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MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion

Jun. 15, 2013  2:29 AM
 
My personal opinion on death is it shouldn't be on the tier list. Yes it has use for anti spin steal. But there is more to the meta then just spin stealers. As its been stated already, death has decent stamina. But its highly outclassed by Phantom, Duo, & Genbull. I could potentially see it being on the Zero G list Maybe. There are just other things that belong on the list other then Death.
Jun. 15, 2013  2:54 AM
 
Uh...ok well I finally understand what Ultra is saying, sorta.

At first I was confused with what you mentioned, so I did these tests thinking you mean't Stamina as in, "Right vs Right which one lasts longer". I don't have 2 SA165s so I used dual 160s.

Conditions:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Duo Aquario 160WD vs Death Aquario 160WD
Duo: 10/10 (All OS)
Death 0/10 (N/A)

Death Win Rate: 0%

I'm assuming all Ultra was trying to say, is that we should stop using the term "Spin Equalizer" to mean strictly Left Spin Beyblades, since both directions equalize spin. In essence, Death SA165WD (Designed to outspin High LAD Left Spin Beyblades) should be classified as a Stamina type rather than an Anti-Spin Equalizer. Yes Death SA165WD is not a good conventional Stamina type and is considered outclassed by Duo and Phantom, but it is a Spin Equalization Stamina type. What I got out of Ultra's statements, after carefully examining them, was that he was questioning our naming system rather than the already-established part's abilities.

I do agree with that since he is right. Before Dragooon, there were pretty much 2 questionable tournament worthy Left Spin Stamina types and so people called them "Spin Equalizers" out of naming simplicity. Now that the meta is so heavily focused on Left Spin Stamina types, people started naming Right Spin Beyblades that outspun these Left-Spin Stamina Types, "Anti Spin-Equalizer" which isn't really an accurate name.

Ultra, if this is not what you mean't, then....well I just typed this for nothing lmfao.

Edit:
Why don't we have dual categories under the Stamina type heading. One that represents conventional Stamina types and the other that represents Stamina types that rely on Spin-Equalization to win.
Jun. 15, 2013  2:58 AM
 
Even if that is what he meant to say (which I'm really not seeing but hey this reply needs to be made anyway), distinctions still need to be made, because those combinations are not competitive vs other right spin stamina combinations (see your own tests for proof). They work to a competitive level in situations where spin is being exchanged, and thus are spin stealers primarily. Dragooon combos likewise do not have particularly good stamina on their own, only when stealing spin - spin stealers.
Jun. 15, 2013  3:01 AM
 
(Jun. 15, 2013  2:54 AM)Meow! Wrote: Why don't we have dual categories under the Stamina type heading. One that represents conventional Stamina types and the other that represents Stamina types that rely on Spin-Equalization to win.

Wouldn't we just label that "Spin Stealers"
Jun. 15, 2013  3:04 AM
 
Yeah spin stealers would just be a subtype of stamina - if they aren't already I must've missed that in the last update lol.

By the way, during equalisation of RPM one top gains rotational energy while the other loses it - rotational energy is transferred between the two tops (and some is lost as other forms of energy, of course). So we can keep calling it spin stealing, rather than breaking tradition there.
Jun. 15, 2013  3:08 AM
 
I can see the argument being made for Death not being on the list 100%, especially the bit that not EVERYTHING in the meta right now is straight-up Dragooon + EWD. If everything and their grandma spun left (which we're getting close to lol) Death might have its place.

To go back to something Time mentioned, I've never gotten the same results with Duo as I have with Death against spin stealers; Duo will usually tie at best while Death can often pull at least a half-rotation (if not more obv)
Jun. 15, 2013  3:13 AM
 
You might want to try an MF-M on Duo. Sometimes the stability it adds outweighs the stamina/spin steal efficiency loss as seen on various combos (Duo 230MB), and this works to some degree on spin-stealers/opposite spin matchups in general too in my experience.

Personally, as long as Death Spin Stealers can OS Defense I'd be perfectly happy with them being in a spin stealer subcategory of stamina overall - while there are other ways to handle spin stealers - specifically Attack types, in more defensive areas a right spin spin-stealer that also has good stamina could be a better choice.
Jun. 15, 2013  3:13 AM
 
(Jun. 15, 2013  3:08 AM)Ingulit Wrote: I can see the argument being made for Death not being on the list 100%, especially the bit that not EVERYTHING in the meta right now is straight-up Dragooon + EWD. If everything and their grandma spun left (which we're getting close to lol) Death might have its place.

To go back to something Time mentioned, I've never gotten the same results with Duo as I have with Death against spin stealers; Duo will usually tie at best while Death can often pull at least a half-rotation (if not more obv)

I had similar results with Death/Duo. Duo can OS Spin Stealers if it has something like EWD on it.
Jun. 15, 2013  3:32 AM
 
(Jun. 15, 2013  2:54 AM)Meow! Wrote: Uh...ok well I finally understand what Ultra is saying, sorta.

At first I was confused with what you mentioned, so I did these tests thinking you mean't Stamina as in, "Right vs Right which one lasts longer". I don't have 2 SA165s so I used dual 160s.

Conditions:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Duo Aquario 160WD vs Death Aquario 160WD
Duo: 10/10 (All OS)
Death 0/10 (N/A)

Death Win Rate: 0%

I'm assuming all Ultra was trying to say, is that we should stop using the term "Spin Equalizer" to mean strictly Left Spin Beyblades, since both directions equalize spin. In essence, Death SA165WD (Designed to outspin High LAD Left Spin Beyblades) should be classified as a Stamina type rather than an Anti-Spin Equalizer. Yes Death SA165WD is not a good conventional Stamina type and is considered outclassed by Duo and Phantom, but it is a Spin Equalization Stamina type. What I got out of Ultra's statements, after carefully examining them, was that he was questioning our naming system rather than the already-established part's abilities.

I do agree with that since he is right. Before Dragooon, there were pretty much 2 questionable tournament worthy Left Spin Stamina types and so people called them "Spin Equalizers" out of naming simplicity. Now that the meta is so heavily focused on Left Spin Stamina types, people started naming Right Spin Beyblades that outspun these Left-Spin Stamina Types, "Anti Spin-Equalizer" which isn't really an accurate name.

Ultra, if this is not what you mean't, then....well I just typed this for nothing lmfao.

Edit:
Why don't we have dual categories under the Stamina type heading. One that represents conventional Stamina types and the other that represents Stamina types that rely on Spin-Equalization to win.

Not to nitpick, but like Ultra said Death is typically much stronger on tracks shorter than 160, from personal experience I know death does incredibly well on AD145, I would put up some tests myself, but its late here in the time household and I don't want to wake anyone else up. So, Meow! perhaps if you have two AD145s you wouldn't mind doing death v. duo on those to see if my understanding of ultra's point has any validity?

edit: to comment on what th!nk said about wondering whether death can outspin other defense types, the answer is yes, as shown by tons of testing in the death thread (albeit these tests are not against current top-tier)
Jun. 15, 2013  3:36 AM
 
I just had a thought...

If we are ruling out anti-spin steal (sorry for using that term Meow! Tongue_out) for the top-tier list just because it can only beat spin-stealers/left-spin combos, then shouldn't things like defense be removed, since defense can only beat attack? I think, though right-spin is definitely the mainstream method in the metagame right now, we are leaning toward using left-spin combos more and more... I think anti spin-steal should have its own category, at least when left-spin catches on more, if not now. Just my opinion, though. Smile

On the subject of death for conventional stamina types, I really think it has outstanding stamina. Not enough to ouclass Duo or Phantom, obviously, but definitely enough to out-spin most things. However, since it is outclassed by Duo and Phantom, I don't think it should be on the tier list...
Jun. 15, 2013  3:40 AM
 
I'm with theblackdragon on this even if anti-spin steal and spin-steal are lumped into one category with a label on some of the non-top tier traditional stamina types of something like: (for use against beys of opposite spin direction only). However, death on ewd and a few other tips can successfully beat defense types which is the primary goal of stamina types anyways, so...
Jun. 15, 2013  3:40 AM
 
I agree with blackdragon, dragooon is a big part of the meta game nowadays, and it doesnt have to have its own spot, but it definitely needs to be added.
Jun. 15, 2013  3:47 AM
 
didnt saw this till now...
Spoiler (Click to View)
i like the format a lot. though to me the light blue text is a little hard to read. anyways, i like the idea of having more than 3 choices for each type. i think having more choices is good. I think a blader should have a few different beys to choose from. i also think there should be a win rate next to each bey, that way everyone could know what is good, what is better and what is best. just to avoid confusion.
Jun. 15, 2013  3:51 AM
 
(Jun. 15, 2013  3:36 AM)theblackdragon Wrote: If we are ruling out anti-spin steal (sorry for using that term Meow! Tongue_out) for the top-tier list just because it can only beat spin-stealers/left-spin combos, then shouldn't things like defense be removed, since defense can only beat attack?

Strawwww Mannnn


We've had this discussion before and IIRC it was decided that we wanted to avoid having a ton of subcategories when the standard four would suffice. While I originally didn't agree, now that we have extremely complex notions of "spin stealer" beyond "does it spin left? Then it's a spin stealer", breaking things up further would cause more damage than good IMO.

If we did ANY breaking up of categories, I'd say specifying spin direction (Left-Spin Defense, Left-Spin Stamina, etc) would be reasonable, but mostly unnecessary since customs are obviously left- or right-spin based on their parts.


EDIT:
Infinity Wrote:i like the format a lot. though to me the light blue text is a little hard to read. anyways, i like the idea of having more than 3 choices for each type. i think having more choices is good. I think a blader should have a few different beys to choose from. i also think there should be a win rate next to each bey, that way everyone could know what is good, what is better and what is best. just to avoid confusion.
I understand about the light blue text, thank you for letting me know Grin

Having win rates is hard since we test against sooooo mannnnny combos for each given custom, and it'd be hard to give a single win rate with things like stamina losing 100%-ish of the time to attack, etc
Jun. 15, 2013  3:58 AM
 
Oh, I didn't know anyone had talked about this before...

IMO, the stamina category should have 3 groups.

there should be one for regular old stamina types, one for spin-stealers (left-spin only), and anti-spin steal. If that's too complicated for some people I understand. Regardless, Whether they have their own category or not, I think Death combos with high LAD should have a place on the tier list at some point. Then again, I one out of the 80,000+ members on the WBO, so my opinion really carries no weight if the advanced members don't agree. Smile
Jun. 15, 2013  4:03 AM
 
Even though I was the one who originally brought it up I can see why anti-spin stealers do not have a place on the bb-10 top tier list since spin-stealers are far more common in zero-g than bb-10 (I'm guessing 1/2 people use them for zero-g and maybe 1/5 for mfb)
Jun. 15, 2013  4:05 AM
 
I've already thoroughly addressed that - anti spin-stealers are just spin stealers. They'll steal spin from anything left spin, not just spin stealers. If you can make something more efficient in left spin, they'll lose to it - they don't really have any magic powers that make them beat other spin stealers.

Oh and Ingulit - some things just work by stealing spin, not by having great stamina themselves - we probably do need a (sub)-section for them, though that does mean having the RDF ones under balance, separately still because they do more than just that.
Jun. 15, 2013  4:11 AM
 
Let's be honest, at this point, aren't people calling pretty much anything left-spin a spin-stealer?
Jun. 15, 2013  4:17 AM
 
(Jun. 15, 2013  4:11 AM)Time Wrote: Let's be honest, at this point, aren't people calling pretty much anything left-spin a spin-stealer?

That's actually the problem lol

So many things can be left-spin now thanks to Dragooon that spin-stealer really needs to be a broader term (if a term at all). Stuff like MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD is only really good against right-spin, and stuff like Death combos are only better than Phantom and Duo against left-spin.

If we did ever break the list up into more categories, then spin-stealer would be the main one to focus on (anti-attack being a close second IMO). Very importantly, such a spin-stealer category would contain BOTH left- and right-spin; basically it'd be Beyblades that are designed to be used against opposite spin.
Jun. 15, 2013  4:23 AM
 
Spin Stealer: Wins primarily by stealing spin off the opponent and using it better/having better LAD or endgame survival ability to outspin opponents.

If it does other things it's balance.

There.
Jun. 15, 2013  4:24 AM
 
I like that idea. Smile I second the motion.
Jun. 15, 2013  4:32 AM
 
(Jun. 15, 2013  4:23 AM)th!nk Wrote: Spin Stealer: Wins primarily by stealing spin off the opponent and using it better/having better LAD or endgame survival ability to outspin opponents.

If it does other things it's balance.

There.

thats the perfect definition.

I think that category shouldnt be on the list because it would drive the attention away from the other types, thus eventually turning beyblade into a Attack/Left Spin Stealer/Right Spin Stealer rather than Attack/Defense/Stamina/Balance because people would go more for Spin Stealers, given that Left Spin Stealers have advantage over 2 types (those being Defense and Stamina) and Right Spin Stealers to counter them. and even without that category, beyblade is slowly heading that direction. on the current meta-game its now a rare thing to see a right spin defense type. its all attack/Spin Stealer/Stamina/Balance
Jun. 15, 2013  8:34 AM
 
I'll be brief because i need my space for the moment. Black dragon and time are correct. Because of deaths amazing weight distribution it requires different tracks with better lad/ stamina. So someone make comparison tests on e230, sa165, LW160, SR200, F230 (yes it's very likely that it's top tier for stamina, it's use in tornado stallers proves this.) or just plain old 230. This is what my big project is all about. Zero G stamina has to be designed differently being the massive increase in weight must be compensated for by tracks with better LAD/Stamina which is exactly why those tracks I listed are top tier. Spin stealers are just top tier Stamina in left essentially. Nothing more nothing less. Like I said I'm gonna start doing testing now so this my speculation. That's the power total understanding the theory gives me. The power to predict top tier combos without needing to test simply because I understand why Takara released things when they did. I realise however this is a bad habit (equal to plagiarism) because you all think I'm being rude rather than just speculating.

So you all in about a week when I have tests to show everyone. If anyone wants to help just pm me.
Jun. 15, 2013  9:21 AM
 
Ultra Wrote: Because of deaths amazing weight distribution it requires different tracks with better lad/ stamina. So someone make comparison tests on e230, sa165, LW160, SR200, F230 (yes it's very likely that it's top tier for stamina, it's use in tornado stallers proves this.) or just plain old 230. This is what my big project is all about. Zero G stamina has to be designed differently being the massive increase in weight must be compensated for by tracks with better LAD/Stamina which is exactly why those tracks I listed are top tier.
I don't know much about LAD so I won't make much of an argument about it. But at least in my case, I didn't knew E230 and LW160 were any good for stamina. Much less for LAD. this theory of yours seems like it goes against the community's knowledge tier-wise. Which makes me think that this just a hypothesis made out of pure imagination rather than detailed observation. But since you're putting effort to it, I'll be looking forward to your results. Hopefully you will find a place for death as a stamina top tier wheel. I would do some tests myself to help you out but I don't own a Death.


In my opinion, due to the fact that Dragooon is being spammed, I think Death deserves a place on the list but as a Spin equalizing wheel. Because Death surely has too much recoil to be a top tier stamina wheel. There is no way Death could match Duo or phantom in performance vs a right spin bey. Just no.
Jun. 15, 2013  10:33 AM
 
You seem to be missing my a bit. The only reason takara released Zero G at all is because it's a massive improvement on the 4D system. Everyone's notion that Dragooon is so powerful is to put it bluntly completely wrong. Dragooon has been designed so perfectly specifically to make sure it isn't broken. As such anyone who has the time should test death through mirror matches on the tracks I laid out.

To make it clear I am only speculating. It's just that there's only like 4 - 5% chance i'm wrong.
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