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MFB: Standard :: Primer and Random Thoughts Thread

Dec. 12, 2013  1:19 AM
 
(Dec. 12, 2013  1:15 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Yo, F230CF/GCF is not a problem in the Standard Format. What people are talking about is in the Zero-G Stadiums ...

While I agree that F230(CF/GCF) is not a problem in Standard, we very much were talking about its legality in the Standard format (yes, some people mentioned its dominance in Zero-G as well, but that was far from what the entire conversation was about).
Dec. 12, 2013  1:22 AM
 
And even still, after the BB-10 tournament in Michigan, we played Zero-G, I only used F230CF/GCF once or twice, and then used Duo SA165BWD, totally dominated.
Jan. 05, 2014  4:12 PM
 
Something else I'd like to point out is that Libra and Basalt had all kinds of setups(Libra: CH120 RF, MF C145 WB, Basalt: MF-H BD145 CS/TH170 CS/230 CS/BD145 MB/TH170 WF/R145 RF). I'm sure there are others for Libra that I just don't know. Basalt/Libra customs ranged from highly aggressive(RF) to highly defensive(WB and CS) with a few balance types even thrown in, although I would personally argue that nearly every Basalt/Libra combo was balance.

F230, however, has two setups: Genbull Genbull/Duo/Dragooon Synchrom F230 GCF/CF, both being balance types. Duo/Genbull Genbull combos have loads of weaknesses, two being they lose to good attack types and have trouble with heavier stamina types(especially Duo F230).

So, in my opinion, F230 should be banned in BB-10 standard only when we see the likes of Wyvang Wyvang F230 RF and Revizer Revizer F230 RB running around.

Just my two cents.
Jan. 05, 2014  11:33 PM
 
Shinobu XD Wrote:So, in my opinion, F230 should be banned in BB-10 standard only when we see the likes of Wyvang Wyvang F230 RF and Revizer Revizer F230 RB running around.
Why? Are those combos good? Because I tried that Revizer combo with CS and I was so bad against attack. And I have zero skill with attack. I can't even get Girago Wyvang S130/BD145RF to KO Duo W145WD.
Jan. 13, 2014  2:20 AM
 
Let me say something here...

F230 does not become dominant in meta games where Attack is used heavily. It could definitely still be used to extreme effect, but is definitely possible to counter with a competitive Attack type... IF the user is not launching stationary. It the user launches F230 so that its movement pattern in relatively concentrated ( which can be done by launching it at a steep angle or launching low the ground slightly weaker than usual), then KOing it is much more difficult. It is definitely possible, though.

Also, if one is using F230, there are only select Attack types that work well against it. MSF-M Bahamdia Dragooon BD145LRF is very effective, but Flash, for instance, is much harder to achieve a win with. Wyvsng is usually decent, but far from the most effective. Balro is pretty darn good.

Again, a straight stall is the worst thing you could do against an attack type with F230. Banking, launching stationary or using techniques that keep you out of the line of fire work much more effectively. If the F230 user mixes up these techniques and switches up his launch, it can become frustratingly difficult to take it down, especially as using Attack in tournaments is much more difficult than testing and a risk that most people aren't willing to take.

Overall, I wouldn't say that F230 is utterly broken in Standard format (as you can also beat it with same-spin B : D, which is a very nice option to have), but it is definitely unhealthy for the meta if you ask me. F230 in Standard is one of those things that should be watched closely, and used sparingly, as it can do significant damage to any given meta game if it is abused. I think tournaments without F230 are altogether far more skill-oriented and enjoyable than tournaments with bladers using it.

Zero-G is a completely different story, though. There it's sickeningly overpowered and an utter abomination to the game itself. I would give everything I had to see F230CF/GCF outright banned inZero-G. XD
Jan. 14, 2014  1:49 AM
 
Hey guys, sorry if this is a dumb question but how come the Zero-G Attack Stadium is not one of the MFB Standard stadiums?

With ZG stadiums being a big step in the evolution of the Beyblade metagame (i.e building combos for creating or resisting Zero G Sway attack), I would have thought that the ZG Attack stadium would have joined BB-10 in the stadiums considered legal for MFB: Standard?
Jan. 14, 2014  2:50 AM
 
(Jan. 14, 2014  1:49 AM)Phoenix of Fire Wrote: Hey guys, sorry if this is a dumb question but how come the Zero-G Attack Stadium is not one of the MFB Standard stadiums?

With ZG stadiums being a big step in the evolution of the Beyblade metagame (i.e building combos for creating or resisting Zero G Sway attack), I would have thought that the ZG Attack stadium would have joined BB-10 in the stadiums considered legal for MFB: Standard?

You know Standard is the term for BB-10 play, right?

Zero-G Format is the term for play in a Zero-G Stadium.

Both Stadiums are legal in their respective formats.
Jan. 14, 2014  3:38 AM
 
(Jan. 14, 2014  2:50 AM)Leone19 Wrote:
(Jan. 14, 2014  1:49 AM)Phoenix of Fire Wrote: Hey guys, sorry if this is a dumb question but how come the Zero-G Attack Stadium is not one of the MFB Standard stadiums?

With ZG stadiums being a big step in the evolution of the Beyblade metagame (i.e building combos for creating or resisting Zero G Sway attack), I would have thought that the ZG Attack stadium would have joined BB-10 in the stadiums considered legal for MFB: Standard?

You know Standard is the term for BB-10 play, right?

Zero-G Format is the term for play in a Zero-G Stadium.

Both Stadiums are legal in their respective formats.

Ah I didn't know that. Thanks for clearing that up
Mar. 24, 2014  2:15 AM
 
So, I was trying out different E230 destabilizers now that I have both Girago and Genull. Both are pretty good I must say. I've tried nearly everything I think and I found that Pegasis is very good as well as the bottoms chrome wheel!

It's grinding ability is defintely great. I've gotten better results so far with Pegasis than I have Genbull and Girago. It defintely needs more looking into! I see a lot of potential with it. I've been using Genbull as the top chrome wheels primarily. I wonder if another Pegasis would help on the top? Maybe I can get another sometime soon.
Mar. 24, 2014  4:26 AM
 
It's weight distribution probably would not help if it's on the top but I'd love to see some tests. Like Pegasus Girago E230 MB/BSF.
Mar. 24, 2014  4:31 AM
 
Pegasus has to much recoil to be on bottom, SA165 attackers would make short work of it.
Mar. 24, 2014  5:12 AM
 
Pegasus doesn't have as much recoil as many wheels in the game, mainly because its contact points are rounded out, such as wheels like Galaxy and Big Bang. That's why Pegasus isn't used in many attackers in standard because its attack capability isn't very high because of its contact points.

On the top though, it's quite jagged, like Girago and Genbull, making it great for E230 destabilizers. Do you actually have a Pegasis chrome wheel to make your assumption about its recoil anyways?

@Aquamarine, Pegasis with anything won't have good weight distribution. It's not a wry balanced wheel like Girago or Genbull but it still has great grinding ability.
Mar. 24, 2014  5:24 AM
 
LOL you don't have to own a part to know how it performs. Why would you use Pegasis on top when Genbull has more stamina? The main contact will be made threw E230 and the bottom wheel. Girago has pretty great synergy with Girago/Genbull. Are you willing to do a benchmark between Pegasus Pegasus E230MB and Girago Genbull E230MB?

EDIT: just saw where you said you only had 1 Pegasus.
Mar. 24, 2014  7:01 AM
 
(Mar. 24, 2014  5:24 AM)DRAGON KING Wrote: LOL you don't have to own a part to know how it performs.

The last person I heard say this was Ultra.


Don't go down that path.
Mar. 24, 2014  7:07 AM
 
(Mar. 24, 2014  7:01 AM)th!nk Wrote:
(Mar. 24, 2014  5:24 AM)DRAGON KING Wrote: LOL you don't have to own a part to know how it performs.

The last person I heard say this was Ultra.


Don't go down that path.
.... what is that supposed to mean? I thought it was fine to assume from testing by other users?

If not, what is the point of testing?


Quote:Pegasis: Pegasis is the crux of this combination. One reason I used it is because it has never been tested before. The second being the fact that it can produce unbelievably high levels of smash, even out-doing Wyvang occasionally.

The only disadvantage of using Pegasis, is the fact that it has very high recoil when hit from below, and as such, combos such as MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF with a low-protruding Metal Wheel will have little trouble KOing consistently. However, it's massive levels of smash more than makePegasis: Pegasis is the crux of this combination. One reason I used it is because it has never been tested before. The second being the fact that it can produce unbelievably high levels of smash, even out-doing Wyvang occasionally.


From my experience with E230, it can leave a large enough gaps between the disk and wheel for an MW to make contact will Pegasis' underside.

That quote was from TheBlackDragon btw.


(Mar. 24, 2014  5:12 AM)Tri Wrote: Pegasus doesn't have as much recoil as many wheels in the game, mainly because its contact points are rounded out, such as wheels like Galaxy and Big Bang. That's why Pegasus isn't used in many attackers in standard because its attack capability isn't very high because of its contact points.

On the top though, it's quite jagged, like Girago and Genbull, making it great for E230 destabilizers. Do you actually have a Pegasis chrome wheel to make your assumption about its recoil anyways?

@Aquamarine, Pegasis with anything won't have good weight distribution. It's not a wry balanced wheel like Girago or Genbull but it still has great grinding ability.

Have a look at this:

Quote:Pegasis Pegasis R145RF vs. Revizer Revizer BD145RDF
Revizer launched first on all launches. New RF, slightly worn RDF.
Pegasis: wins, 13/20 (All KO)
Revizer: wins, 7/20 (All OS)
Pegasis Pegasis R145RF win rate: 65%


Quote:Pegasis Pegasis R145RF vs. Revizer Revizer BD145RDF
Revizer launched first on all launches. Barely out of its prime RF, slightly worn RDF.
Pegasis: wins, 7/10 (All KO)
Revizer: wins, 3/10 (Al OS)
Pegasis Pegasis R145RF win rate: 70%


Quote:Pegasis Pegasis CH120R2F vs. Revizer Revizer BD145RDF
Revizer launched first on all launches. Prime R2F, slightly worn RDF.
Pegasis: wins, 6/10 (All KO)
Revizer: wins, 4/10 (All OS)
Pegasis Pegasis CH120R2F win rate: 60%


Tests from TBD's Pegasis Pegasis R145RF thread.

Quote:Pegasis Pegasis CH120R2F vs. Revizer Revizer BD145RDF
Revizer was always launched first 
Pegasis: wins, 11/20 (10 KO)
Revizer: wins, 9/20 (All OS)
Pegasis Pegasis CH120R2F win rate: 55%

Test from LimiTTrickstar from the same thread.


My question still remains, why would you want to use Pegasus on top when Genbull is specifically added to produce more stamina & balance?


Off-topic: looking out how the tests were inconsistent with some others users tests, it might indicate a mold difference we have yet to see. Who knows It is a mystery
Mar. 24, 2014  8:19 AM
 
I misinterpreted your statement as along the lines of the "I can tell from how it looks" antics that Ultra got up to shortly before his ban, my bad. But that said, level of scepticism you're expressing towards Tri is inappropriate for the situation - he's got a good history of reliable tests and I'm sure if something weird is happening he'll look into it himself. Jumping on good users when they post about something interesting they've observed - in a random thoughts thread, in particular - does no one any good. More respectful would be a question along the lines of "doesn't pegasis have recoil what does it add" and an encouragement to post tests or the like - and even that is probably best left to one of the many active users who actually owns the part, in case you're overlooking something like, say, contact points facing the other way when a chrome wheel is upside down resulting in very different performance.
Mar. 24, 2014  1:06 PM
 
Just to say, that quote from me isn't a very reliable source. The testing in that thread was effected by something (still don't know what) unusual, as shown by Cannon's and Ingulit's testing, that was causing Pegasis to work particularly aggressively for some reason. That said, the custom was so ridiculously vulnerable to Diablo that I'm still inclined to believe sticking it on a high Track is asking for trouble.

But, again, any opinion I give on the wheel is likely flawed.
Mar. 24, 2014  2:27 PM
 
DRAGON KING Wrote:My question still remains, why would you want to use Pegasus on top when Genbull is specifically added to produce more stamina & balance?

Genbull has terrible synergy with Pegasus, as do most chrome wheels with it really. Genbull is more of a 4 sided wheel (some would argue 6, but I'm not counting the sides where the turtle head and the hole are) and Pegasis primarily has 3. Even though Genbull is a highly stamina based chrome wheel, it won't add much stamina to Pegsis if it has a terrible shape with it. The results I've gotten have been impressive with it though.

So now do you understand why I'd use another Pegasis? It's all about the balance of the bey.

And yes you must own a part to know how it performs. You were going off Beywiki, and not your personal use. I'm not saying Beywiki is unreliable and you can't trust it, but you might find your use of the part far different than what Beywiki states. I still do not believe its a very recoil prone wheel. Ive tried it in many attack customs as well and even without MSF or MSF-H, it didn't have any self KOing problems.
Mar. 24, 2014  4:14 PM
 
(Mar. 24, 2014  8:19 AM)th!nk Wrote: I misinterpreted your statement as along the lines of the "I can tell from how it looks" antics that Ultra got up to shortly before his ban, my bad. But that said, level of scepticism you're expressing towards Tri is inappropriate for the situation - he's got a good history of reliable tests and I'm sure if something weird is happening he'll look into it himself. Jumping on good users when they post about something interesting they've observed - in a random thoughts thread, in particular - does no one any good. More respectful would be a question along the lines of "doesn't pegasis have recoil what does it add" and an encouragement to post tests or the like - and even that is probably best left to one of the many active users who actually owns the part, in case you're overlooking something like, say, contact points facing the other way when a chrome wheel is upside down resulting in very different performance.
?

I didn't think I was jumping on him, it felt like he was jumping on me more than anything IMO.

I'm sorry if my post replying to yours was rude, but just coming and comparing me to a banned member before fully reading my post was inappropriate IMO.
(Mar. 24, 2014  1:06 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Just to say, that quote from me isn't a very reliable source. The testing in that thread was effected by something (still don't know what) unusual, as shown by Cannon's and Ingulit's testing, that was causing Pegasis to work particularly aggressively for some reason. That said, the custom was so ridiculously vulnerable to Diablo that I'm still inclined to believe sticking it on a high Track is asking for trouble.

But, again, any opinion I give on the wheel is likely flawed.

Exactly.


It's really odd how another member got the same results as you too. That's why I suggested possible mold differences.

(Mar. 24, 2014  2:27 PM)Tri Wrote:
DRAGON KING Wrote:My question still remains, why would you want to use Pegasus on top when Genbull is specifically added to produce more stamina & balance?

Genbull has terrible synergy with Pegasus, as do most chrome wheels with it really. Genbull is more of a 4 sided wheel (some would argue 6, but I'm not counting the sides where the turtle head and the hole are) and Pegasis primarily has 3. Even though Genbull is a highly stamina based chrome wheel, it won't add much stamina to Pegsis if it has a terrible shape with it. The results I've gotten have been impressive with it though.

So now do you understand why I'd use another Pegasis? It's all about the balance of the bey.

And yes you must own a part to know how it performs. You were going off Beywiki, and not your personal use. I'm not saying Beywiki is unreliable and you can't trust it, but you might find your use of the part far different than what Beywiki states. I still do not believe its a very recoil prone wheel. Ive tried it in many attack customs as well and even without MSF or MSF-H, it didn't have any self KOing problems.
I misinterpreted your original post, I thought you meant Girago/Pegasus Pegasus E230MB. In which Genbull a would do much better with Girago . Actually, I was basing it off testing. Which is there to show you how a parts performs, no?

EDITS: in your previous post you said you'd been using Genbull on top and it performed well...
Mar. 24, 2014  4:16 PM
 
You can know how it works, but he's saying how can you know if you haven’t tested it yourself.
I have one Pegasus, I'll do some testing if you guys tell me the combos you want to test against.
Mar. 24, 2014  4:24 PM
 
(Mar. 24, 2014  2:15 AM)Tri Wrote: So, I was trying out different E230 destabilizers now that I have both Girago and Genull. Both are pretty good I must say. I've tried nearly everything I think and I found that Pegasis is very good as well as the bottoms chrome wheel!

It's grinding ability is defintely great. I've gotten better results so far with Pegasis than I have Genbull and Girago. It defintely needs more looking into! I see a lot of potential with it. I've been using Genbull as the top chrome wheels primarily. I wonder if another Pegasis would help on the top? Maybe I can get another sometime soon.

DrPepsidew: I guess Pegasus Genbull E230MB?

Please do a benchmark between that and Girago Genbull E230MB when you can Smile
Mar. 24, 2014  4:35 PM
 
Yes I used Genbull on top and it did perform well, I only advised possibly using Pegasus to balance the custom out more.

Saying there is a mold difference just based on different results is silly. It's probably just based more on the person using the combo.

BTW, don't comment on something you're not familiar with. If you don't own the part, you can't make assumptions. This isn't directed directly at you DRAGON KING, but anyone who reads it.
Mar. 24, 2014  5:12 PM
 
Quote:Saying there is a mold difference just based on different results is silly. It's probably just based more on the person using the combo.

?

I didn't say there were mold differences. I said that it was something to look in to for possible mold differences.


I suggested it was possible because a lot of the advanced testers get similar results when the launch, condition of parts are the same, setup etc. but I just find it odd they got such different results.
Mar. 24, 2014  5:35 PM
 
I can do the benchmarks based off of both Girago Genbull and Genbull Genbull, as TBD and I both have testing threads up.
Mar. 24, 2014  5:53 PM
 
(Mar. 24, 2014  5:35 PM)DrPepsidew Wrote: I can do the benchmarks based off of both Girago Genbull and Genbull Genbull, as TBD and I both have testing threads up.

Thanks! Excited to see the results =D

Can you use MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang SA165LRF?
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