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On the Limited Monthly Ban List Approvals.

Jan. 16, 2014  1:58 AM
 
It seems that Ingulit and th!nk want an opinion from us, the organizers about finalizing ban lists since this format relies heavily on tournament results to keep it health as a whole.

On the late-January update:

I say go ahead and do the update now so we have tournament results this weekend to see if our changes we for the best, so that way if anything goes in a way we didn't plan it is easily fixable for theFebruary update (or even an emergency ban?).

If this should be closed, by all means go ahead.
Jan. 16, 2014  2:12 AM
 
I say to update the list, too. However, I really would, at least for now, like to see Scythe banned.

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I completely agree with you, Ginga, Tongue_out.
Jan. 16, 2014  2:14 AM
 
I didn't see Scythe in Ingulit's proposal, I think it should be there on the ban list, for now at least.

Everything thing else I am A-OK with. I say go ahead and do the update for soon upcoming tournaments to see how they go. I hate to see Gravity go but if it helps the format, by all means do it!
Jan. 17, 2014  4:49 AM
 
Personally I'd rather hold off on any update til monday at least, and frankly I think the scythe discussion is going to drag it out til then anyway seeing as a lot of people aren't being very proactive about responding. Either way, holding off til monday at least will be what I'll formally suggest if discussion actually happens today. Of course, if there's significant resistance to that amongst hosts, then that carries a lot of weight for me personally (though in this case as I've said, I'm steadfastly opposed to any update aside from unbanning Omega unless Scythe is banned too, because format health comes first to me, so that is going to be my overriding prerogative in this).

Personally, I don't want to spring a change on people the day before a tournament and also I think as one or two places are looking at having their second tournament, it will be valuable to us in terms of looking at Gravity to see if any of the stuff that has happened between now and then has an impact on its usage, as the biggest argument against banning it is "people haven't had time to try other stuff" - now they have had more time we might get to assess that properly.

This should be the only time this happens though, the whole "oh hey we're pushing out an update in the next few days" thing coming out of the blue like that is extremely irresponsible and I have some stern words for those involved, seeing as most of the discussion apparently happened in private despite the fact there are perfectly suitable threads for that, I just got distracted with the Scythe stuff, but I digress; basically after this the update schedule should be set in stone, there is the matter of a possible emergency ban on Scythe (though I doubt even that will happen with the feb update being relatively close anyway), but generally there should be plenty of warning. But yeah, even though it's not my doing I feel like I should apologize on behalf of the advanced forum for this particular disruption.

As for people worrying about kinks, I wouldn't stress about it too much, I'm a very big proponent of "prevention is better than cure" with regards to what we expose tournaments to, so even when there are interactions between two arguably overpowering parts as is the case with gravity and scythe, I'll always try to err on the side of caution (i.e. the healthiest outcomes, even if they aren't the fastest route to the "end goal" as I see it).

Anyways, writing a post in the advanced forum discussion now saying we should hold off an update til feb first.
Jan. 17, 2014  5:01 AM
 
We have a limited tournament this weekend. Personally I say we hold off on any ban until Monday at the least. This event is a good way to determine what works in a tournament scene.
Jan. 17, 2014  5:18 AM
 
I think we should hold off the ban until the NC tournament at least, but it would be nice to see how different regions compare with Limited. I know that most people are backing the Gravity ban and all for good reasons, but I'm just a little apprehensive even if Omega gets unbanned. It would be nice if we could wait until the CT tournament & reassess from there, based off of their winning combinations.
Jan. 17, 2014  5:28 AM
 
Eh, there's questionable value in assessing the entire format based off a single metagame. Most places have their own peculiarities with regards to what gets used, so just because something doesn't succeed in one place doesn't mean it isn't extremely effective or whatever. It's a big part of why I put more weight on testing than tournament results compared to most people - you do have to adjust for certain factors but generally speaking, between the peculiarities of each area's metagame and also the fact that a single tournament match isn't exactly a big sample size (first to three is a lot less than 20 rounds), thorough testing is a lot more relevant (as I said, as long as you can properly adjust for the properties of tournaments).

Anyway I'm making a post in the advanced forum soon to suggest we hold off til february. May be a bit late for some of you, but it was the original plan and given when the format is announced, February 1st is still the first start of a month that takes place at least a month after Limited began. Plus, I'm more than a little peeved about the discussion about pushing out an update on short notice having taken place in private...
Jan. 17, 2014  5:50 AM
 
Well different regions certainly have different dominate combinations, but I would like to see how it goes in CT, since they haven't had a Limited tournament yet. Comparing what people mostly use in a few different states' metagame is helpful because from what I've noticed, those same combos will usually continue to dominate for a while. If there are certain regions that will rely less heavily on Gravity, then it might be better to hold off a ban unless it's showing up all over the winning combinations.
Jan. 17, 2014  7:11 AM
 
It's hard to provide a concrete explanation of how situations like that are managed, as it depends on a lot of different factors and it's definitely a personal thing - as I said, in my case, I put a fair amount of weight on testing for various reasons. We've seen a couple areas that didn't feature much gravity, but there are a lot of things that contribute to that, and sometimes some of those aren't particularly "valid" or whatever.

Personally though, I'm more interested in seeing if some of the areas that already hosted tournaments actually see a change in what is/isn't used and/or successful seeing as what we know etc has changed since then, though the format itself hasn't. As I said, this is mostly w/ regards to seeing what happens with gravity, and even then it's a case of whether the potential benefits (in this case, more info) will outweigh the potential costs (gravity possibly dominating again making the format seem boring). In this particular instance, personally I don't think gravity is so much of an issue that it is really going to be harmful to hold off, and I think the discussion about it will benefit from seeing if things change.
Jan. 17, 2014  6:54 PM
 
(Jan. 17, 2014  5:28 AM)th!nk Wrote: Anyway I'm making a post in the advanced forum soon to suggest we hold off til february. May be a bit late for some of you, but it was the original plan and given when the format is announced, February 1st is still the first start of a month that takes place at least a month after Limited began. Plus, I'm more than a little peeved about the discussion about pushing out an update on short notice having taken place in private...

I do not think anything fina lwas discussed in private ... I think it is more an instance where each person thinks a different part needs an immediate ban and there are a few tournaments coming up soon. That being said, I also agree with the side that opposes a new ban list on such a short notice in relation to those upcoming events.
Jan. 17, 2014  11:30 PM
 
(Jan. 17, 2014  6:54 PM)Kai-V Wrote:
(Jan. 17, 2014  5:28 AM)th!nk Wrote: Anyway I'm making a post in the advanced forum soon to suggest we hold off til february. May be a bit late for some of you, but it was the original plan and given when the format is announced, February 1st is still the first start of a month that takes place at least a month after Limited began. Plus, I'm more than a little peeved about the discussion about pushing out an update on short notice having taken place in private...

I do not think anything fina lwas discussed in private ... I think it is more an instance where each person thinks a different part needs an immediate ban and there are a few tournaments coming up soon. That being said, I also agree with the side that opposes a new ban list on such a short notice in relation to those upcoming events.

Still, having it come out of the blue like that was really not good - we should try to be more transparent with things like that IMO, shows the members what's going on and really, there's nothing to lose, it's not like it's a sensitive matter after all. Not to mention the fact the advanced forum could use the activity, and I think all of us there have something to contribute to such discussions even in a more formative stage (even moreso if some of us bring up stuff from the public thread for consideration as a lot of very insightful thoughts are posted there).

I've not seen any calls for an emergency ban on gravity, just for banning it as part of the update. I do not think there's been sufficient testing to show that gravity is actually game-breaking - it's dominant, yes, but its own versatility means type balance still remains relatively intact. I propose we hold off til monday, so everyone has 5 days notice and so we can all discuss this properly.