I'm not sure about the hasbro ED145 that was really good but with a regular one, no, spinstealing vs defense generally doesn't work because most defense wheels are good stamina wheels - you need a really big LAD advantage to outspin them. Plus ED145 sucks vs low stuff.
Dodging is all well and good in theory but in reality it's pot luck, not a strategy.

Also RDF3, Gravity is a better spin steal wheel than Meteo, and takes hits better when weak launched.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Also, Meteo can be KO'd by the wind, SA165 RDF isn't that hard to deal with, done it myself

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Veteran, just getting back into the sway of things

Remember that Metal Fury L-Drago Guardian is one of the format's heavier wheels. And RDF also makes mincemeat out of a lot of older stuff.

And as it stands, the main left spin attack wheel, lightning, has enough issues as it is - between its light weight and need to use something like TR145 or H145 to hit all heights effectively, and the presence of Libra and Jade (and maybe Omega, haven't tried it), it doesn't really stand out much among the other attack customs.


Nice to hear some of you like my idea re: gravity. No clue what staff etc would think about it, but I'll bring it up in the adv. forum thread soonish to see.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I'll list my opinions:

Cake: Basically Gravity is restricted to Attack and spin steal-attack hybrids (which I wouldn't use aside from F230CF if you ask me- aggro spin steal is really hard to use). Would rather go to RDF on Gravity (obviously that can't be done here) because unlike Meteo it doesn't have anything to help it's already moderate recoil.

@think: I tried out Meteo and Gravity spin steal, and I wouldn't be able to say correctly if Gravity is better. That recoil means it's really hard to use without something like RDF,SA165, and BD145.
Gravity takes hits better because it's heavier than Meteo (33,7 g vs 28,34 g) but IMO it's simply better because of its larger versatility.

@TBD: Try pulling out Earth Cygnus F230CF the next time you see Gravity F230CF. Earth kills spin steal like Death or Duo does.

DrPepsidew: I used Genbull Dragooon SA165RDF (SA165 in Attack mode) successfully in a tourney, but I lost because when I launched, my Beylauncher L skips, causing me to launch too weakly, becoming KO bait for a Saramanda ^2 BD145RDF. SA165RDF kills off spins steal completely especially on Duo/Revizer/Genbull. It's not very easy to deal with, TBH, and with
MF LDD and/or LDG things are simply not safe for RDF.

It's not a matter of opinion though - gravity takes hits better - more weight, meteo's rubber is not huge in absorbing hits really - and will outspin meteo on an identical track/tip in a spin stealing match 1 v 1 (gravity not being quite identical in both directions means it isn't perfect - but FWIW it also visibly works better against other stuff when I was playing around with it - keep in mind I went into Limited being quite convinced gravity was not as good as meteo for spin steal), due to better weight distribution which results in more efficient use of stolen spin. In addition, it is also more effective offensively by a large margin even on setups with poor recoil control (as shown by the fact it is better defensively on spin-steal setups) which is good for more balancey stuff and having some shot at things spin-steal can't OS. It is better at pretty much everything - perhaps there is a weird gimmick use that Meteo could do better in (I doubt it), but straight spin steal, it is no contest. Oh, and of course, it's also more versatile as you said. Have you maybe not tried the Stamina version of Perseus in both modes (one is much better than the other - the smoothly curved one over perseus' jaws, if that makes sense, is best) or something?


Earth F230CF will beat spin stealers, but it will also lose to a huge number of other relevant things - it is not a "practical" counter - i.e. not practical enough that it's a safe enough bet to use given you aren't going to be sure your opponent is using Gravity F230. Much simpler ways to take gravity f230cf/gcf out, with things that do better overall.

Also dunno what it is but you're another person who is saying RDF kills spin steal. For me it doesn't even outlast EWD - may be a matter of tip wear or some other factor like how its defense changes pretty dramatically at a certain point (or at least did for me), but yeah, for me RDF loses very consistently to EWD, let alone F230.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Ummm, that might just be me, because every time I used Dragooon RDF against Duo EWD they end up on a tie. I used a worn RDF so as I said that might just be me or my RDF.

But I was kind of surprised because I never saw Gravity on benchmark spin steal set ups (CH120/TR145/ED145 WD/EWD/W2D) have much success.

That's because nobody has really been testing spin steal customs.

There isn't anything to benchmark for, haha.

RDF, like RF/R2F, has a sort of "prime" condition for use in spin-stealing. It's when the cylindrical protrusion is about 2/3 of its original height. Something too new will fall over more quickly. Generally, even past that height, shorter is better than newer.

And yah, I'm preeeetty sure Gravity does just about everything better than Meteo, haha:

It [Gravity] would completely destroy the viability of Meteo, though, so if anyone likes it a lot that could be a consequence to brace for (I don't like it all that much myself, but I know a couple people who do).

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

Gravity B: D was more relevant than EWD in a format without SA165 around. I didn't do a full 20 rounds but it was blatantly obvious. Meteo on the other hand isn't even worth using on B: D in my opinion - too many good stamina combinations do the same things much better in the frame of reference Limited is based on, though I may be a little negatively biased against it because of what I was using against it.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Scythe B : D (and pretty much most stamina combos) > Meteo B : D

Meteo B : D is not only very risky, but doesn't even spin steal as effectively as Dragooon in my opinion (Samurai Dragooon B : D is worth looking into more actually, pretty good). As much as I love Gravity, I'd hate to see it come back. It beat Meteo in my tests on every spin steal customization I put it on. Gravity spin steal wouldn't really be that dominant really in Limited, but we still have to worry about F230/D125 GCF/CF.

On the topic of spin steal, I like to use TR145 over ED145 just because TR145 takes hits better. I don't really think the rollers are that relevant on it and it may just be superstition because the rollers on the TT TR145 are more free spinning than Hasbros, but I don't think it really matters which you use.

Oh and on Gravity again, even limiting its use by spin direction, combo, etc. I would still not like it to be reintroduced in Limited.

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still posi

Not a fan of Meteo B myself.

I heard it was good and gave it a shot, but I'm not too impressed, at all.

I've tested it several times, just against Earth-based Stamina combinations, lost continuously.

Meteo CH120 EWD, among others, constantly outperforms it.

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

Can't handle LTSC, can't handle MF-H Libra TH220CS, can't handle a light breeze.

Not even competitive tbh. MLD CH120EWD is a little better but even then I'm still on the fence about it.

Tri: To be fair, Scythe B: D is outright better than most stamina combos too, because Scythe is a broken piece of carp.

As for gravity d125gcf, do you have a Libra yet? If so, MF-H Libra CH120RF tests would be neato.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Can't handle LTSC, can't handle MF-H Libra TH220CS, can't handle a light breeze.

Not even competitive tbh. MLD CH120EWD is a little better but even then I'm still on the fence about it.

Tri: To be fair, Scythe B: D is outright better than most stamina combos too, because Scythe is a broken piece of carp.

As for gravity d125gcf, do you have a Libra yet? If so, MF-H Libra CH120RF tests would be neato.

I wouldn't say Meteo Ch120 EWD isn't competitive, I personally love it.

For me, at least, it gets pretty good results- only huge issue being it's weight.

In Before The Big Bang, (technically not Limited but pretty much same idea), Meteo CH120 placed second, only losing to me (Hell Cancer BD145 WD- which isn't legal in this format, anyways). It defeated Burn 90 MF, an Earth Stamina setup or two, and even a Basalt setup (but again, illegal in this format).

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

But that's all against defense, stamina, and hybrids. I don't think it'd fare well against attack.

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“In the course of twenty crowded years, one parts with many illusions. I did not wish to lose the early ones. Some memories are realities, and are better than anything that can ever happen again.” -Jim Burden (My Ántonia)

But that's all against defense, stamina, and hybrids. I don't think it'd fare well against attack.

I know, I mentioned it's main issue was it's weight.

But again, aside from Scythe, many Stamina types in Limited have the flaw of being lightweight and vulnerable to Attack.

That'd be like saying since Duo B can beat Defense and Stamina combinations in Zero-G, it would still be killed by Sway Attack.

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

RDF3, I was referring to /just/ Meteo.
I try not to use Meteo unless it's a safe bet, in VA we tend to throw a lot of attack, so the weight is definitely a problem.
As for it needing to be on mid-height, that may be so. But limited format is mostly attack. So it wouldn't be all that practical to use here, or anywhere with somewhat skilled bladers.

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Veteran, just getting back into the sway of things

RDF3, I was referring to /just/ Meteo.
I try not to use Meteo unless it's a safe bet, in VA we tend to throw a lot of attack, so the weight is definitely a problem.
As for it needing to be on mid-height, that may be so. But limited format is mostly attack. So it wouldn't be all that practical to use here, or anywhere with somewhat skilled bladers.

In CT, Attack isn't as commonly used, especially considering we've only had one other Limited event; so people may be a bit weary of what to use. Choosing to use it or it placing (Year of the Bey and Before the Big Bang) doesn't necessarily mean the area lacks "somewhat skilled Bladers".

Meteo CH120 isn't the only option- Meteo F230 CF is works pretty nicely, as well- better, to an extent.

Either way, Meteo's success may depend on the region, as you said.

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

Against Burn Tornado Stallers MLD CH120EWD isn't really a safe bet from what I've seen - it comes down to how you and your opponent launch - if you launch full strength and they go for the KO, you're in trouble, if you weak launch and they stall well, you're not going to outspin them. May be a safe middle ground but it'd be a pretty unforgiving thing, and I haven't tried it since I've improved with MF-L Burn Cancer 85MF (I seem to KO more now) but IIRC it was one of the reasons I preferred 0 Cyclinder Rock for tornado stalling - again not quite 100% on this, but rock didn't have trouble with it being weak launched in terms of knocking it out. Spin Stealers in general are going to have trouble as more aggressive libra combinations start showing up as it KO's them with relative ease, and CH120EWD still fell to MF-H Libra TH220CS for me in both 120 and 145 modes. Again, a bit of an unkind matchup, but there were also other more aggressive defense customs that were KOing it without trouble and so on - BD145 was very helpful to it in that regard when it was being used in Standard, I think.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Oh come on, don't take it as an insult, jeez. I also specified VA for a reason, and your last point is what I was getting at
I like Meteo on F230, but I can't really use it here in VA for the same reason I stated in my last post XD

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Veteran, just getting back into the sway of things

I think we should adopt a new term for Attack users - let's say "confident", maybe? Because that's the key part, really, how confident you are you can make it win without messing up.

But yeah pepsidew that's basically what I was saying about it - it's a good combination sure, but given what works well in limited, it just doesn't have a comfortable time. Same goes for a whole lot of balancey stuff, which is good - I would prefer to keep the number of 'safe' combos low, otherwise things get kinda dull IMO.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Oh come on, don't take it as an insult, jeez. I also specified VA for a reason, and your last point is what I was getting at
I like Meteo on F230, but I can't really use it here in VA for the same reason I stated in my last post XD

I wasn't really taking it as one, haha. I was simply stating that for the majority, aside from me (at times) and a few others, Attack isn't quite as common. It really depends on the region.

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

Has anyone tried the good ol' Storm for LTAC yet? Despite being usable back when Libra was big-time (shortly before it's ban) I personally think it's not powerful enough here with all that competition.

Honestly if Indonesia's Tournament scene is revived (OR at least I hope so) I gotta tell them about the Limited Format. We Indonesians like using odd-ball combos (e.g using Basalt on F230CF or on B), who knows if we discover something good?

Has anyone tried the good ol' Storm for LTAC yet? Despite being usable back when Libra was big-time (shortly before it's ban) I personally think it's not powerful enough here with all that competition.

Honestly if Indonesia's Tournament scene is revived (OR at least I hope so) I gotta tell them about the Limited Format. We Indonesians like using odd-ball combos (e.g using Basalt on F230CF or on B), who knows if we discover something good?

Usable, sure - probably better off on CH120 given it has no real vertical. Actually any good at all despite the comparisons to Lightning? No. Not at all, and I don't know how that not only happened but lasted for as long as it did. I could rant for hours about that and a few other gems from back then, but suffice to say, Storm isn't worthwhile.

Would like to see Indonesia revived, miss a few people from there being active on the forums.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Quick question – What are some viable counters to MF-H Lightning L-Drago TR145/CH120R2F?

I was thinking along the lines of a Scythe Defense/Anti-Attack custom, but Metal Fury L-Drago Guardian popped into my head as well.

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(Click to View)

Tournaments I've Attended (Click to View)

4/29/12: The Spring Sortie (BB-10)
7/22/12: The Triple Threat (MFB+Plastics+HMS formats)
9/23/12: Autumn's Assault (Zero G)
October 2012: October Achtung (Zero G) (placed second)
12/15/12: Holiday Havoc! (Zero-G)
2/24/13: Paper vs. Plastic (Zero-G+Plastic Formats)
4/21/13: BR Maryland Qualifier (Zero-G)
5/26/12: BeyDays 2013! (BB-10) (placed first)
7/14/13: Heated Metal Plastic-y Madness! (HMS + Plastics) (placed third in HMS)
7/20/13: The Bey Brawl! (BB-10)
9/28/13 "OK, alright, mirai~!" (BB-10) (placed second)
12/15/13 No Limit Holdem'! (Zero-G, Limited)
1/19/14 Happy Gnu Year! (Zero-G)
2/23/14 Better Late Than Never! (Limited, Plastics, which I got 3rd in)
3/29/14 GBT2 North Carolina Qualfier (Limited, got 4th)
3/30/14 GBT2 Maryland Qualifier (Limited)
6/8/14 A Prehistoric Venture (Limited, HMS, placed first in HMS)
6/21/14 A Timely Farewell (Standard, Tag-Team (not official format), Zero-G, placed first in tag-team and third in Zero-G)

My Testing Threads (All Zero-G) (Click to View)

Diablo Kerbecs E230CF
SB Discussion
Q Discussion
MB Discussion
RS Discussion
BWD Discussion
MF-H Gravity Perseus BD145 RDF
MF-H Duo F230CF
F:S Discussion
SA165 Discussion

HMS Resources (Click to View)

HMS Question and Answer Thread
Competitive HMS Combos List
HMS Parts Discussion
HMS General Discussion

MF-H Libra/Scythe CH120RF will wreck it really bad. Low Track Defense usually works well against mid-height Lightning customs as well, so if you wanna go straight-up Defense you could try that (IIRC Bakushin works best, so MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RB would probably be your best bet).

Studying for the qualifier are we?

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

OK, thanks for your help.

Yes sir, it seems you guys love LLD in NC, might as well counter it and crush every petty NC soul while I'm there eh?

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(Click to View)

Tournaments I've Attended (Click to View)

4/29/12: The Spring Sortie (BB-10)
7/22/12: The Triple Threat (MFB+Plastics+HMS formats)
9/23/12: Autumn's Assault (Zero G)
October 2012: October Achtung (Zero G) (placed second)
12/15/12: Holiday Havoc! (Zero-G)
2/24/13: Paper vs. Plastic (Zero-G+Plastic Formats)
4/21/13: BR Maryland Qualifier (Zero-G)
5/26/12: BeyDays 2013! (BB-10) (placed first)
7/14/13: Heated Metal Plastic-y Madness! (HMS + Plastics) (placed third in HMS)
7/20/13: The Bey Brawl! (BB-10)
9/28/13 "OK, alright, mirai~!" (BB-10) (placed second)
12/15/13 No Limit Holdem'! (Zero-G, Limited)
1/19/14 Happy Gnu Year! (Zero-G)
2/23/14 Better Late Than Never! (Limited, Plastics, which I got 3rd in)
3/29/14 GBT2 North Carolina Qualfier (Limited, got 4th)
3/30/14 GBT2 Maryland Qualifier (Limited)
6/8/14 A Prehistoric Venture (Limited, HMS, placed first in HMS)
6/21/14 A Timely Farewell (Standard, Tag-Team (not official format), Zero-G, placed first in tag-team and third in Zero-G)

My Testing Threads (All Zero-G) (Click to View)

Diablo Kerbecs E230CF
SB Discussion
Q Discussion
MB Discussion
RS Discussion
BWD Discussion
MF-H Gravity Perseus BD145 RDF
MF-H Duo F230CF
F:S Discussion
SA165 Discussion

HMS Resources (Click to View)

HMS Question and Answer Thread
Competitive HMS Combos List
HMS Parts Discussion
HMS General Discussion