do believe Basalt is overpowered. The fact that it is the heaviest and is circular meaning that no contact points so it is much harder to KO. The fact that there are counters doesn't mean that it isn't an overpowered piece because it is a big competitor in all types. I think a ban on basalt would even the playing field for the use of more diverse combos. It could come back in the future as more parts are released but at the moment it is too strong.

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if basalt is banned then attack will surely rise up again, but personally i do not think this is much of a problem

back when MF earth bull GB145RS/RSF/CS was around attack ruled, yet (in toronto at least) many people were still using low track stamina combos because they found attack to risky (because of self KOs, and many people didn't/don't have a takara attack stadium to practice attack types correctly), and IIRC lots of the tournaments had a stamina combo as first, second, or third place winners

but then again, banning basalt may not be the best idea. personally i think that basalt shouldn't be banned, but the combos MF-H basalt bull BD145CS/MB should be banned


after a while i thought a bit different

how about instead of banning or restricting basalt, we try out the double format idea?

one format where you can use the maxmum series and beyond, and one where you can only use parts from before maximum like in Yamislayer's thread http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Beyblade...at-testing ? i think it would be a better idea

edit: thanks for making this thread heart

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I think we should restrict Basalt from tracks like BD145, 230 and TH170. That way, you either use Basalt GB145 or use Libra BD145 for Defense. Stamina types would be given a chance.

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I think we should restrict Basalt from tracks like BD145, 230 and TH170. That way, you either use Basalt GB145 or use Libra BD145 for Defense. Stamina types would be given a chance.

1I agree with N's choice. Basalt BD145/230/TH170 tooo overpowred like superman. Sure theres been a few kryptonites, but the majority of its winning rates would be the Max Series height>TH170. Which annoys me and needs to stop. Basalt basically makes anything overpowered IMO.

2 I think we sould hold off the banning till B : D comes in the metagame and see what the outcome is so Im a neutral here.

3 I would love to see attack types dominating again for sure. Libra>Earth>HellBD145 = Balanced metagame =T.

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Basalt should be entirely banned! If it was banned from certain tracks or Basalt Aquario BD145CS/MB that would be good but bad.
Here in London, Basalt is used on BD145MB/CS, 230CS/D and TH170CS/D. If they were banned on Basalt, attack types would rule using Basalt. EG: MF-H Basalt Bull CH120MF/RF is a killer combo.

Umless Basalt is banned entirely, the metagame would be even harder to defeat because Basalt would be used in attack combos. Its already happening over here...

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While we see Basalt as being in general, ''hard to knock out'', we can also think of it as a barrier that should be overcome. While there are many combinations that we've used in the past to stop such heavy Defense Types along the lines with BD145MB/CS. Each of these combinations, though, have a goof fixed ratio of winning half-to-half. Honestly, if we want to get better with Basalt, members cannot just take first luck as their goal. They would need to look over the Beyblade Customizations Forum, to actually see what is going on around, or what's not. It's no trend thing, but serious, Lightning, Gravity, VariAres, and even Fang; if they are used properly, can be used to fight effectively with Basalt. No matter how we look at it, we have to remember then that Libra and Earth won't put any more help on 230 than Basalt is excelling as of now.

Looking around now, it is quite easy with the current combos in the Metagame to actually fight aggressively with a Basaly 230 combo, nontheless most win ratios be 1:1, 50-50. People don't get how big even a 50% win%age is against Basalt, you're guarenteed a right or wrong in same quanitity. Using these new wheels coming out, even wheels like Blitz are worth fightning with it and they've come out prior a week before this thread. As time progresses, we will get new, and better attackers that I'm sure will put a frown on even the most confident Basalt users.

What is not good, though, is how people are expecting a sure chance of winnning a toruney with Basalt... Looking at it that way, we have to do something of actually updating a list that's good on Basalt in an order from best to worst. Who wouldn't like that? Maybe some wouldn't, but surely more of the Advanced Members here know how Basalt's weak points, am I wrong? Therefore, when the Metagame progresses, we might actually need a new, better Defense Type that can take down the new Attack Wheels. Next we have to think about the negatives, surely of what would happen in a banned perspective. If we ban it, people will not trust good 'ol Libra and Earth, becauase Earth is paper and new attackers are the scissors when it comes to that. I hope new releses can help this, and play some patchwork. Honestly, though, I'm sure we will see a variant of more 4D Wheels being used in the ban of Basalt.

Has anyone here tried using Big Bang and winning in a tourney? I know someone who has against another guy who only/mainly used Basalt that tourney. This leads into a stir-up of different but well thought explanations, for clearly if we want to do anything, we should initiate a ban structure that could include specific weights and/or special rates when being thrown out. To balance anything, you need to take away weight, and I do not mean Basalt's weight, I mean theoretically its used amount weight. By eliminating a specific combination, such as Basalt on BD145MB, we are helping ourselves comeover the danger that coukd ruin everything than of just banning it in general. Some new 4D System Attackers are being underappreciated. Look at L-Drago Destroy or Big Bang, perhaps. No one wants to test them other than of what Oki did, and therefore they think it will just suck like that.

If we try with new variation of parts, and start banning certain combinations or just one, we can get somewhere because we might actially be balancing out what is used. A lot of users with also be getting 'Twisted Tempo' being released by Hasbro, abd personally owning the TAKARA-TOMY Basalt, I feel first time Basalt users will be not happy, we could say, with this, and it wouldn't be fair because all we would be seeing, as Galaxy pointed out, is useless Attack VS. Attack. All in all, we can see Libra still coming back because even WBBA had a problem with it. But that doesn't mean it can just come back and settle like Basalt is. New Attackers will obviously taske it down as well, therefore,, we must keep ourselves from ruining what is nearly perfect now, to what could be just useless battles proving really nothing as someone with Basalt and a mediocre Attack Wheel. There is a way to stop these things, RS, just use Scyhe with a well balanced Stamina bottom. CS? Use Lightning, Gravity, VariAres, Beat, and Fang... There are so many too choose, but you have to know how to use them to make them effective said against a typical Basalt combination. It will remain a wall unless we don't tear it down.

Next issue is B:D, personally, I do not understand how we could worry about it right now as Yami mentioned in his post. How do we not know how weak in defense B:D will be, nor actually the Stamina? After tests, we could take a look, but seeing the exxageration on the picture for smoothness, I doubt it wil have much Defense. I'm pretty sure for now that it wouldn't be hard to counter it with itself, and it being a nedw part abd all it won't be spreading too fast for us not to get up to date with it.

Therefore, if we look at everything we have now, we shouldn't ban Basalt, but rather waiting to see what will happen in the Metagame and banning specefic combinations.

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In your metagame? I see, but if Basalt was banned entirely, Left Spin and Right attackers would dominamte but mosty left spin. Metagame would be simpiler and balanced. Your metagame seems diffeerent. I only used basalt as an attack like twice. It worked most of the time lol.

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this should most definatly not be banned becuase there are counters to the combos (if there were no counters then i would agree)

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BeyBladestation, please use paragraphs. That's borderline impossible to read.

Thanks Heart for bringing this here anyways
I honestly dont think we should ban it as this is very different from what happened with Libra
Libra WAS overpowered and made the game into a rock paper scissors scenario.
Basalt on the other hand makes most bladers use their skills to win in my opinion.

Without skill you cant beat basalt unless you have luck.the right combo could do the job but yeah it comes down to how you use it. When using MF LLD BD145RF against the tank that is MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145CS/MB normal people would lose by not being able to KO Basalt . and not to brag but someone like me with skill could do the job by just using the right launch and move basalt out.
We banned Libra because it ruined the meta game. But Basalt on the other hand balances it out by FORCING bladers to use their skill.

Basalt shouldnt be bannded as it gives our metagame a reason to go on.
I mean seriously before Basalt was born people stopped making attack combos completely just because they were satisfied with what they had.

But with the creation of basalt even after MF LLD BD145RF was made people are still trying to find the Full proof
win against the wheel known as Basalt!

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Basalt on the other hand makes most bladers use their skills to win in my opinion.

Without skill you cant beat basalt unless you have luck.the right combo could do the job but yeah it comes down to how you use it.
We banned Libra because it ruined the meta game. But Basalt on the other hand balances it out by FORCING bladers to use their skill.

back when MF earth bull GB145RS/RSF/CS was around attack ruled, yet (in toronto at least) many people were still using low track stamina combos because they found attack to risky (because of self KOs, and many people didn't/don't have a takara attack stadium to practice attack types correctly), and IIRC lots of the tournaments had a stamina combo as first, second, or third place winners

so many people don't have enough skill because they don't have the correct stadium to test in

now, this banning is to bring back more parts
basalt has made many parts useless/near useless:
vulcan
burn
earth
virgo
just to name a few

all of those are good parts, but basalt has destroyed them

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Ive mentioned this in random thoughts and I'm gonna say it again
those parts had their time and are outclassed because of the fact that Basalt is just more powerful
just because Basalt outclasses some parts doesnt mean we should ban it I mean seriously are we going to ban a wheel because it renders some parts useless ...and if so why do i...t we should deal with the fact that Takara tomy released Basalt as it is.
This is nothing like the Libra scenario

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I agree almost all attack combos are dead against Basalt BD145CS/MB,and seeing this combo being used alot,I think in my mind that with this thing dominating attack types are going down the drain.But,I'm not talking for only Attack type,other types to are being took down by this,sure there combos that can beat it,but I also think
that Basalt BD145CS/MB should be banned for a short amount of the time, until it is not so much overpowering.

I end my case.

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are you serious Ultimate Kcpj did you read my post at all Basalt doesnt render attack types useless at all.
billions of combos can beat basalt combos without a problem. sure lots of attack types cant do so but at the same time lots can.

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In your metagame? I see, but if Basalt was banned entirely, Left Spin and Right attackers would dominamte but mosty left spin. Metagame would be simpiler and balanced. Your metagame seems diffeerent. I only used basalt as an attack like twice. It worked most of the time lol.

It would just leave Attack VS. Attack, once again.

BeyBladestation, please use paragraphs. That's borderline impossible to read.

Done.

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i think they should not ban basalt because if strong parts are not there then wat will be the fun in blading? well... if subject is "always basalt wins" then no! any bey can win with basalt i know its hard but we can with skill and power nothing is impossible even my friend have defeated basalt i havent battled still with it <<<< sorry for off topic it should not banned!

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H8R: it is not really just because it beats attack:

To me, it simply doesn't make sense that we should allow a Metal Wheel that is undeniably the absolute best in two categories–Defense and Stamina (not to mention it's use in "anti-meta" Attack)–to exist in competitive play. Think about everything that it makes obsolete (or near obsolete): Virgo, Libra, Earth, Burn, Flame, and Scythe.

I think the final straw was the release of Scythe, a completely circular disc, and even it cannot best Basalt in a straight up Stamina battle (okay, the jury is still sort of out on whether Scythe is actually better than Basalt ... but overall, I think Basalt gives you a much better chance to win in more situations). This has nothing to do with Scythe being bad, it has everything to do with Basalt being overpowered. Basalt is an completely circular cylinder that is what, at least six, seven grams heavier than any other Metal Wheel in existence? Is this good for the game?

It's not unbeatable, but it allows for zero deviation in two of the three major types of Beyblades.

from the OP

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how about instead of banning or restricting basalt, we try out the double format idea?

one format where you can use the maxmum series and beyond, and one where you can only use parts from before maximum like in Yamislayer's thread http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Beyblade...at-testing ? i think it would be a better idea

edit: thanks for making this thread heart

I vote for this idea.

Instead of banning basalt, we should give tournament organizers a choice. They can choose to have a tournament where you can use the new, current top-tier combos, or you can have a "classic" tournament where you can only use Beyblades released before the maximum series.

H8R,Im not talking about Basalt combos,but Basalt BD145CS/MB

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GT: KJ Dayo

@lordwolfblade
Whats the point thats like having two different meta games at the same time

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As Mc Frown said on the advanced forum thread we are not used to defense beating attack like it's supposed to. Basalt has finally put attack types on their place and it seems that Takara Tomy was aiming to do this the entire time. I think that Takara knew the potential of basalt and gave it the "staircase" as a handicap so it would be able to stop attack types and be beaten by stamina. The only problem is it didn't work. IMO the best solution would be to Temporally ban certain basalt combos until the B is released and tested so that everything is balanced the way it's supposed to be. Attack>Stamina>Defense>Attack.

Now of course that means that parts like vulcan rock flame etc will be almost useless so Yamislayer's idea of a second format could allow players to use older and "outclassed" parts without worrying about basalt

how about instead of banning or restricting basalt, we try out the double format idea?

one format where you can use the maxmum series and beyond, and one where you can only use parts from before maximum like in Yamislayer's thread http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Beyblade...at-testing ? i think it would be a better idea

edit: thanks for making this thread heart

I vote for this idea.

Instead of banning basalt, we should give tournament organizers a choice. They can choose to have a tournament where you can use the new, current top-tier combos, or you can have a "classic" tournament where you can only use Beyblades released before the maximum series.

thankyou

IMO it will make those who want to ban basalt, and those who don't both happy

@lordwolfblade
Whats the point thats like having two different meta games at the same time

thats exactly the point

read that thread and this thread http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Do-we-ne...ond-format and you should understand

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@everyone
making two formats will make two metagames whats the point of that!?
banning combos such as MF-H basalt Kerbecs BD145CS will be the same as banning basalt as that combo in particular is the most useful one thus people would stop using basalt completely except for a few people with guts

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