I see. Holding it in hands just won't tell u the exact balance.......
thx guys, appreciate ur help.

It will tell you plenty if you actually know what you're looking at...

Hm... I thought it'd be good to test Scythe solo-spin times.

Set-Up:

Spoiler (Click to View)

Aquario 145 WD

I didn't want to use W145 just incase it would increase the spin-time by some extra stamina; So I thought 145 seemed fare.

Scythe AA1:

Spoiler (Click to View)

*2:12:34
*2:15:75
*2:18:28
*2:24:54
*2:17:73

Avrage: 2:17:54

Scythe AA2:

Spoiler (Click to View)

*4:00:76
*3:35:68
*3:28:59
*3:59:33
*3:41:68

Avrage: 3:41:76

Scythe AA3:

Spoiler (Click to View)

*1:56:47
*1:36:24
*1:24:89
*1:45:52
*2:00:47

Avrage: 1:36:89

Scythe AA4:

Spoiler (Click to View)

*3:35:57
*3:13:53
*3:56:23
*3:35:06
*3:46:46

Avrage:3:35:57

So as you can tell there wasn't really a diffrents in AA4 and AA2. Whilst this might not help, I hope this has someway.

Wow what is with those AA1 and AA3 spin times... How is this difference not very visible...

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Wow...

That's kind of, uh, insane. Geez, I've got an AA3... TA, do you get significantly different results with each in Stamina matchups?

IIRC there's never been much of a gap between molds as far as Stamina goes ('twas mostly Defense/Attack related attributes that were shifting). Perhaps we just didn't look closely enough.

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

There was a definite stamina difference, it was the first indicator that something was up, in fact - TA initially got really amazing results vs Duo, then he did more tests and they were less amazing, and this was before the mold thing was noticed. The worse results from other people were from people with non-AA2 Scythes.
The key performance difference in the CH120RF setup is one where Scythe is KOing using its flywheel effect so a solo spin improvement is unsurprising.
Defense is where we've not seen a gap, but I don't think anyone tested a non-AA2 Scythe there except Tri, who gets unusually good results with his non-AA2 Scythe in general.

The Alchemist's AA2 and AA4 scythes are pretty heavy but that solo spin time is similar to mine, which is not exceptionally heavy compared to others weights of their non-AA2 Scythes. Generally speaking, the AA2 time at least is not surprising to me.

However what is surprising is just how badly AA1 and AA3 did in general - those are some pathetic spin times. Surely the outer walls must be thinner on them with weight shifted towards the centre or something because that is just ridiculous.

Hm... The Alchemist, do your AA1 and AA3 Scythes move around any more on WD than your AA2?

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

There was a definite stamina difference, it was the first indicator that something was up, in fact - TA initially got really amazing results vs Duo, then he did more tests and they were less amazing, and this was before the mold thing was noticed. The worse results from other people were from people with non-AA2 Scythes.
The key performance difference in the CH120RF setup is one where Scythe is KOing using its flywheel effect so a solo spin improvement is unsurprising.
Defense is where we've not seen a gap, but I don't think anyone tested a non-AA2 Scythe there except Tri, who gets unusually good results with his non-AA2 Scythe in general.

The Alchemist's AA2 and AA4 scythes are pretty heavy but that solo spin time is similar to mine, which is not exceptionally heavy compared to others weights of their non-AA2 Scythes. Generally speaking, the AA2 time at least is not surprising to me.

However what is surprising is just how badly AA1 and AA3 did in general - those are some pathetic spin times. Surely the outer walls must be thinner on them with weight shifted towards the centre or something because that is just ridiculous.

Hm... The Alchemist, do your AA1 and AA3 Scythes move around any more on WD than your AA2?

Um... It's quite hard to th!nk. I believe Scythe AA1/3 was moving around - Wait more like they was swaying. Another thing to note: I did find wider holes on my AA1/3 and the Metal was also sloping in just by a few inches. Those hole mighy be creating the loss of Scythe AA1/3's stamina. It was weird at first for me.

I'm sorry I can't provide pictures.

Can you try to describe it a bit better? Perhaps take one of the pictures of scythe that has been posted and use that to show what you mean, like draw on whatever with an explanation or point out where things are?

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Can you try to describe it a bit better? Perhaps take one of the pictures of scythe that has been posted and use that to show what you mean, like draw on whatever with an explanation or point out where things are?

Sorry, I can't do that. Scythe has some holo points under it. I was looking at my AA1/3 and AA2/4 I looked at the same holo points and saw AA1/3's was bigger. Lighting it up and maybe decresing its balance.

I can't really go into deep detail now.

Would Vulcan be good on GB145 and RSF?

Vulcan does best on low tracks, 85, 90 ect for attack. It's not really a defense wheel and if it was, 85/90 wouldn't work better. However, from my testing - If you use a Rubber defense bottom on Vulcan it's gonna get some reall bad scraping and recoil problems. That's why it's best to go with anti-attack/attack with Vulcan so you can avoide that risk.

FWIW, R145 would work better then GB145.

Cool thanks man, I was thinking in using to KO Meteo L-Drago F230CF

Vulcan does best on low tracks, 85, 90 ect for attack. It's not really a defense wheel and if it was, 85/90 wouldn't work better. However, from my testing - If you use a Rubber defense bottom on Vulcan it's gonna get some reall bad scraping and recoil problems. That's why it's best to go with anti-attack/attack with Vulcan so you can avoide that risk.

FWIW, R145 would work better then GB145.

Just to clarify, as I know you were talking about defense, but GB145 is better for Vulcan offensively, puts weight where Vulcan needs it, but generally speaking Vulcan is much better on 85/90/100/CH120.

But yeah RSF is not a good tip choice for Vulcan as vulcan isn't a defensive wheel.

Vulcan GB145RF would *probably* work against mld f230cf but there are better attack setups that would do that and much more.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Really? 'Cause R145 always worked better on Vulcan then GB145 for me...

Really? 'Cause R145 always worked better on Vulcan then GB145 for me...

Might do that for Mold 1's against some opponents where the recoil could be problematic, but GB145 puts weight right where vulcan needs it (not enough to make it as good as lower tracks but if you have to use Vulcan at 145-height, GB145 is the track to go with).

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Is Scythe and Duo the best for stamina?
What attacking beyblade does best with a 145 height track?
Is lightning L drago better with the 85 height track than any other attacking bey using the 85 height track?

Is Scythe and Duo the best for stamina?
What attacking beyblade does best with a 145 height track?
Is lightning L drago better with the 85 height track than any other attacking bey using the 85 height track?

Try looking around the topics in Limited a little before asking.

Scythe is very good for Stamina, Duo is also good- but Earth can be better, in certain cases, if I remember correctly.

Debatably, depending on the Beyblade- both GB145 and R145 are some of the best 145 tracks for Attack use, but there is no true "best". Some good combinations with those are Lightning L-Drago R145 RF and Samurai Wyvang GB145/R145 R2F.

The last question would be hard to answer, since there hasn't been testing with 85 on all Attack combinations.

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

Yeah, Sythe would be the best, followed by Duo.

MF-H Lightning L-Drago H145R2F, MSF-H Samurai Wyvang(Chrome Up) GB145R2F, etc.

No, I'd say Omega or Beat.

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6 God is watching and I hope you're prepared to face him

1. Scythe and Duo aren't always the best. In my play, Earth outclasses Duo, but Burn comes close too. For Scythe, it depends on your Mould. If you have a AA2 or AA4 it may perform better then Earth, Burn and Duo. To answer your question: No, not all the time for Duo, but it depends on your Scythe.

2. They are alot of attack Beyblades that does good with 145 tracks. Shinobi/Samurai Wyvang does good on R145 whilst Vulcan Horuseus may do better on GB145. So there really isn't a best track in this case. It depends on what Wheel you're using for your Beyblade... So I'd head for the Build me a Combo there for help with 145 combos.

3. That is not true. Dark Night Wyvang/Gryph 85LRF works really well on 85. So does Vulcan.

Sry, this might be off topic, but which mold is better, AA2 or AA4, and what set would I be able to get it from?

Look at my post above.

From results I've seen/gathered AA2 seems to be the better mold. AA3 being the worst, followed by AA1.

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6 God is watching and I hope you're prepared to face him

Duo has the highest pure Stamina of any Metal Wheel legal in the format. It can be picky about its Track/Bottom combinations, but overall it will usually out-spin every other wheel it goes up against (even an AA2 Scythe IIRC).

The idea that it was/is outclassed by Scythe/Earth was birthed from the notion that its Defense is ridiculously low (although personally, I don't find it to pose any problem again Stamina/Defense types - it is more vulnerable to Attack, but at that point it's completely irrelevant, as Earth/Scythe will lose to a well-placed Attack type anyway). At that point, everything gets foggy, since you have to determine whether "better" means "more applicable in terms of pure Stamina," or "less risky (supposedly) in general."

Lightning... I'd say not. From personal experience, Dark Knight Bahamdia/Ifraid (yah, Ifraid; try it people) and Omega both out-do it pretty comfortably in most cases.

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

Is Scythe and Duo the best for stamina?
What attacking beyblade does best with a 145 height track?
Is lightning L drago better with the 85 height track than any other attacking bey using the 85 height track?

I see you've got a lot of mixed answers and I'm quite certain on these so here:

Scythe and Duo are best is the simple answer, in more complex terms, due to the mold (and less well defined) variations in scythe wheels, it can perform better or worse than Duo depending on the mold - the better molds do better, and scythe's overall heavy weight also likely makes it more practical compared to duo which is very light. However, as Scythe will likely be banned in future and as it is nearly impossible to be certain you'll get a good mold when buying, duo is probably a safer investment.
Keep in mind this refers to the metal fury versions, as the original are not legal.
It is also worth noting that while scythe's weight makes stamina combinations using it quite dependable defensively for stamina customs, neither it not duo work well on low tracks (and I vaguely recall duo being hit and miss at 145, but you would want to check the thread for that), so if you like the low-risk presented by low track stamina customs, you should probably stick to Earth.

There are numerous good choices for the 145 height. MSF-H Thief Phoenix H145RF is versatile and quite effective against all heights (less so LTDC, but it does better than most 145 height things) though currently scythe gb145/r145 defense is kind of a problem for it. MF(-H) Lightning L-Drago TR145RF is very good though I find it struggles with LTDC, where h145 offers a higher risk, higher reward alternative. LLD's light weight can be troublesome against certain heavy wheels on RF seeing as it usually runs head first into them, though right spin attack wheels only generally net around 50% against these anyway (because a lot of it is luck with collisions). Finally, Cosmic is supposed to be very effective on r145 but I don't own one yet and am not sure how it handles bakushin LTDC off the top of my head (the alchemist probably tested that somewhere though). There are others that work well on 145 height tracks but generally they often seem to struggle with LTDC so I've left them off. Personally, ch120 is probably the best attack track right now anyway.

LLD is good on 85 but Omega is probably the best user of the track from tests so far. Generally low track attack combos struggle with 230 and TH170, which Omega seems to manage against, making it a better option. That said, there are some conflicting tests. Aside from that, Lightning and Screw use it well to my knowledge (some people find Dark Knight works well on 85 with certain chrome wheels, but personally I'm yet to find a chrome wheel LTAC that didn't struggle against one of Libra/Bakushin LTDC, Libra GB145RSF or Libra/Flame 230RB). It is also worth noting that many ch120 customs do just as well or better against many low opponents and similarly against 145 height defense while being more reliable against tall tracks than low track attack customs, meaning LTDC are somewhat struggling to find a place, though they generally do have the advantage of being effective against taller opposing attack types 1v1, and Omega does seem to do quite well against most heights on 85.

@TheBlackDragon: Is (MSF-H) Dark Knight Bahamdia 85RF (Crystal Up) actually decent? IIRC that was something I suggested specifically just for testing how well tracks took hits, so seeing it recommended as effective feels a little weird haha.

Samurai Wyvang GB145/R145 R2F.

No offense, but Samurai is a pretty awful offensive crystal wheel. Shinobi seems the best choice for Wyvang in right spin so far.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Samurai Wyvang GB145/R145 R2F.

No offense, but Samurai is a pretty awful offensive crystal wheel. Shinobi seems the best choice for Wyvang in right spin so far.

I wouldn't say it's awful, seeing how good it was in my tests for it- but yeah, Shinobi is more offensive- but Samurai isn't a horrible choice, either.

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

Samurai Wyvang GB145/R145 R2F.

No offense, but Samurai is a pretty awful offensive crystal wheel. Shinobi seems the best choice for Wyvang in right spin so far.

I wouldn't say it's awful, seeing how good it was in my tests for it- but yeah, Shinobi is more offensive- but Samurai isn't a horrible choice, either.

I would, compared to other clear wheels it's atrocious against taller things. It's good at taking hits in MSF-H Samurai Genbull 85RB (Crystal Up), so that should tell you something about how effective it is on offensive combinations. In the tests I was doing for Crystal Wheel Attack on Wyvang a while back (only got to 10 rounds and didn't have shinobi then), it was doing pretty awful, with Gladiator and Theif both doing better. It has to shove things out of the ring because it has like 0 smash.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

No offense, but Samurai is a pretty awful offensive crystal wheel. Shinobi seems the best choice for Wyvang in right spin so far.

I wouldn't say it's awful, seeing how good it was in my tests for it- but yeah, Shinobi is more offensive- but Samurai isn't a horrible choice, either.

I would, compared to other clear wheels it's atrocious against taller things. It's good at taking hits in MSF-H Samurai Genbull 85RB (Crystal Up), so that should tell you something about how effective it is on offensive combinations. In the tests I was doing for Crystal Wheel Attack on Wyvang a while back (only got to 10 rounds and didn't have shinobi then), it was doing pretty awful, with Gladiator and Theif both doing better. It has to shove things out of the ring because it has like 0 smash.

Eh, they are certainly worse choices than Samurai, but you bring up good points.

Never heard of Thief of Wyvang, though.

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

Thief does nothing great for it other than still be reasonably heavy and moderately aggressive. I only know about it on wyvang because that's the wheel I was using for the tests, and its exposure of the main contact point of wyvang in right spin isn't *incredible*, but it's pretty aggressive - forget whether it or Gladiator were doing the best at that time, but either way with shinobi being downright perfect for Wyvang, it's pretty much that and Dark Knight that are worth recommending now (well I guess I don't have Archer, Guardian or Berserker but I don't think the former two are aggressive enough, and the latter is under the 5g mark so it'd have to do something reaaaal special to deserve it).

By the way guys, I played around with some Chrome-Wheel based LTAC, and all of them seemed pretty hit and miss against something from the range of:
MF-H Bakushin Horogium 85RSF
MF-H Libra 85RSF (which is very good, as is RB and of course RF, which Coach made a thread for)
MF-H Libra GB145RSF (especially when aggressive vs Dark Knight stuff)
MF-H Libra 230RB
MF-H Flame Cancer 230RB

Won't write a blogpost on it but here were my notes, not based on a huge number of rounds so take everything with a pinch of salt, but basically if you feel like playing around with that kinda thing, here are some ideas:
everything MSF-H + 85RF. Tried pretty much every chrome and crystal wheel I had that made sense and plenty that didn't.
Shinobi Revizer (Chrome Up) - Mostly just a demonstration of Revizer's top side being kinda aggro, between the skipping and the huge power of that one raised corner it actually does pretty well, not awful against Bakushin LTDC, but useless vs Libra 85/GB145
Shinobi Balro (Chrome Up): Not that effective vs Libra 85/GB145 due to recoil, but not a bad setup. Shinobi is the best crystal wheel I've found so far with decent weight to it that exposes the contact points.
Dark Knight Balro (Crystal Up): Very good, but still struggled with Libra GB145 with an aggressive RSF, and overall wasn't that amazing vs 145 defense anyway.
Gladiator Dragooon: Pretty solid vs Bakushin and tall track stuff but Libra messes it up on 85/GB145
Dark Knight Bahamdia (Crystal Up): I am surprised this thing worked out and wasn't just a ploy from TheBlackDragon to get rid of F230 by having people snap them in half with this. Kinda dodgy vs Libra LTDC and again, an aggressive RSF means Libra GB145 wrecks it, but this was really impressive and I'm glad to see Bahamdia finally living up to its potential in some way.
Bandid Wyvang (Chrome Up): Went with Bandid because it was doing really mean things to Bakushin which is great. Inconsistent vs Libra LTDC, though less awful than most vs MF-H Libra GB145RSF.
Dark Knight Ifraid (Crystal Up): TBD wasn't kidding, this is actually pretty good, though personally, Genbull, Bahamdia and Balro would probably sit above it IMO. Another DK combo that can't do too much to Libra GB145RSF with an aggressive RSF, though.
Dark Knight Genbull (Crystal Up): Surprisingly not completely useless vs Libra LTDC, and even not terrible vs Libra GB145RSF, though still not great. Good setup, though I'd not rely on it.
Shinobi Goreim (Crystal Up): Okay this is only here because it knocked Bakushin silly, it was awful against everything else but hey, Goreim doing stuff always makes me happy. You go, little guy!
Samurai Satamanda (Chrome Up): This actually did okay against everything somehow, just not great against anything. Basically uses the gap in saramanda's side as the major contact point and Samurai seemed best for that. Hops quite a bit, seems to help. As I said, not great, but hey, I got saramanda to do something what more do you want from me?

If it's a combo of those parts in some other orientation or whatever, or a well known setup for a chrome wheel or whatever that I own, I tried it out and it didn't impress.

Oh and MF-H LLD 85RF did a lot better than expected in general, even managed to get it KOing MF-H Libra 230RB a bit by launching like a maniac and getting my launch right so it bounced off walls instead of flying out exits. LLD 85RF is so fast that it is amazing fun to use. Still, basically your standard LTAC - it's good vs low and mid-height stuff but useless against tall stuff - very different to anything above, which generally work well against tall stuff but struggle with mid or low libra combos - in fact I almost feel like LTAC isn't an appropriate term for them, even if they are attack combos on low tracks, haha.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

For stamina combinations, EWD or SWD?
WD or SD?