(Aug. 10, 2011  6:31 PM)Kei Wrote: Should we ban Basalt? The Committee has been debating this issue for a few weeks now, and we figured that it might be a good idea to get an opinion from you guys. It's a thought that I'm sure has passed through all of our minds at one point or another, but to me it just sort of seems like Basalt's existence has become "accepted" since it was released.

You could make cases for other parts to be banned, such as 230, TH170, BD145, etc. and as some of you may remember, I used to be in the ban BD145 camp, but after giving it some thought lately, I've realized that Basalt is the crux of everything.

To me, it simply doesn't make sense that we should allow a Metal Wheel that is undeniably the absolute best in two categories–Defense and Stamina (not to mention it's use in "anti-meta" Attack)–to exist in competitive play. Think about everything that it makes obsolete (or near obsolete): Virgo, Libra, Earth, Burn, Flame, and Scythe.

I think the final straw was the release of Scythe, a completely circular disc, and even it cannot best Basalt in a straight up Stamina battle (okay, the jury is still sort of out on whether Scythe is actually better than Basalt ... but overall, I think Basalt gives you a much better chance to win in more situations). This has nothing to do with Scythe being bad, it has everything to do with Basalt being overpowered. Basalt is an completely circular cylinder that is what, at least six, seven grams heavier than any other Metal Wheel in existence? Is this good for the game?

It's the Libra problem all over again, except this is worse because even Libra wasn't the best Stamina Wheel available in its time. And looking back, I feel like one of the largest factors in the banning of Libra was the psychological fear surrounding it and the use of Attack types at the time. The fear surrounding Attack types is no longer nearly as prevalent. Back then we didn't give Attack enough credit, despite the poor Tornado Ridge on the Attack Stadium. This problem is not psychological at all; Basalt simply is the best and I predict that nothing will ever eclipse it. It's not unbeatable, but it allows for zero deviation in two of the three major types of Beyblades.

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Here are a few quotes from our discussion about Basalt:

♥ Wrote:You're absolutely right; Basalt is a stronger, more influential part than BD145. I don't know though; why ban it now, when we've never banned it before? Just playing devil's advocate, but viable counters to Basalt already exist, too. I don't really have an argument against that.

Kei Wrote:Counters do indeed exist, but what I'm trying to emphasize is that despite it's fallibility, it is still overpowered in general. Libra wasn't unbeatable either, but we still banned it.

edit: Just want to ask, which "counters" are you referring to? There are counters to specific customizations that use Basalt, but the main problem is that there is nothing that can beat Basalt in pure endurance and defensive ability (not to mention it's use in anti-meta Attack customs, as I stated in the OP).

♥ Wrote:Yeah, I was definitely talking about counters to specific Basalt customisations, but your point about it dominating Defense and Stamina is definitely valid and one which I agree with.

Like Blitz, I would absolutely love to see tournaments without Basalt, since I believe that we'd see a lot more variation. I'm leaning towards it being banned, even though I am really reluctant to see us take this sort of action. Like I mentioned before, unlike the Libra situation where contemporary Attack Wheels were not all that strong, we are now in a phase where I doubt, judging from Takara Tomy's designs (compared to say, something like Samurai Upper of HMS), we will ever get anything potent enough to damage Basalt in any significant way. As a result, I'm certainly not optimistic of this ban ever getting overturned if we announce it. I guess that's a separate issue altogether, but it's something to think about, I guess.

Kei Wrote:Exactly. We would. I think it's important for us to consider what might happen if we do ban it, so I've outlined a few general predictions here:

• An increase in the use of Attack types.
  
• As a result of the increased used of Attack types, there would also be an increase in the use of parts like RS, a part which is basically non-existant in competitive play right now, at least in Toronto.
  
• A whole crop of Wheels would become competitively viable again: Earth, Burn, Flame, Virgo, Libra, and Scythe (or for the first time in the case of Scythe imo. It's done well in tests, but I've felt like it was more of the Track or Bottom's doing in those cases than due to Scythe's great Stamina).
  
• Crazy powerful Balance customizations like MF-H Basalt Aquario TH170CS/WD/MF/etc. would not be as terrifying without the use of Basalt. Using the same custom with Earth or Libra would still be good, but it would also be easier to KO.
  
• bye bye mf-h basalt aquario bd145cs/mb
  

There will be more changes, but these would be the most basic ones I think we would see. They all sound good, don't they?

If it never gets unbanned, who's fault is it, really? It's TAKARA-TOMY's for releasing such an overpowered Metal Wheel in the first place.

(By the way, Lightning L Drago came out in July 2009 and Libra was banned in May 2010 ... so it's not fair to say that "contemporary Attack Wheels were not all that strong"! Pegasis, though its impressive Smash Attack was not well known at the time, was also around. As I said before, I think it was more of a psychological problem than anything else, looking back).

Kei Wrote:

Kai-V Wrote:Hm, I had the impression BD145 was SPAMmed in many different combinations more, where it almost did not matter what Metal Wheel you would use sometimes.


It seems that it is indeed used a lot, but how does that compare to Libra's use ?

You could argue that it is spammed more than Basalt, and what you mention regarding that it almost does not matter what Metal Wheel you use sometimes is certainly true to some degree. However, the point I'm trying to make here about Basalt is not even about how much it is spammed, it's simply about how ridiculous and damaging to the games future I'm realizing it is to allow a Metal Wheel with such high performance in almost all three major types be legal in competitive play.


I went through all of the quotes you pulled from the Winning Combinations thread and here are the stats (I went through them quickly, so their may be some inaccuracies):

- 18 Tournaments listed
- 40 placements listed (sometimes it was just one person who posted what they used, instead of the top three)
- 55 customs listed: 23 included Basalt (42%) (55 customs were listed because some Bladers listed the customs they used frequently throughout the tournament, rather than just the one combo they used in the final match ... I'd imagine if everyone did this, we would see even more Basalt combos appearing)

But again, talking about how successful or not it is in particular tournaments is not what this is about. Circumstances vary in tournaments around the world, and it's very possible for someone to still place with something like Earth Bull 145WD, but that doesn't mean Earth Bull 145WD is still a competitive combination when it is brought to the highest level with the likes of Basalt.

I don't think it's fair to compare actual stats of how much Basalt is used in comparison with Libra (if those stats did exist) because there were much less parts available back when Libra was dominating. That said, because Basalt is a much better Wheel than Libra was, it's easy to see how much of a problem it is ... and I've outlined all of the reasons why that is in the OP.

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In case you missed it, here is something else I posted recently in the Jade Jupiter thread:

(Aug. 08, 2011  11:14 PM)Kei Wrote:

(Aug. 08, 2011  3:49 PM)Kai-V Wrote: So Jade in total weighs 39.15 grams.

That's disappointing. It's interesting how TAKARA-TOMY has thus far not been scared to match or exceed the "maximum" properties of the other Maximum Series Beyblades (Hell is no longer the widest Wheel, EDS is arguably just as good as EWD depending on the situation, TH170 is an infinitely more useful part than 230), yet they haven't really gone near Basalt's weight yet.

It's like the Libra problem all over again, except this time they're trying to correct it by releasing all of these ridiculously designed high recoil Wheels like Vari Ares and Blitz.

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And just as a note: All of this was written between July 26th-29th, and thus, it was before Phantom Orion B was completely revealed. We'll have to see how Phantom turns out, but nevertheless, everything said here still stands.

(Aug. 13, 2011  3:53 PM)Mr. N Wrote: I think we should restrict Basalt from tracks like BD145, 230 and TH170. That way, you either use Basalt GB145 or use Libra BD145 for Defense. Stamina types would be given a chance.

(Aug. 13, 2011  4:18 PM)H8R Wrote: Basalt on the other hand makes most bladers use their skills to win in my opinion.

Without skill you cant beat basalt unless you have luck.the right combo could do the job but yeah it comes down to how you use it.
We banned Libra because it ruined the meta game. But Basalt on the other hand balances it out by FORCING bladers to use their skill.

(Aug. 13, 2011  3:48 PM)lord Wolfblade Wrote: back when MF earth bull GB145RS/RSF/CS was around attack ruled, yet (in toronto at least) many people were still using low track stamina combos because they found attack to risky (because of self KOs, and many people didn't/don't have a takara attack stadium to practice attack types correctly), and IIRC lots of the tournaments had a stamina combo as first, second, or third place winners

(Aug. 13, 2011  4:09 PM)® Wrote: In your metagame? I see, but if Basalt was banned entirely, Left Spin and Right attackers would dominamte but mosty left spin. Metagame would be simpiler and balanced. Your metagame seems diffeerent. I only used basalt as an attack like twice. It worked most of the time lol.

(Aug. 13, 2011  4:17 PM)♥ Wrote: BeyBladestation, please use paragraphs. That's borderline impossible to read.

Quote:To me, it simply doesn't make sense that we should allow a Metal Wheel that is undeniably the absolute best in two categories–Defense and Stamina (not to mention it's use in "anti-meta" Attack)–to exist in competitive play. Think about everything that it makes obsolete (or near obsolete): Virgo, Libra, Earth, Burn, Flame, and Scythe.

I think the final straw was the release of Scythe, a completely circular disc, and even it cannot best Basalt in a straight up Stamina battle (okay, the jury is still sort of out on whether Scythe is actually better than Basalt ... but overall, I think Basalt gives you a much better chance to win in more situations). This has nothing to do with Scythe being bad, it has everything to do with Basalt being overpowered. Basalt is an completely circular cylinder that is what, at least six, seven grams heavier than any other Metal Wheel in existence? Is this good for the game?

Quote:It's not unbeatable, but it allows for zero deviation in two of the three major types of Beyblades.

(Aug. 13, 2011  3:48 PM)lord Wolfblade Wrote: how about instead of banning or restricting basalt, we try out the double format idea?

one format where you can use the maxmum series and beyond, and one where you can only use parts from before maximum like in Yamislayer's thread http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Beyblade-Rebirth-Format-testing ? i think it would be a better idea

edit: thanks for making this thread heart

(Aug. 13, 2011  4:35 PM)Bey-Heart Wrote:

(Aug. 13, 2011  3:48 PM)lord Wolfblade Wrote: how about instead of banning or restricting basalt, we try out the double format idea?

one format where you can use the maxmum series and beyond, and one where you can only use parts from before maximum like in Yamislayer's thread http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Beyblade-Rebirth-Format-testing ? i think it would be a better idea

edit: thanks for making this thread heart

I vote for this idea.

Instead of banning basalt, we should give tournament organizers a choice. They can choose to have a tournament where you can use the new, current top-tier combos, or you can have a "classic" tournament where you can only use Beyblades released before the maximum series.

(Aug. 13, 2011  4:37 PM)H8R Wrote: @lordwolfblade
Whats the point thats like having two different meta games at the same time