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MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion

Sep. 21, 2014  2:58 AM
 
Alright, got some Libra Stamina mirror-match comparisons here:

Libra 85WD vs. Earth Cancer 85WD
WD Bottoms in mint condition. Parts swapped every 5 rounds. Libra launched first on even launches, Earth launched first on odd.
Libra: wins, 0/10
Earth: wins, 10/10 (All OS)
Libra 85WD win rate: 0%

Note even close. Total blow-out. Earth won every round by a mile.

Libra W145WD vs. Earth Cancer W145WD
WD Bottoms in mint condition. Parts swapped every 5 rounds. Libra launched first on even launches, Earth launched first on odd.
Libra: wins, 11/20 (All OS)
Earth: wins, 9/20 (All OS)
Libra W145WD win rate: 55%

Now this was interesting. This was very, very close. The decisive match that put Libra at 55% came down to a single rotation.

Libra TH220D vs. Earth Cancer TH220D
Parts swapped every 5 rounds. Libra launched first on even launches, Earth launched first on odd.
Libra: wins, 9/20 (All OS)
Earth: wins, 11/20 (All OS)
Libra TH220D win rate: 45%

This was kind of close, but Earth's wins were definitely cleaner.

After doing these, I'm convinced that listing Libra as an LTSC or an HTSC is a bad idea. Mid-height Stamina, however, could be a different story. With all the success I'm hearing about with Libra B : D, mid-height setups could be the key (and possibly the cause of the controversy; if supporters of Libra are testing with B : D and W145, and those opposed are testing with 85 and TH220/230, that would explain why some people get great results with it, and some people get not-so-great results with it).

Now, I have no idea what this next test means; it completely blew my mind. If anybody thinks they can give an explanation for this, go ahead and give it a shot, because I'm flabbergasted:

Libra W145WD vs. Duo Cancer W145WD
WD Bottoms in mint condition. Parts swapped every 5 rounds. Libra launched first on even launches, Duo launched first on odd.
Libra: wins, 8/10 (2 KO, 6 OS)
Duo: wins, 2/10 (All OS)
Libra W145WD win rate: 80%

... I'm not even going to try to explain that.

From testing all over the site, it's always been Duo > Scythe > Burn > Earth, and now, from these tests, it would seem that Duo > Earth > Libra, and yet, at the same time, Libra > Duo.

It's like a = b = c ≠ a

:\
Sep. 21, 2014  3:12 AM
 
Interesting results.

I think the next step for determining if Libra deserves a spot on the Stamina section (which I am for) is to test Earth, Duo, Burn, and Libra BGrin mirror matches.
Sep. 22, 2014  4:14 AM
 
I'll try to do some Libra Stamina testing soon. It is something we need to figure out definitively.
Sep. 22, 2014  10:24 PM
 
Libra testing yay

Alternating launches; CW (if applicable), track and tip were switched halfway through.
Libra W145WD vs Earth Cancer W145WD
Libra wins: 12 (60%)
Earth wins: 8 (40%)

These matches were pretty much even. Libra had a slight advantage because it could Force Smash Earth using its smash-y underside and Earth's slopes, which would pretty much shut down Earth at the end of the match. Also, Libra seemed to stay up for longer; I think it has a slightly lower COG because it has some overhang, which makes it more stable. But, for the most part, it was a pretty much even matchup. The winner was usually the Beyblade launched second; the tiny advantage the delay in launching gave was the main deciding factor. In a tournament setting, where both Bladers launch at the same time, Libra would probably win, but not by much.

Anyways, I guess this confirms TBD's test.

And here's a benchmark vs Burn:
Burn Cancer W145WD vs Earth Cancer W145WD
Burn wins: 10 (100%)
Earth wins: 0 (0%)

After three rounds, it was pretty clear that Burn was going to win every match. I switched the parts at 5 rounds instead of 10, and it didn't help Earth any. Burn won every match by several rotations; Earth never got a chance.


I'll get some Burn vs Libra testing up later, since I just ate a bunch of buttery crackers and now my hands are too greasy to launch properly Tongue_out
Sep. 23, 2014  1:15 AM
 
(Sep. 22, 2014  10:24 PM)Cake Wrote: And here's a benchmark vs Burn:
Burn Cancer W145WD vs Earth Cancer W145WD
Burn wins: 10 (100%)
Earth wins: 0 (0%)

After three rounds, it was pretty clear that Burn was going to win every match. I switched the parts at 5 rounds instead of 10, and it didn't help Earth any. Burn won every match by several rotations; Earth never got a chance.

Do you mind doing B:D mirror matches? At Beydays I had an almost-mirror match (I used MF-L Earth Cancer B:D and my opponent used MF-F Burn Aquario B:D) and ended up winning. TBD also said that our B:Ds were about equal in free-spin.

I would do them but I only have one B:D.
Sep. 23, 2014  1:43 AM
 
I also have only one B:D, and although I can borrow one from BasaltSpam, our B:Ds are very different in performance - his is a horrid mold and mine is about average, so I'm also unable to test it properly.

EDIT: dangit new page, please look at the last page for my Libra tests. Here's the relevant post for this:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Sep. 27, 2014  11:05 PM
 
Wait what? It's not a new page. Maybe you're having browser issues or something.

But anyways, I was finally able to do some tests on some things.
I finished trying Screw on 85SF, and I didn't find it too impressive. Sorry, TSO.

MF-H Screw Uranus 85RF vs. MF-H Earth Cancer R145RB
Uranus: 10 wins (9 KO, 1 OS)
Cancer: 10 wins (2 KO, 8 OS)
Uranus win rate: 50%

MF-H Screw Uranus 85SF vs. MF-H Earth Cancer R145RB
Uranus: 7 wins (2 KO, 5 OS)
Cancer: 13 wins (9 OS, 4 KO)
3 ties redone
Uranus win rate: 30%

I also tested Vulcan and it wasn't that bad compared to Lightning and Screw.

MF-L Vulcan Byxis 100R2F vs. MF-H Earth Cancer R145RB
Byxis: 9 wins (all KO)
Cancer: 11 wins (all OS)
Byxis win rate: 45%

MF-L Lightning L-Drago CH120LRF vs. MF-H Earth Cancer R145RB
L-Drago: 11 wins (8 KO, 3 OS)
Cancer: 9 wins (all OS)
2 ties redone
L-Drago win rate: 55%

MF-L Omega Horuseus CH120RF vs. MF-H Earth Cancer R145RB
Horuseus: 16 wins (14 KO, 2 OS)
Cancer: 4 wins (all OS)
1 tie redone
Horuseus win rate: 80%

^That was the first time I had ever used Omega. I knew it was strong but it carped on every other Attack Wheel that I had. I'm starting to think Attack should just be Lightning and Omega.

Also, I said something 4-6 weeks ago about Burn and Meteo being too light and recoily for B:D, so I ended up testing it against my favorite Defense type in Limited.

MF-L Burn Cancer B:D vs. MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF
Cancer: 7 wins (all OS)
Leone: 13 wins (all KO)
Cancer win rate: 35%

MF-L Meteo L-Drago B:D vs. MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF
L-Drago: 10 wins (all OS)
Leone: 10 wins (all KO)
2 ties redone
L-Drago win rate: 50%
Sep. 27, 2014  11:41 PM
 
@[Wombat] Yes, sadly I realized that a while ago once TBD did a couple tests lol. Thanks though :p
I am, however, still in favor of the BGrin combos for stamina. They aren't meant to be defensive; Bakushin only won by KOs.
Sep. 27, 2014  11:52 PM
 
Yeah, while the discussion was still relevant, I was originally doing the Screw 85SF tests at night, and then my parents made me go to bed. The next day I broke my wrist so I couldn't finish them until today.

But on the topic of B:D Stamina, I'm cool with having Earth, Scythe, and Libra up there, because they also have some defensive ability while still having roughly equal Stamina to Burn and Meteo. It's like using Phantom (Burn) B:D as opposed to Duo (Earth) B:D in Standard. I also think I mentioned Earth winning the almost-mirror match against Burn in this thread.
Sep. 28, 2014  1:00 AM
 
If these do manage to help, I got two Screw Uranus tests done involving both SF and BSF as tips, since I did plan on doing more of those for The Supreme One's Tip Variations and the Way That They Impact Performance thread, either way. Anyhow, here they are!:

Battles Notes:

~ MF-M Burn Cancer AD145WD is launched first all matches.
~ All three bottoms being used are in their prime.

MF-L Screw Uranus 90SF vs MF-M Burn Cancer AD145WD: (Click to View)

I also did MF-L Screw Uranus 90BSF ones, as BSF did better for Attack setups than SF, according to the MF-H Pegasis 90 SF/BSF testings I against Stamina, though it did even worse these next battles. Confused

MF-L Screw Uranus 90BSF vs MF-M Burn Cancer AD145WD: (Click to View)

Wombat Wrote:Wait what? It's not a new page. Maybe your having browser issues or something.

I can guarantee that Cake is right on what he said, as I'm seeing the new page myself.
Oct. 17, 2014  7:39 AM
 
Just thought I'd try to bump this, is there any sort of actual consensus on a tier list we could publish in the near future?
Oct. 17, 2014  3:01 PM
 
personnally in limited you can make a lot of competitive combos. I did'nt see a specific combos in each categories to put a tier list on.

the only thing that I could say it will be a tier, that some metal wheel are more common than other part. Exemple: Earth, Libra, Pegasus, Screw, Wyvang, Balro, Girago, Genbull, Burn, scythe, (duo), Beigirados, killerken, omega, meteo are the main use at tournament.

For energy ring we already know what's top tier yet. Chrystal wheels are other thing. lake of testing on that yet but personnaly with the results we got after a couple of tournament, we can say that: Shinobi, Samurai, Dark Knight are the most used.

the rest it's simple too just choose a good part knowed at this time like WD RF MF RB CS XF etc.. and the same thing for tracks.

In limited, i discover that we can do many sort of counter with many parts so how could we say this is top tier. like Libra 230D is supposed to be a top tier right?! well something near of that. but I can KO it with a simple combos out of nowhere in limited and this combo does nothing against any other combos... I think it will be easier to list up tier list with only tier part of the game format. it could be easier to do imo.
Oct. 18, 2014  6:37 PM
 
Time: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Limited-...pid1238192

Oh, by the way guys, mirror testing with Earth and Libra would still be greatly appreciated. Cake, have you always done your Earth vs. Libra testing with W145?

At this point, I have a strong suspicion that the controversy over whether or not Libra > Earth is solely due to mismatched heights in testing (there is little formal testing on Earth vs. Libra, and the informal testing is often reported without specifying the height matchup). If, as my testing and Cake's testing shows, Libra is superior to Earth on mid-height setups, but Earth is superior on low/high Tracks, the winner could depend completely on the height matchup.

If that's the case, the users in favor of Libra's addition could be testing exclusively with W145/BGrin, whereas the users in opposition could be testing exclusively with 85/90/TH220/230. That would explain why so many people get completely different results using the same mold of the part.
Oct. 18, 2014  7:18 PM
 
(Sep. 21, 2014  2:58 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Alright, got some Libra Stamina mirror-match comparisons here:

Libra 85WD vs. Earth Cancer 85WD
WD Bottoms in mint condition. Parts swapped every 5 rounds. Libra launched first on even launches, Earth launched first on odd.
Libra: wins, 0/10
Earth: wins, 10/10 (All OS)
Libra 85WD win rate: 0%

Note even close. Total blow-out. Earth won every round by a mile.

Libra W145WD vs. Earth Cancer W145WD
WD Bottoms in mint condition. Parts swapped every 5 rounds. Libra launched first on even launches, Earth launched first on odd.
Libra: wins, 11/20 (All OS)
Earth: wins, 9/20 (All OS)
Libra W145WD win rate: 55%

Now this was interesting. This was very, very close. The decisive match that put Libra at 55% came down to a single rotation.

Libra TH220D vs. Earth Cancer TH220D
Parts swapped every 5 rounds. Libra launched first on even launches, Earth launched first on odd.
Libra: wins, 9/20 (All OS)
Earth: wins, 11/20 (All OS)
Libra TH220D win rate: 45%

This was kind of close, but Earth's wins were definitely cleaner.

After doing these, I'm convinced that listing Libra as an LTSC or an HTSC is a bad idea. Mid-height Stamina, however, could be a different story. With all the success I'm hearing about with Libra B : D, mid-height setups could be the key (and possibly the cause of the controversy; if supporters of Libra are testing with B : D and W145, and those opposed are testing with 85 and TH220/230, that would explain why some people get great results with it, and some people get not-so-great results with it).

Now, I have no idea what this next test means; it completely blew my mind. If anybody thinks they can give an explanation for this, go ahead and give it a shot, because I'm flabbergasted:

Libra W145WD vs. Duo Cancer W145WD
WD Bottoms in mint condition. Parts swapped every 5 rounds. Libra launched first on even launches, Duo launched first on odd.
Libra: wins, 8/10 (2 KO, 6 OS)
Duo: wins, 2/10 (All OS)
Libra W145WD win rate: 80%

... I'm not even going to try to explain that.

From testing all over the site, it's always been Duo > Scythe > Burn > Earth, and now, from these tests, it would seem that Duo > Earth > Libra, and yet, at the same time, Libra > Duo.

It's like a = b = c ≠ a

:\

I think the difference between Duo and Libra should be there weight. My duo is really light and yes big stamina great distribution etc, but Libra has a better smash and heavier. so in battle Duo technically lose its speed more easily than Libra. I'm not a physician but logicaly it's probably what's happened
Oct. 19, 2014  1:08 AM
 
(Oct. 18, 2014  6:37 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Time: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Limited-...pid1238192

Oh, by the way guys, mirror testing with Earth and Libra would still be greatly appreciated. Cake, have you always done your Earth vs. Libra testing with W145?

At this point, I have a strong suspicion that the controversy over whether or not Libra > Earth is solely due to mismatched heights in testing (there is little formal testing on Earth vs. Libra, and the informal testing is often reported without specifying the height matchup). If, as my testing and Cake's testing shows, Libra is superior to Earth on mid-height setups, but Earth is superior on low/high Tracks, the winner could depend completely on the height matchup.

If that's the case, the users in favor of Libra's addition could be testing exclusively with W145/BGrin, whereas the users in opposition could be testing exclusively with 85/90/TH220/230. That would explain why so many people get completely different results using the same mold of the part.

I played around with some LTSC in the past, and Earth blew Libra away; though I usually would be using Libra on a mid-height setup anyways, so that's what I tested. I can do some official 85 tests tomorrow if you would like.

I'm also in favor of putting up Libra only on mid-height setups, as that seems to be what it does well. As a weird side note, has anyone tried it on 160PD? I'm not sure if it would actually be useful, but a slight height advantage over 145-height combos might allow it to destabilize/force smash them better.
Oct. 25, 2014  5:07 AM
 
Just posted a ton of Libra Stamina testing, and also a little bit of Duo vs. Earth: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-LTD-Libr...pid1242826

For me, it's safe to say right now that I don't think Libra should be on the tier list for Stamina.
Oct. 28, 2014  3:29 AM
 
Maby bandid wyvern b:d? For stamina

You guys could just take the standart format bey and change them a bit per exemple : flash belzeb ch125 r2f = screw belzeb ch125 r2f
Oct. 28, 2014  3:45 AM
 
That's pretty terrible, Wyvang has a lot of recoil and poor stamina.
Nov. 01, 2014  2:33 PM
 
So, most of this was mainly directed towards the Advanced Forum and its recent discussions, although due to not having access at posting there, I figured I may as well share the following here, as others who aren't Advanced like me may want to get in on the discussion. That in mind, get ready for a whole junk load of testings and opinions:

To begin with, I decided to do a couple of testings involving Attack variants against MF-H Scythe Cancer 230TB, and then compare the surprising outcomes. Just to note first however, Scythe will be launched first all matches, and
SELF KOs will be redone for more accurate results. Here they are!:

Shido Wrote:
ᴛᴇsᴛs ᴇᴠᴇʀʏᴡʜᴇʀᴇ (Click to View)

I was kind of surprised by a couple of these results; While I knew that both Lightning and Pegasis would kill Scythe, Phoenic Theif did surprisingly well, despite the amount of recoil it has. I myself was quite happy to see that Vulcan
did just as good as Beat Lynx and Scythe Pegasis, too! As for Samurai Wyvang however, it didn't do as good
as expected. Not too sure what it could have been, though.

On another note, just on the topic of Libra Stamina versus Earth Stamina, I was I was just watching BeyChannel's most recent video relating to A YEAR: The Month of Rebirth, a Limited Format event, and found 0:19 - 0:56 to be one of those matches, it was Libra B:D versus MF Earth Cancer D125EWD. Like a couple of TheBlackDragon's previous Libra versus Earth matches, Earth was the victor. This may have just been Priscient's extremely aggro Bearing Drive, though.

By the way, @[Leone19] 's Ronin Zirago 85RF should really be considered. That thing gave Leone19 himself, UltimateOrion
and I crazy good results. I'd say it could definitely be looked into by others and brought up in the Advanced Forum.

ThunderAquario Wrote:You guys could just take the standart format bey and change them a bit

That's practically what we did, haha. For instance, Duo B:D = Earth B:D.
Nov. 01, 2014  2:46 PM
 
Thanks for mentioning Ronin Zirago. The results were really good with what's been tested and I definitely think it needs to be looked into even more.
Nov. 01, 2014  4:33 PM
 
Vulcan results surpirse me, haha. I'll try to get some duplication of these tests soon.
Nov. 01, 2014  4:43 PM
 
If you really are wanting to test the potential of a certain attack custom against a bunch of others, you really can't do tests against something with TB and use that as significant info. It would need to be against a competitive defense type.
Nov. 01, 2014  5:41 PM
 
Echizen Wrote:Vulcan results surpirse me, haha.

I myself did those testings confident about Vulcan and its abilities. I'd say that if Screw can be on the Tier-list, Vulcan most definitely can, too! With competitive wheels like Scythe, Jade and Omega in our Limited metagame however, it may not always be the best of choices for Attack, though.

Tri Wrote:If you really are wanting to test the potential of a certain attack custom against a bunch of others, you can't do tests against something with TB and use that as significant info. It would need to be against a competitive defense type.

Solid point, you're definitely right. I'll try to redo as many as possible.
Nov. 01, 2014  6:29 PM
 
I've tested this combos and work well for me may be you can try this too.

MSF-H Samurai/Shinobi Zirago S130MF (chrystal up) (When battle against High combos like 230, you most put in Chrome up mode)

and

MSF-H Ronin Zirago S130MF (Chrystal up) this one has better result then the first combo cause it's a reverse spin direction and produce some Upper Attack(I could make the ennemies jump out walls to KO).

presently they could beat all my competitive combo for limited.
Nov. 01, 2014  11:07 PM
 
I'm in favor of Leone19's Dark Knight Zirago for attack, but I still think putting Screw & Vulcan on the list is seriously misleading. I wouldn't use either of them in competition & saying that they're Top Tier implies that they're on the same level as Lightning L Drago & Omega (as I've mentioned before), which they aren't.
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