OOOOPS Accidental Double Post. Guess it's good enough to not bother the staff about merging it or deleting this but yeah, my bad.
Some more specific responses to your post, TBD:
(Mar. 05, 2014 8:37 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Another big reason is, with Bahamdia's thin shape, making contact with everything you can manage is important, and the way the Chrome Wheels contact points are oriented (notably the fact that Bahamdia has zero smash anywhere on its underside), BD145 generally gives you a more universally applicable height. When you take stability, range, recoil, points of contact and other variables into the equation, having an Attack type that's exceptionally tall compared to a lot of the meta isn't exactly optimal for the most part.
The meta is almost entirely 145 and up, which Bahamdia on SA165 hits just fine, and BD145 isn't going to help tooooo much against stuff below that anyway tbh. If you're against something lower you could probably just bank harder and hit them anyway given Bahamdia's massive girth.
Quote:Another reason, is that one of the things that makes Bahamdia Dragooon BD145 so versatile, is its prowess in Attack vs. Attack matchups, which SA165 doesn't have. At that height, 145 Wyvang Attack types can take you down easily, which is untrue for BD145 (actually been in that matchup in competition a couple times, and having a custom that doubles as a consistent anti-attacker is a really great thing to have).
Valid point though I'm surprised Bahamdia actually works that well in the first place, would expect something like Wyvang to work better in general given extra weight and more compact design though I guess BD145 would help with the former. Still not enough to keep something that effective off the list though.
Quote:Lastly, though this isn't as significant, and results could vary from person to person, but I find the BD145 variant considerably more effective against Dragooon F230, which is one of this custom's primary functions (SA165 can still take it out most of the time, which is the reason I don't consider it a big drawback, but consistency is never a bad thing to have).
IDK when I'm choosing an attack type I care more about how they handle defense than a combo which like every attack combo handles with ease for me no matter how it's launched - Flash SA165 and any given Bahamdia Dragooon combo have no trouble with it, doubt right spin Bahamdia is going to be too fussed by it either but I don't want to snap my F230 trying it out.
Quote:Oh yah, BTW (and I really don't wanna sound like I don't believe you here, because I do), the BD145 variant actually OSes E230RSF a lot more reliably than the SA165 variant does for me. Don't know why (actually, I'm still testing with MSF-M and R2F, so if you're using MSF-L/RF that might be effecting something).
MSF-L and RF probably has a lot to do with it, part of why I listed them specifically, but I don't outspin MSF-H Genbull Genbull E230RSF with them on BD145 so idk. Keep in mind I'm using Zero-G Attack mode, too, just in case.
Quote:Again, I'm not saying SA165 is bad (on the contrary, it works pretty darn well against a lot of thing - perhaps arguably top-tier worthy), but I don't really see any great reason to list it given BD145 works better for me (I wouldn't necessarily be strongly opposed to adding it, but you know, if BD145 is truly better, what's the point? LOL).
BD145 isn't better against E230, even without the whole SA165 outspinning some E230 customs thing. I know you personally don't face many E230 combos, but it's the best Defense track there is tbh, so I consider things being more effective against it quite important.
Quote:On Genbull Genbull for Defense... eeeehhh, Genbull Genbull E230CS seems more like Balance to me to be honest. Genbull is definitely not "good" as the bottom Chrome Wheel on an E230 Defense custom if you're actually looking to avoid KO from my experience. It also really isn't all that hard to hit either.
Are you harsh banking your defense combo or not using E230 in "boost" mode or whatever? Because a) it really isn't easy to hit over especially at the start of the battle and b) there's still that gap in boost mode with Revizer which has slopes and gaps on the bottom of it that Flash SA165 for example does hit - with deadly repercussions for the Revizer combo. Genbull is much less prone to this, as it slopes inwards and doesn't have all that much to hit there. Unless you're hitting Revizer side on while it's on E230 which seems kinda unlikely to me, I honestly think Genbull is outright superior.
Quote:IDK... my brain isn't working particularly well right now, but all I know is that I wouldn't use Genbull Genbull on an E230 Defense custom if I had other options. Too much recoil for me (the extra Stamina is great, but it's a Defense custom after all - at this point it would come down to whether you want to base what's listed in the Defense section on what's better at Defense, or just better in general, assuming Genbull^2 handles more stuff, which I can't comment on since I've never tried it against anything other than Attack).
I'm not certain about genbull genull outspinning Revizer Killerken with both on E230 - been getting weird results today, but I don't really have two suitable tips and launchers to test it properly. Still as I said I actually find it much harder to handle Genbull than Revizer as the bottom chrome wheel for E230 defense, for whatever reason.
Also keep in mind we still have Duo up there on defense and Duo is a helluva lot easier to deal with than Genbull Genbull E230 lol.
Quote:Sorry if any of that sounded unclear. I don't actually feel so good right now. I think I need something to eat...
I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets so focussed on a long post that they forget to eat and only notice when their brain starts having trouble putting words together.
Probably not good for either of us though.
Quote:[This is about TB] ...(that thing really does have incredible Stamina compared to most Bottoms, especially on higher Tracks; certainly far and away better than it is in LTD. I actually haven't found anything that can out-spin it in a mirror match on Duo 230 (we are talking about Genbull here, but the fact stands that TB can exhibit unbelievable Stamina (it usually benefits Genbull more than Duo IIRC, actually (and even if CS does do better overall, which is arguably inapplicable given they behave differently (TB is more of a pure Stamina Bottom, whereas CS is slightly aggressive and doesn't provide as much pure endurance), that doesn't necessarily make TB an uncompetitive option (gosh I'm using a lot of parentheses))))).
I wish I had two Duo's, but from experience, are you using a Mint D (I know you like SD but I'm more familiar with the former and it might be worth checking in case SD sucks vs TB or something)? Also, you should try it vs 145-height DEFENSE, probably RSF or CS, shoot aggressively, see if it knocks it over - remember I get better results with WD, which TB tilts even wider than, but similar things are why I haven't made too strong an argument for adding it haha.
Sounds like you'd support moving {MSF{-H}} genbull genbull TH170/SR200CS (not TB) to balance, so I'll probs propose that if I haven't already. And probably moving Duo 230MB back to stamina because as the metagame has shifted it really belongs there.
Quote:Support the removal of Genbull Genbull from E230 Defense (It just has higher recoil than I'd like a Defense custom to have; yes, it can take hits decently, but nowhere near as well against the most prevalent heights as Revizer or Killerken can, so, if anything, I'd just add CS as an option besides MB on Genbull/Girago Genbull E230MB if you really wanted a defensive-ish Genbull ^2 E230 custom in there)
I still don't get how you're getting so much contact, maybe I bank my attack combos a little hard or something but even then, I've played around with things like Orojya Bahamdia SA165RF specifically to land hits and Genbull still did fine, and as I mentioned it generally seems better than revizer to me on E230 because things get in the gap with Revizer and it has those slopes right at the edge that have quite a bit of recoil.
We need to try more tips on these sorts of E230 customs, but FWIW I think most of the defense tips other than CS have use on Genbull Genbull E230 to a degree.
Quote:I'd also like to note that, while you mentioned Revizer not having the lowest-recoil underside, that Revizer's edges are much thicker and straighter than Genbull's, which means its underside is much, much, much more difficult to make contact with (actually, the problem with Genbull may not be so much the recoil from its underside as it is the fact that the underside is so exposed).
On E230? Revizer's underside is lower but there's still a noticeable gap for most things to get into, so it's much easier for common heights to hit. Are you maybe using Wyvang? I could see fitting in there being an issue for it compared to Flash and Bahamdia, which are what I've been using. In flash's case, with the amount of leverage its wings give it, it isn't too bad at hitting flat faces hard, to the point I imagine slopes are harder for it, which could also explain the results. Both of these things give Genbull enough use to be up there anyway.
Quote:Support the addition of CS to Genbull Genbull TH170 customs (Adding MSF(-H) could use some looking into, but seeing as that's a very major change as opposed to adding CS to a custom that already uses it on a very similar Track, it'd take some investigation)
As mentioned, I think my explanation as to why it works is p solid on this one when combined with similar combinations benefiting from it as well. Will see what others think, seeing as I'm obviously biased with regards to thinking it deserves to be there.
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but enough that I don't think it deserves to go so easily. I was talking about Bahamdia Dragooon SA165, not a right spin one (while Orojya Bahamdia is p sweet, Bahamdia Dragooon is more practical haha). No, I don't have two balros or two wyvang's, and my remark about Wyvang Wyvang was just a response to the argument you used, not the contents thereof, as it's a pet peeve of mine.
should be top tier, not just for Duo, but for Dragooon Stamina as well. Yes, people have always used its bad defense against it, but the next-best option, SA165EWD, doesn't take hits too well either. IMO the weight of the Synchrom + Left Spin offsets the bad defense to an extent, making it a viable choice, and people will continue to use it regardless of whether it gets put on the list or not.
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Well, thank goodness for the rewards campaign. 
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