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Phantom (Attack) Hades 90MF (Updated 6/11/12)

Jun. 12, 2012  7:29 AM
 
I had been using AD145 in what was basically an otherwise identical setup, which Dan had mentioned to me as being effective. I haven't had a chance to try 90, but Phantom really doesn't have that much recoil, certainly nothing that MF cannot control.

I hadn't tried lower tracks because I didn't think it would handle tall stamina combinations effectively, but these results make me question that, and I will try to play around with it.

There are a couple of things I'd like to see though, TH170D (170 height) and 230D stamina opponents, as you mentioned Phantom hitting TH170, and 230 is much more conservative, while TH170, well, just because it's not up there and it might be better (my memory of the best modes for it for various opponents is kinda fuzzy).

The other thing is, do you have any tests of your duo vs your phantom in identical setups? My Phantom is about the same weight as my Duo, but beats it when it "should" lose.
Jun. 13, 2012  2:57 AM
 
I tried it out today on Duo AD145WD and I couldn't get an OS on 85 However it deswtablized more and got some OS it broke throuhg defense I imagine you didn't use 85 for tall tracks but 90 isn't much taller but I agree with what th!nk said tall is this beys defeat in my unWBO testintg it couldn't win
Jun. 13, 2012  4:46 AM
 
The piece choices were very specific, and I've done a lot of testing when it comes to track height. 90 worked by far the best, much better than 85 at getting KOs on 145 and TH220 track heights. Also, your clear wheel matters greatly (much more greatly than I originally thought), and that could be the difference in your ability to OS Duo. You might try a solo spin test; with an average launch from a Beylauncher into a tornado stall, the custom should solo spin for at least 5 minutes.

I'll upload testing vs. 230 soon. It is certainly harder to defeat as evidenced by the MF-H Duo Cancer 230MB testing, but it's not impossible; I honestly just haven't figured out what the best way to launch against it is yet. I have gotten some lucky KOs by shooting this custom into a flower pattern, but Tornado Stalling seems safer... I just don't know yet, and I was holding off on posting test results until I decided the best method of attack.

EDIT: TH170 at 170 height didn't fare much better against this custom than the two other heights if I remember correctly, but I'll do some official testing.
Jun. 18, 2012  3:37 AM
 
thanks for the tests sorry this is so late went to NY! I'm interested in what clear wheels work the best if you could try jupiter and gill ( just for the all purple color ) that would be great ( i want it to be like strata dragoon v with mf and all ) hades seems a bit odd to. i'd do the tests myself but my stadium and launcher burned in a house fire :- if not what tier rings might work... stamina..a bit of attack i don't know why i think orion
Jun. 18, 2012  3:07 PM
 
Yikes, a house fire? Are you okay? Lips_sealed

I did a bunch of testing on clear wheels and Hades gave me the best solo spin time. Cancer was a close-ish second, and Aquario didn't do well at all. I'll try Orion and Gil, but I don't have Jupiter yet. Isn't Gil off-balance, though? This custom thrives on its solo spin time; it's a stamina type custom first that can also attack.

From a purely asthetics point of view, Hades actually fits the color scheme of the PC frame and the track/tip if you're using the two pieces from Screw Capricorne.
Jun. 19, 2012  4:07 AM
 
same with jupiter thats what i use ik it is stamina, and i just wanted a good color sceam parts like aquario, bull, and kerbecs that are used for stamina and defence are to heavy for a tornado taller compared to lighter clear wheels with good stamina like cancer. the fire destroyed a lot but my beys were in a protective case that survived, but not my gear or stadium. jupiter is only about a gram heavyer than hades i think he will be alrighgt
Jun. 27, 2012  7:51 AM
 
have you tried phantom hades 230 mf yet(i cant test it i have no bb-10)using 230 while on a tornado stall makes
the metal wheel hard to hit
the only down side i see with 230 is u can`t KO other combos but this combo was not built to KO anyways
Jun. 27, 2012  7:56 AM
 
If it can't KO other combos, it's not going to be that useful, Phantom on 230 is ridiculously easy to KO, meaning there's no advantage to using that over a conventional stamina setup.
Jun. 27, 2012  8:13 AM
 
Actually, this custom was specifically built to be able to KO other Stamina types, which is why I picked 90 instead of other tracks. Using tips like MF and WF on 230 or TH170 has its merits, but this custom is designed to take advantage of Phantom's attack mode as much as possible specifically to get those KOs. Furthermore, I found it marginally easier to KO most Stamina types utilizing MF/WF on taller tracks than those using those tips on shorter tracks due to the higher center of gravity; 230 does provide protection from low attackers, certainly, but this custom fares just as poorly on 230 as it does on 90 against most attackers on a 120 height and up (read: every attacker in this meta, basically). So, this custom just accepts that it, like conventional Stamina types, loses to attackers, and utilizes 90 for its versatility over 230 for its minor protection.

I certainly did try 230 and TH170 as I mentioned in the OP, but they simply didn't work.
Jun. 27, 2012  9:29 AM
 
Then what would be the reason to use this over a conventional Attack Type if this was the built to KO Stamina Types (which attack types obviously do easily)? Especially if it still loses to Attack Types?
Jun. 27, 2012  9:30 AM
 
(Jun. 27, 2012  9:29 AM)Zancrow Wrote: Then what would be the reason to use this over a conventional Attack Type if this was the built to KO Stamina Types (which attack types obviously do easily)? Especially if it still loses to Attack Types?

Outspin Defense.
Jun. 27, 2012  9:34 AM
 
But then wouldn't just a regular stamina type be better? May not KO, but an OS is an OS.
Jun. 27, 2012  9:36 AM
 
Assuming you have a stamina type that can OS as significant a portion of opposing stamina types as this can KO/OS in total, sure, but I don't think we have that (due to track height matchups).

And, the other thing is that this will stand a better chance against Aggro Defenders than something on a WD tip as MF has decent defense (and the low track helps this somewhat).

In general, it's just more versatile, it doesn't need the extra stamina of a "proper" stamina tip - as you said "an OS is an OS".
Jun. 27, 2012  12:15 PM
 
(Jun. 27, 2012  9:34 AM)Zancrow Wrote: But then wouldn't just a regular stamina type be better? May not KO, but an OS is an OS.

In a recent tournament, I witnessed Basalt Aquario 230CS defeat Duo Aquario AD145WD 3-0, so a stamina type would not usually outspin defense most of the time...

I did some tests to show How Basalt 230CS beats Stamina, and is defeated by this combo... (I don't have Hades, so I used Cygnus...)

Format:
Spoiler (Click to View)

1st Battle: To show how some defense types beat Stamina...
2nd Battle: To show results from Direct Attack by Phantom 90MF VS Basalt 230CS...
3rd Battle: To show results from Tornado Stall by Phantom 90MF VS Basalt 230CS...

MF-F Basalt Aquario 230CS VS Phantom Cancer AD145WD
Basalt: 17/20 (All OS)
Phantom: 3/20 (All OS)
Basalt %: 85%

MF-F Basalt Aquario 230CS VS Phantom Cygnus 90MF (Direct attack)
Basalt: 19/20 (All OS)
Phantom: 1/20 (KO)
Basalt %: 95%

MF-F Basalt Aquario 230CS VS Phantom Cygnus 90MF (Tornado Stall)
Basalt: 6/20 (All OS)
Phantom: 14/20 (All OS)
Basalt %: 30%

This combo is able to outspin a tall defense type that often beats 145-height Stamina...
Jun. 29, 2012  7:59 AM
 
Basalt Aquario 230CS is not a Defense type; it's closer to being Balance.

Also, I would argue against the results you provided for it against Phantom Cancer AD145WD. I tend to get the exact opposite results in those types of matchups.
Jun. 29, 2012  8:12 AM
 
(Jun. 29, 2012  7:59 AM)Kei Wrote: Basalt Aquario 230CS is not a Defense type; it's closer to being Balance.

Also, I would argue against the results you provided for it against Phantom Cancer AD145WD. I tend to get the exact opposite results in those types of matchups.

It would be best to have testing to confirm it either way, tbh.
Jun. 29, 2012  5:01 PM
 
(Jun. 29, 2012  7:59 AM)Kei Wrote: Basalt Aquario 230CS is not a Defense type; it's closer to being Balance.

Also, I would argue against the results you provided for it against Phantom Cancer AD145WD. I tend to get the exact opposite results in those types of matchups.

Well, my testing showed Basalt 230CS was able to win by OS most of the time, and it's won 3-0 in many tournament match-ups. It even beat Duo Aquario AD145WD 3-1 (1 was a KO)...
Jul. 17, 2012  7:00 PM
 
Sounds like a good combo.DefStamina has some good reasoning.Phantom has SOME attack,but you should try Flash or Blitz.But if you don't have those wheels,I think you should stick with that.My Gil wouldn't stand a chance.
Jul. 17, 2012  7:46 PM
 
This is not an Attack combo though, so neither Blitz nor Flash would help this combo at all for what it ACTUALLY does.
Jul. 17, 2012  9:47 PM
 
(Jul. 17, 2012  7:46 PM)Zancrow Wrote: This is not an Attack combo though, so neither Blitz nor Flash would help this combo at all for what it ACTUALLY does.
Um,yes it is.Attack track and tip.Stamina wheel with attack.3/5 parts are attack
Jul. 17, 2012  9:49 PM
 
Dude. This is not a pure Attack combo. Flash and Blitz would not at all help with what this combo is trying to achieve.
Maybe you should try actually reading the original post of this thread.
Then, maybe, you could try and know what you're talking about..
Aug. 14, 2012  6:31 AM
 
This combo has helped me a lot, though I don't have Hades so I use Gash (atm) and I replace 90 with W145.
Aug. 14, 2012  6:36 AM
 
Basically an upgraded Phantom ___ AD145MF combo. Smile
Oct. 24, 2012  7:32 AM
 
Ingulit-this combo does surprisingly well.
i used it in the Mumbai tourney and won 4 of the 5 matches i used this combo.it outspun duo cancer ??? ewd used by gameboysuperman and everyone knows my bad launching skills but it's good at OS
Dec. 06, 2012  1:59 AM
 
after reading this thread, I went and built Phantom Kerbecs 90MF and it did pretty well as a tornado staller (what it was built to do) and it wasnt half bad at KO'ing out the stamina types and even some defense types I threw at it. It will OS most attack types (if either one doesnt get KO'ed first) and it worked pretty well, but I ran it through a tournement setting against some top tier combos and it didnt so well there.
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