I wouldn’t be against a ban on 230 in general just to open the meta for more options
EDIT: I no longer have these thoughts as 230 actually expands diversity.
EDIT: I no longer have these thoughts as 230 actually expands diversity.
MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion (v1.5 - 9/20/16)
I have been out of the loop for years, but I have been thinking a LOT of the state of Limited lately and how redundant it is to even have a top tier list for a format that is meant to open the door for an inclusive format for barely used parts in standard.
It is hard to bring updates to a format that is compeltely in the dark to a new generation, I know, but I think it is an interesting thing to consider that, yes, we tested the hell out of EVERYTHING for this format back in the day, but isn’t it interesting that after so many ban list updates, the same combinations continued to run the format? I suppose that it is just because so many parts are obsolete to some, but even then, it’s just something to consider. I feel as though Beyblade should have a bit more variety in EVERY format.
It is hard to bring updates to a format that is compeltely in the dark to a new generation, I know, but I think it is an interesting thing to consider that, yes, we tested the hell out of EVERYTHING for this format back in the day, but isn’t it interesting that after so many ban list updates, the same combinations continued to run the format? I suppose that it is just because so many parts are obsolete to some, but even then, it’s just something to consider. I feel as though Beyblade should have a bit more variety in EVERY format.
(Dec. 27, 2019 2:17 AM)Tri Wrote: I have been out of the loop for years, but I have been thinking a LOT of the state of Limited lately and how redundant it is to even have a top tier list for a format that is meant to open the door for an inclusive format for barely used parts in standard.I always think the same thing. The issue is that Metal Fight is fairly old now so people just continue using the combos that work. I’ve said this before that I wouldn’t mind seeing 230 spin tracks being banned as it would mix things up a little more. People don’t want gravity banned either, and while I don’t think It’s overpowered I do think it it dominates the meta in a way. Gravity F230CF, gravity GB145CF, gravity_rf, even gravity combos on MF. I’m not extremely knowledgeable on competitive, but I’ve been very obsessed lately and this is just what I’ve noticed.
It is hard to bring updates to a format that is compeltely in the dark to a new generation, I know, but I think it is an interesting thing to consider that, yes, we tested the hell out of EVERYTHING for this format back in the day, but isn’t it interesting that after so many ban list updates, the same combinations continued to run the format? I suppose that it is just because so many parts are obsolete to some, but even then, it’s just something to consider. I feel as though Beyblade should have a bit more variety in EVERY format.
EDIT: Disregard everything I said here. I knew nothing.
I don't think Dark Knight needs to be banned. The supposed problems with it are that:
1) It is capable of KOing beyblades of all heights. I don't see a problem with this - the same can be said for other top tier attack wheels on H145 or CH120, which are also very capable of taking out both the super tall combos (Flame 230CS and its variants) as well as low track stamina.
2) It is capable of outspinning some defense types if it can't KO them. This is, again, behavior present in other wheels, namely Lightning L Drago and Gravity Perseus, both of which possess the ability to equalize and outspin the majority right spin dedicated defense. It also shares the same problems as them, being that it needs to be on either a wider plastic flat or rubber ball to stand any real chance at outspinning top tier defense types, and it has additional caveat that unsynchromed zero-G beys are inherently unbalanced.
3) It is capable of being paired with any chrome wheel. Come on, really? Any chrome wheel it can be paired with comes with disadvantages. Dark Knight customs have a very difficult time doing 1 and 2 at the same time without becoming outclassed by more specialized builds with the same answer to both type. Also - I would like to point out that the same goes for literally every other crystal wheel in that they can be paired with every chrome wheel.
Generally speaking - I agree that it is versatile, but I don't understand the claim that it shuts out more specialized attack types. It doesn't outclass all attackers at once in all categories - it competes in all of them, but on the customs where it competes in one category, it does not compete in another. For example, a custom like Dark Knight Pegasus H145RF would be incredibly potent as an attack combo, but could it equalize, and would it necessarily do better than LLD in the same role? It could put up comparable results, but the increased stamina of LLD over the DK combo might have it winning some matchups DK would lose, as well as the inverse. Similarly, while something like Dark Knight Killerken W105RB would be capable of equalizing versus dedicated defense combos, it would have a much worse matchup versus same height or lower height combos, compared to other attackers that have better same matchups versus same height or lower height opponents, it would lag behind in terms of ability to get KOs.
There's also the matter of other parts that have similar versatility - Gravity is a prominent example that comes to mind. It is able to compete as an attacker, an equalizer, and a staller, depending on how it is set up, but it remains unbanned, despite competing strongly in just as many categories as Dark Knight does. I think it'd be worth running events with Dark Knight again, to see whether it decreased the use of other attack wheels simply by being another strong option, or whether it was actually a preferential option compared to the others. After all, Gravity is allowed, and almost certainly decreases the use of similar equalization combos on Meteo, such as Meteo L Drago CH120CF/GCF/XF or Meteo L Drago F230CF/GCF, as it has higher aggression and the ability to switch spin directions - which is incredibly versatile even without the switching, as you can take the same wheel into either spin direction against an opponent you know you will likely need a specific direction for.
tldr; do you believe in gravity?
Some testing results, done with single beylaunchers and a b-09:
Semi-Worn RF testing: MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105RF vs Flame Gemios 230CS, Dark Knight launched second:
Flame Gemios 230CS: 13 wins (12 OS, 1KO)
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105RF: 7 wins (7 KO)
Dark Knight Win Rate: 35%
Fresh R2F testing: MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105R2F vs Flame Gemios 230CS, Dark Knight launched second:
Flame Gemios 230CS: 1 wins (1KO)
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105R2F: 19 wins (19KO)
Dark Knight Win Rate: 95%
A fresher rubber flat enables much of Dark Knight's "it can get KOs against tall combos from low tracks" shenanigans. It struggled to pull anything like this off at 105 height on either of my partially worn down RF tips or my partially worn down R2F tips, and I stopped after the 20 rounds with the fresh one to preserve it.
vs Earth Leone1 RS testing: MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105RF vs MF-H Earth 90RS, Dark Knight launched second
MF-H Earth Leone1 90RS: 9 wins (7OS, 2KO)
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105RF: 1 win (1KO)
Dark Knight Win Rate: 10%
vs Earth Leone1 CS testing: MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105RF vs MF-H Earth 90CS, Dark Knight launched second
MF-H Earth Leone1 90CS: 8 wins (6OS, 2KO)
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105RF: 2 wins (2KO)
Dark Knight Win Rate: 20%
vs Earth Leone1 RS, swapping to XF: MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105XF vs MF-H Earth 90RS, Dark Knight second
MF-H Earth Leone1 90RS: 0 wins
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105XF: 10 wins (10OS)
Dark Knight Win Rate: 100%
vs Earth Leone1 CS testing, swapping to XF: MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105XF vs MF-H Earth 90CS, Dark Knight launched second
MF-H Earth Leone1 90CS: 8 wins (8OS)
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105XF: 12 wins (12OS)
5 draws redone
Dark Knight Win Rate: 60%
vs Flame 230CS testing, swapping to XF, MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105XF vs Flame Gemios 230CS, Dark Knight launched second
Flame Gemios 230CS: 20 wins (20OS)
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105XF: 0 wins
Dark Knight Win Rate: 0%
I assumed the slight height difference from RF to RB would have similar effects on its ability to reach up high as from RF to XF, same with the LAD.
1) It is capable of KOing beyblades of all heights. I don't see a problem with this - the same can be said for other top tier attack wheels on H145 or CH120, which are also very capable of taking out both the super tall combos (Flame 230CS and its variants) as well as low track stamina.
2) It is capable of outspinning some defense types if it can't KO them. This is, again, behavior present in other wheels, namely Lightning L Drago and Gravity Perseus, both of which possess the ability to equalize and outspin the majority right spin dedicated defense. It also shares the same problems as them, being that it needs to be on either a wider plastic flat or rubber ball to stand any real chance at outspinning top tier defense types, and it has additional caveat that unsynchromed zero-G beys are inherently unbalanced.
3) It is capable of being paired with any chrome wheel. Come on, really? Any chrome wheel it can be paired with comes with disadvantages. Dark Knight customs have a very difficult time doing 1 and 2 at the same time without becoming outclassed by more specialized builds with the same answer to both type. Also - I would like to point out that the same goes for literally every other crystal wheel in that they can be paired with every chrome wheel.
Generally speaking - I agree that it is versatile, but I don't understand the claim that it shuts out more specialized attack types. It doesn't outclass all attackers at once in all categories - it competes in all of them, but on the customs where it competes in one category, it does not compete in another. For example, a custom like Dark Knight Pegasus H145RF would be incredibly potent as an attack combo, but could it equalize, and would it necessarily do better than LLD in the same role? It could put up comparable results, but the increased stamina of LLD over the DK combo might have it winning some matchups DK would lose, as well as the inverse. Similarly, while something like Dark Knight Killerken W105RB would be capable of equalizing versus dedicated defense combos, it would have a much worse matchup versus same height or lower height combos, compared to other attackers that have better same matchups versus same height or lower height opponents, it would lag behind in terms of ability to get KOs.
There's also the matter of other parts that have similar versatility - Gravity is a prominent example that comes to mind. It is able to compete as an attacker, an equalizer, and a staller, depending on how it is set up, but it remains unbanned, despite competing strongly in just as many categories as Dark Knight does. I think it'd be worth running events with Dark Knight again, to see whether it decreased the use of other attack wheels simply by being another strong option, or whether it was actually a preferential option compared to the others. After all, Gravity is allowed, and almost certainly decreases the use of similar equalization combos on Meteo, such as Meteo L Drago CH120CF/GCF/XF or Meteo L Drago F230CF/GCF, as it has higher aggression and the ability to switch spin directions - which is incredibly versatile even without the switching, as you can take the same wheel into either spin direction against an opponent you know you will likely need a specific direction for.
tldr; do you believe in gravity?
Some testing results, done with single beylaunchers and a b-09:
Semi-Worn RF testing: MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105RF vs Flame Gemios 230CS, Dark Knight launched second:
Flame Gemios 230CS: 13 wins (12 OS, 1KO)
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105RF: 7 wins (7 KO)
Dark Knight Win Rate: 35%
Fresh R2F testing: MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105R2F vs Flame Gemios 230CS, Dark Knight launched second:
Flame Gemios 230CS: 1 wins (1KO)
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105R2F: 19 wins (19KO)
Dark Knight Win Rate: 95%
A fresher rubber flat enables much of Dark Knight's "it can get KOs against tall combos from low tracks" shenanigans. It struggled to pull anything like this off at 105 height on either of my partially worn down RF tips or my partially worn down R2F tips, and I stopped after the 20 rounds with the fresh one to preserve it.
vs Earth Leone1 RS testing: MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105RF vs MF-H Earth 90RS, Dark Knight launched second
MF-H Earth Leone1 90RS: 9 wins (7OS, 2KO)
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105RF: 1 win (1KO)
Dark Knight Win Rate: 10%
vs Earth Leone1 CS testing: MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105RF vs MF-H Earth 90CS, Dark Knight launched second
MF-H Earth Leone1 90CS: 8 wins (6OS, 2KO)
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105RF: 2 wins (2KO)
Dark Knight Win Rate: 20%
vs Earth Leone1 RS, swapping to XF: MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105XF vs MF-H Earth 90RS, Dark Knight second
MF-H Earth Leone1 90RS: 0 wins
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105XF: 10 wins (10OS)
Dark Knight Win Rate: 100%
vs Earth Leone1 CS testing, swapping to XF: MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105XF vs MF-H Earth 90CS, Dark Knight launched second
MF-H Earth Leone1 90CS: 8 wins (8OS)
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105XF: 12 wins (12OS)
5 draws redone
Dark Knight Win Rate: 60%
vs Flame 230CS testing, swapping to XF, MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105XF vs Flame Gemios 230CS, Dark Knight launched second
Flame Gemios 230CS: 20 wins (20OS)
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105XF: 0 wins
Dark Knight Win Rate: 0%
I assumed the slight height difference from RF to RB would have similar effects on its ability to reach up high as from RF to XF, same with the LAD.
(Jun. 10, 2022 5:13 AM)Abellia Wrote: I don't think Dark Knight needs to be banned. The supposed problems with it are that:
1) It is capable of KOing beyblades of all heights. I don't see a problem with this - the same can be said for other top tier attack wheels on H145 or CH120, which are also very capable of taking out both the super tall combos (Flame 230CS and its variants) as well as low track stamina.
2) It is capable of outspinning some defense types if it can't KO them. This is, again, behavior present in other wheels, namely Lightning L Drago and Gravity Perseus, both of which possess the ability to equalize and outspin the majority right spin dedicated defense. It also shares the same problems as them, being that it needs to be on either a wider plastic flat or rubber ball to stand any real chance at outspinning top tier defense types, and it has additional caveat that unsynchromed zero-G beys are inherently unbalanced.
3) It is capable of being paired with any chrome wheel. Come on, really? Any chrome wheel it can be paired with comes with disadvantages. Dark Knight customs have a very difficult time doing 1 and 2 at the same time without becoming outclassed by more specialized builds with the same answer to both type. Also - I would like to point out that the same goes for literally every other crystal wheel in that they can be paired with every chrome wheel.
Generally speaking - I agree that it is versatile, but I don't understand the claim that it shuts out more specialized attack types. It doesn't outclass all attackers at once in all categories - it competes in all of them, but on the customs where it competes in one category, it does not compete in another. For example, a custom like Dark Knight Pegasus H145RF would be incredibly potent as an attack combo, but could it equalize, and would it necessarily do better than LLD in the same role? It could put up comparable results, but the increased stamina of LLD over the DK combo might have it winning some matchups DK would lose, as well as the inverse. Similarly, while something like Dark Knight Killerken W105RB would be capable of equalizing versus dedicated defense combos, it would have a much worse matchup versus same height or lower height combos, compared to other attackers that have better same matchups versus same height or lower height opponents, it would lag behind in terms of ability to get KOs.
There's also the matter of other parts that have similar versatility - Gravity is a prominent example that comes to mind. It is able to compete as an attacker, an equalizer, and a staller, depending on how it is set up, but it remains unbanned, despite competing strongly in just as many categories as Dark Knight does. I think it'd be worth running events with Dark Knight again, to see whether it decreased the use of other attack wheels simply by being another strong option, or whether it was actually a preferential option compared to the others. After all, Gravity is allowed, and almost certainly decreases the use of similar equalization combos on Meteo, such as Meteo L Drago CH120CF/GCF/XF or Meteo L Drago F230CF/GCF, as it has higher aggression and the ability to switch spin directions - which is incredibly versatile even without the switching, as you can take the same wheel into either spin direction against an opponent you know you will likely need a specific direction for.
tldr; do you believe in gravity?
Some testing results, done with single beylaunchers and a b-09:
Semi-Worn RF testing: MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105RF vs Flame Gemios 230CS, Dark Knight launched second:
Flame Gemios 230CS: 13 wins (12 OS, 1KO)
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105RF: 7 wins (7 KO)
Dark Knight Win Rate: 35%
Fresh R2F testing: MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105R2F vs Flame Gemios 230CS, Dark Knight launched second:
Flame Gemios 230CS: 1 wins (1KO)
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105R2F: 19 wins (19KO)
Dark Knight Win Rate: 95%
A fresher rubber flat enables much of Dark Knight's "it can get KOs against tall combos from low tracks" shenanigans. It struggled to pull anything like this off at 105 height on either of my partially worn down RF tips or my partially worn down R2F tips, and I stopped after the 20 rounds with the fresh one to preserve it.
vs Earth RS testing: MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105RF vs MF-H Earth 90RS, Dark Knight launched second
MF-H Earth 90RS: 9 wins (7OS, 2KO)
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105RF: 1 win (1KO)
Dark Knight Win Rate: 10%
vs Earth CS testing: MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105RF vs MF-H Earth 90CS, Dark Knight launched second
MF-H Earth 90CS: 8 wins (6OS, 2KO)
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105RF: 2 wins (2KO)
Dark Knight Win Rate: 20%
vs Earth RS, swapping to XF: MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105XF vs MF-H Earth 90RS, Dark Knight second
MF-H Earth 90RS: 0 wins
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105XF: 10 wins (10OS)
Dark Knight Win Rate: 100%
vs Earth CS testing, swapping to XF: MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105XF vs MF-H Earth 90CS, Dark Knight launched second
MF-H Earth 90CS: 8 wins (8OS)
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105XF: 12 wins (12OS)
5 draws redone
Dark Knight Win Rate: 60%
vs Flame 230CS testing, swapping to XF, MSF-H Dark Knight Girago DF105XF vs Flame Gemios 230CS, Dark Knight launched second
Flame Gemios 230CS: 20 wins (20OS)
MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal Up] DF105XF: 0 wins
Dark Knight Win Rate: 0%
I assumed the slight height difference from RF to RB would have similar effects on its ability to reach up high as from RF to XF, same with the LAD.
exactly, i dont see the reason why this should be banned now.