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MSF-H Phoenic Phoenic BD145RF

Jul. 02, 2012  3:56 AM
 
INTRODUCTION
Ever since the Phoenic chrome wheel came out, I was excited to see an attack wheel from Zero-G that might actually have some potential. As a fan of Blitz and Flash, I wanted to "graduate" my bey to Zero-G and finally have a Zero-G bey that I would use competitively.

The odd shape of the wheel seems to indicate that a Synchromed Phoenic wheel would lose most of its attack capability, but I wanted to test it out for myself. I tried using a MSF-H Phoenic Phoenic TH170XF at our recently concluded Smash Attack! tournament and went 2-1, losing to Shogun and his MF-M Duo Aquario 230WD. Shogun eventually went on to win the tournament, but I was intrigued because every single one of my wins were stadium KOs. Opponents' beys would fly out of the stadium, which was extremely satisfactory. I even got one out from Shogun, but failed to connect the other two times.

Very quick testing the night before also indicated very promising results, as it would knock even heavy beys like Basalt or Diablo out of the stadium and suffering very little recoil in return. After the tournament, I decided to rework my concept and test the wheel again.

THE COMBO
MSF-H - With no stamina to speak of, the aim now was to make a heavy bey with powerful enough smash, so I chose to use the heaviest available Face Bolt.
BD145 - BD145 seems to bring out the best in Synchromed chrome wheels, adding more weight to an already heavy wheel. While usually used for defense, I've observed BD145's successful use against dominant 230 combos and wanted to go in that direction.
RF - Although I'm a fan of XF, it just doesn't work well with BD145 and RF is a top-tier track that gives me enough control. We're also not worried about Stamina, so RF works just fine for our purposes.

THE TESTS
Spoiler (Click to View)

DISCLAIMER
I've a ways to go yet with regards to launching technique, so while I can sliding shoot or create flower patterns consistently enough, I also often have my bey stall along the tornado ridge, spinning for a while and losing stamina before going back into a flower or spiral pattern. I'm quite certain more advanced players can pull off a more efficient launch and get even better results.

FINDINGS
Spoiler (Click to View)
Jul. 02, 2012  4:02 AM
 

Could you test it against another synchromed combo (Don't know any other good ones)? Unless you are worried about the wheels wearing down.

Jul. 02, 2012  4:03 AM
 
Nice! I can't wait to test this out for my self. Grin
Jul. 02, 2012  4:05 AM
 
(Jul. 02, 2012  4:02 AM)TriSix Wrote: Could you test it against another synchromed combo (Don't know any other good ones)? Unless you are worried about the wheels wearing down.

I'd been meaning to do that. I'll try it against MSF Saramanda Saramanda BD145CS now.
Jul. 02, 2012  4:07 AM
 
Can you test against MSF H Revizer Revizer E230 CS
Jul. 02, 2012  4:08 AM
 
Could you also test Reviser Reviser E230CS?

EDIT, Ninja'd, woh, that was weird, the same combo....
Jul. 02, 2012  4:12 AM
 
(Jul. 02, 2012  4:08 AM)TriSix Wrote: Could you also test Reviser Reviser E230CS?

EDIT, Ninja'd, woh, that was weird, the same combo....

Considering its my combo and should be on the top tier list... Thought it should be tested.
Jul. 02, 2012  4:15 AM
 
Yeah, that's why I posted it.
Jul. 02, 2012  5:18 AM
 
(Jul. 02, 2012  4:12 AM)Dark_Mousy Wrote:
(Jul. 02, 2012  4:08 AM)TriSix Wrote: Could you also test Reviser Reviser E230CS?

EDIT, Ninja'd, woh, that was weird, the same combo....

Considering its my combo and should be on the top tier list... Thought it should be tested.

Saw this too late.

Tested it against Revizer Revizer E230MB, which beat it handily, so there should be no problem since CS is technically a better tip against attacks, anyway. Overall, it seems to do very poorly against defensive combos.
Jul. 02, 2012  7:29 AM
 
Let me start by saying that I love the formatting and sheer amount of detail/data in this thread. This was incredibly well put together, which always makes for a much better read Grin

About the combo, I kind of wish you had posted your MSF-H Pheonic Pheonic TH170XF instead, as that sounds really interesting! Thanks to your awesome descriptions of this combo, though, there is a lot of good information in this thread, and I have some theories as to why it came up short in some tests. It seems like Pheonic Pheonic either needs to be on a rather tall or very short setup so that either the top or bottom Pheonic is the primary contact point rather than on mid-height tracks where Phonic's own contact points get covered. Also, as you noticed in your tests against Duo on low tracks, BD145 also covers any potential contact the bottom Pheonic would get against shorter foes. BD145's weight is certainly helpful, though MSF-H Pheonic Pheonic already weighs about as much as a truck, and I'm worried about it getting in Pheonic's way.

So, you might try things like your TH170XF (or I might suggest WF, as although you mentioned how much you like XF, WF seems to have nice synergy with tall tracks), R145XF (R145 is three sided like Pheonic and weighs a good bit itself), (85/90/100/105)XF (whichever track is as low as you can get without scrapes), or any of those combos with RF/R2F/LRF/MF/CF/GCF.

In closing, I want to say again that this was very well written, and I'd love to see your results with more unorthodox customs if you could try them out Grin
Jul. 02, 2012  7:33 AM
 
I'm not sure using BD145 with Phoenic is the best idea. I get why you used it, but wouldn't many of Phoenic's potential contact points be obscured through the use of BD145? Like Blitz and Flash, Phoenic doesn't seem like a Wheel you would want to use BD145 with; there's no synergy.

Did you try using any lower tracks with it? I played around with MSF Phoenic Phoenic D125RF during BEYBLADE CRUSADE: Roll Call 2 and BEYBLADE CRUSADE 2 and it seemed to be doing well. It was during free-play, so take that however you'd like, but my point is that you need to be mindful of synergy. Unless there is a specific strategy behind using a certain part that normally would not be used with another part (ex. TH170 + Phoenic Phoenic or Flash, or whatever to defeat E230 customs), you should refrain from using it.

Then again, maybe it would help if I asked for you to clarify your strategy/intentions with this combo. Was it simply to create something bulky that can KO 230-height combos? If that's the case, then perhaps this is OK (although, if we're talking E230 combos, TH170 might be better). You talked a lot about recoil (which I think you should refer to as Smash Attack in most instances), which lead me to believe that utilizing that was your top priority ... but then, that created a conflict when I considered your choice of Track.
Jul. 02, 2012  11:30 AM
 
To be honest, the combo was created for two reasons: 1) to allow me to play a Phoenic wheel competitively, and 2) to counter 230 combos, which are dominant in our meta. I hate 230 dominance with a passion and the choice to go with BD145 was more a result of its success against 230 tracks. I'm still inclined to do tests with a TH170 track, as free play and tournament results save for my match against Shogun were highly encouraging. Perhaps that match colored my judgement, and also because I refereed matches where Diablo BD145 outclassed 230s, so I went that way.

Jul. 02, 2012  12:41 PM
 
have u tried R145 with it?
Jul. 02, 2012  12:49 PM
 
(Jul. 02, 2012  11:30 AM)zionson Wrote: To be honest, the combo was created for two reasons: 1) to allow me to play a Phoenic wheel competitively, and 2) to counter 230 combos, which are dominant in our meta. I hate 230 dominance with a passion and the choice to go with BD145 was more a result of its success against 230 tracks. I'm still inclined to do tests with a TH170 track, as free play and tournament results save for my match against Shogun were highly encouraging. Perhaps that match colored my judgement, and also because I refereed matches where Diablo BD145 outclassed 230s, so I went that way.

But what Kei said has a point too. Maybe try using AD145 as it uncovers Phoenic's contact points and it will still be at 145 height.
Jul. 02, 2012  1:44 PM
 
Oh I definitely see Kei's point. I'm probably going to conduct more tests, but I don't have an R145. The caveat with further testing is that my current Phoenic wheels are probably past their prime as the main contact points are hammered. It isn't as bad as a worn Flash, but it isn't as impressive as I hoped it could be. On a good note, this condition will probably be closer to actual Phoenic wheel condition when you use it for competition. I'm getting another pair of Phoenics which I'll reserve for tournaments and use this current synchrom pair for testing.
Jul. 02, 2012  2:35 PM
 
I had this set up with Saramanda Ifraid Bd145Rf and it helped me place for the first time in a tournament! I think you should do comparative testing with that combo, and also Pheonic^2 does great on Ch120 in my recent experience. Also with Ch120 you could change it to 145 against 230 combos!
Jul. 02, 2012  3:24 PM
 
Awesome Combo! I have one Phoenic though, what else could I use for Synchrom?
Jul. 02, 2012  4:31 PM
 
(Jul. 02, 2012  12:41 PM)JesseObre Wrote: have u tried R145 with it?

I've tried it with R145 (given it wasn't Phoenic Phoenic, it was Ifraid Phoenic, nor was I using a MSF or MSF-H, as it wasn't released at the time) and my experience wasn't very pleasant with it. Against Duo it just couldn't score KO's efficiently. Never gave it a try against a standard 230 for God knows why, but against MF-H Duo Aquario E230CS it was manslaughter. BD145 gives Phoenic Phoenic that extra "oomph" it needs to KO things, similar to MF/MF-H LLD BD145RF. You can check my tests in the Phoenic Discussion thread.

Overall, seems like a standard combo, but it still appears to be underperforming than one would expect it to. Also a great read, very well detailed and explained thoroughly. ;D
Jul. 03, 2012  5:58 AM
 
(Jul. 02, 2012  4:31 PM)Raigeko13 Wrote: BD145 gives Phoenic Phoenic that extra "oomph" it needs to KO things, similar to MF/MF-H LLD BD145RF. You can check my tests in the Phoenic Discussion thread.

But you could argue that BD145 also takes away "oomph" through it's partial obstruction of contact points. If your goal is just to create a tank to KO 230 combos (as it seems to be in this case), then perhaps it is fine, but you can't ignore the lack of synergy. It's not at all similar to Lightning L Drago BD145RF. In the case of Lightning L Drago, because it doesn't have any particularly devastating or explosive Smash Attack, it relies more on being able to use what Smash Attack it does have in combination with it's speed on RF to "push" the opponent out; BD145 only helps with this, which means that it has synergy with Lightning L Drago. With Phoenic Phoenic, it does not; it might not be "bad" with it–and perhaps it's great for specific situations–but it can't be "great" by any stretch of the imagination (as is evident by some of these results). Tracks like D125, CH120, AD145, and TH170 generally make much more sense for Phoenic.
Jul. 03, 2012  6:38 AM
 
(Jul. 03, 2012  5:58 AM)Kei Wrote:
(Jul. 02, 2012  4:31 PM)Raigeko13 Wrote: BD145 gives Phoenic Phoenic that extra "oomph" it needs to KO things, similar to MF/MF-H LLD BD145RF. You can check my tests in the Phoenic Discussion thread.

But you could argue that BD145 also takes away "oomph" through it's partial obstruction of contact points. If your goal is just to create a tank to KO 230 combos (as it seems to be in this case), then perhaps it is fine, but you can't ignore the lack of synergy. It's not at all similar to Lightning L Drago BD145RF. In the case of Lightning L Drago, because it doesn't have any particularly devastating or explosive Smash Attack, it relies more on being able to use what Smash Attack it does have in combination with it's speed on RF to "push" the opponent out; BD145 only helps with this, which means that it has synergy with Lightning L Drago. With Phoenic Phoenic, it does not; it might not be "bad" with it–and perhaps it's great for specific situations–but it can't be "great" by any stretch of the imagination (as is evident by some of these results). Tracks like D125, CH120, AD145, and TH170 generally make much more sense for Phoenic.

You're right, and it showed in the match up against the 85 track, which unfortunately was one of the last I tested. However, against taller tracks, the wheel does make contact and the BD145 only acts as weight to increase impact. It isn't totally without synergy, but it does not highlight Phoenic's strengths as much as other tracks can.
Jul. 04, 2012  4:22 AM
 
I would suggest changing your mentions of Recoil to "smash" - recoil is considered a purely negative thing, sending the beyblade with the recoil flying backwards, I think smash is the term you're looking for.

It's an interesting combo, though.

Kei: Sometimes a wheel can use the extra weight for recoil control, but generally what you've said is correct, and once a bey needs BD145, it's a sign that the rest of the setup isn't as effective as those that don't, unless it's using it for pushing (and even then, it's kinda questionable), or unless no attacker without BD145 can survive (which indicates that defense is too powerful, as it was when MF LLD BD145RF became popular).
Jul. 04, 2012  3:29 PM
 
phoenic is my favorite zero g iv always wanted to use it competetively! can't wait for th170 testing!
(i'd make some suggestions but mine were taken)
Jul. 11, 2012  6:35 AM
 
So ... I was conducting tests on TH170.

MSF-H Phoenic Phoenic TH170GCF vs MF-H Flash Orion AD145RF
Spoiler (Click to View)
Jul. 11, 2012  9:57 AM
 
Ouch, at least it died in battle, and not by over-tightening the facebolt or something.. Smile
Jul. 11, 2012  5:05 PM
 
IT DIED A WARRIOR'S DEATH

It'll be dining in Valhalla tonight, the brave soul

Why were you trying TH170GCF, out of curiosity? It's an interesting track/tip combo to say the least.

Also, that's an interesting theory, and while it may or may not be right (I don't know myself) I'll keep it in mind before I test with expensive tracks.
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