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MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion (v1.5 - 9/20/16)

Apr. 07, 2015  3:41 AM
 
Woah, dem RS results.

Is it really that good? I was always under the impression that it was near the power level of RDF (or at least, that's what I've always heard). Like Wombat said, it's Stamina is so awful and it wears so fast that I've never really used it that much, and the times I have tested were probabl only in standard. I'm still short on time, but if I have the opportunity I'll try to get some testing done over the next few days.

(Apr. 07, 2015  1:27 AM)Wombat Wrote: On a semi-related note, what are your opinions on bringing Gravity back? I know I was one of the main people pushing for it to be banned about a year ago but maybe the issue was just being blown out of proportion. I've been playing around with Gravity F230GCF now that I have a TT orange F230, and it really isn't as great as I imagined it would be.

I would actually be a huge proponent of bringing it back; I was originally opposed to its ban (most of my position on the topic was explained in this post), and I'd like to see it back again.

I was originally very concerned about Gravity F230CF/GCF, but since then we've discovered that Lightning MTAC and Burn Attack/Stamina hybrids can pretty much totally destroy it (if we keep Omega, that can whip it too). I wouldn't have any issues with seeing it come back.

Although, I think it would be wise to implement a partial ban on spin direction, limiting the user to only one spin direction per match. I don't think that the dual rotation function is particularly overpowered, but its versatility does make it a far better option than, say, Meteo, which has no backup plan to resort to if it ends up in a matchup disfavorable to its spin direction. Just a suggestion for a way we could keep it under control if it becomes a threat to game balance.
Apr. 08, 2015  12:02 AM
 
Alongside RS's lack of stamina and aggression what we should seriously focus on is the defense - what it's meant for.

Maybe the solution is maybe just simply ban Omega if TheBlackDragon is having success with it against defense. It also, again, is the heaviest of the attack wheels, which is also an advantage.
Apr. 08, 2015  3:09 AM
 
I managed to do some testing yesterday; I had to cut it to 10 rounds each because my parents made me go to bed (I still have lacrosse/school work to do and only got to this by about midnight).

MF-H Omega (Assault) Horuseus 100R2F vs. MF-H Earth Cancer 90RS
Horuseus: 3 wins (1 KO, 2 OS)
Cancer: 7 wins (all OS)
3 ties redone
Horuseus win rate: 30%
This was using the Sliding Shoot to attack head-on. All of the ties were double OS. One of Omega's OS was from a powerful hit that Earth scraped off the wall save, the other was a natural OS.

MF-H Omega (Assault) Horuseus 100R2F vs. MF-H Earth Cancer 90RS
Horuseus: 5 wins (all OS)
Cancer: 5 wins (all OS)
3 ties redone
Horuseus win rate: 50%
This was using Tornado Stalling. All of the ties were double OS.

MF-H Omega (Assault) Horuseus 100R2F vs. MF-H Earth Cancer 90RSF
Horuseus: 6 wins (5 KO, 1 OS)
Cancer: 4 wins (1 KO, 3 OS)
1 tie redone
Horuseus win rate: 60%
Omega was using the Sliding Shoot, and RSF was stationary at the beginning of the match. Pretty sure the tie was a double OS.

MSF-H Dark Knight Zirago (Crystal Up) 85RF vs. MF-H Earth Cancer 90RS
Zirago: 6 wins (2 KO, 4 OS)
Cancer: 4 wins (all OS)
2 ties redone
Zirago win rate: 60%
Zirago was using the Sliding Shoot. Both of the ties were double OS.

As you may or may not know, I'm not the best with Attack types so more experienced Bladers will probably get more KOs. From the results I got it seems like you have about a 50/50 chance of beating RS with Right Spin Attack if you Tornado Stall. I didn't get a chance to do Left Spin Tornado Stall but I bet it would have a positive win rate as well.
Apr. 08, 2015  9:01 PM
 
Nice testing, Wombat. Seeing how Defense should generally counter Attack and seeing how well both Ronin Zirago and Omega did against it, I think unbanning RS (probably after AN) would be interesting.
Apr. 08, 2015  11:05 PM
 
Nice results Wombat. Cool to see RSF and RS practically on par with each other.
Apr. 09, 2015  2:21 AM
 
Even despite the OS's RF and R2F got (which made the outcome look better on Attack's part) like I mentioned previously, let's consider RS's defense. We see that when against RS, not many wins by KO occurred; it really didn't get many. When you tested Omega Horuseus 100R2F against MF-H Earth Cancer 90RS and RSF, Wombat, more KO's were made out against RSF, whereas it got OS against RS.

So yeah, not too sure what to say, though consider my pros and the major con to it. Again - RS has a horrible amount of stamina and unlike RSF and RB, it can't be aggressive and have a fairly good amount of stamina left which is a good side, though because of it's grip to the stadium, does make it harder for attack to KO defense.

Even so, however, I do appreciate those tests Wombat, thank you for them. Smile
Apr. 10, 2015  5:06 PM
 
I think Gravity and RS should be unbanned because they aren't unbeatable.
Apr. 21, 2015  10:56 PM
 
Wow, sorry for the slight necro but had no idea there was a banlist like this. Does this mean I can't use Vari Ares in future tournaments?

I'm actually quite happy with the changes tbh, gives me reason to use the clear wheels in Zero-G and try combos which aren't insanely OP, which is partly why I lost interest in beyblade.

I'm sure if there was ever a power creep in Burst the same thing will happen right?
Apr. 21, 2015  11:11 PM
 
For Limited tournament play, you can't use any kind of 4D metal wheel (except Omega and Jade). However, in Zero-G/Standard you can definitely use any kind of synchromes and 4D wheels.
Apr. 22, 2015  12:32 AM
 
(Apr. 10, 2015  5:06 PM)UltimateOrion Wrote: I think Gravity and RS should be unbanned because they aren't unbeatable.
Yeah, I agree, and RS doesn't have that much stamina anyway, But I disagree about Gravity being unbanned. Gravity Perseus is really OP, considering it can spin left or right. It can be a "spinstealer," and it is heavier than Meteo L-Drago, which doesn't pose a threat, because its really light. Gravity though, is much heavier, and can most likely defeat other beys with left spin, but right spin isn't so bad.
Apr. 22, 2015  2:23 AM
 
(Apr. 10, 2015  5:06 PM)UltimateOrion Wrote: I think Gravity and RS should be unbanned because they aren't unbeatable.

Just because a combo or part isn't unbeatable doesn't necessarily mean it isn't strong or overpowered. Back near the start of Zero-G, when Flash Orion W145MF could beat nearly everything in the meta with incredible consistency, I lost a battle to (using that combo), and consequently was knocked out of a tournament by...

Hell Lacerta AD145WD.

Does this mean that Flash W145MF wasn't almost game-breakingly strong at the time? Is Hell suddenly a viable wheel in a post-4D meta as a "counter" to Flash? Of course not; this was a rare event that, although it went against what you would expect from a top-tier combo, was still technically possible. No combo is unbeatable, and no part has ever been strong enough to completely dominate all other parts. However, if one part is considerably stronger than any other option, and is strong enough that it imbalances the metagame and the general flow of play, then there is a problem. A part doesn't have to completely ruin the game to deserve a ban. The goal of the banlist is to keep the game interesting and promote combo diversity. If Limited turns into something like "[insert part] combos" and "things that beat [insert part]", you have a problem.
Apr. 22, 2015  5:08 PM
 
Went ahead and did a couple of testings with Omega and RS defense.

Spoiler (Click to View)

Interesting results I got here. RS stopped Omega's success, but at the same time, was KO'ed quite frequently. I do think the results could have possibly went the other way around. The results with Pegasis were interesting, too. Against R145RSF, it had issues whereas it got practically the same results against RS, which would be good in this case. We also see that Omega, against RSF, clearly did better.

Right now, I feel as we should probably ban Omega and definitely keep an unban for RS into consideration. Like mentioned - all after Anime North. And as for Gravity, I don't feel it's such a threat on F230, but I do feel it'd be a tad more-weighted version of Lightning for left-spin.
Apr. 28, 2015  2:10 PM
 
i think this is going to make this a lot more fair
May. 04, 2015  12:32 PM
 
So, @[Kei], I don't recall hearing an opinion from you on a ban for Omega. What do you think we should do about it?

Personally, I feel as RS defense may stop a bit of its success, but on the other hand, for one, it has the upper-hand against like all attack wheels. From what we've seen yesterday, there were a lot of Omega versus Lightning matches, where Omega lost only one of those few where Blader op's Lightning L-Drago got some sort of lucky KO off of LMAO's Omega. The rest of LMAO's losses that match, if I remember correctly, were lost by self-KO. It even has some success against RSF and RB-based defense, too.
May. 04, 2015  7:58 PM
 
The reason I didn't say anything at the tournament yesterday when everyone was asking me was because my answer was: "Limited Banlist v1.3" and the RS unban ... which I didn't post until I got home haha.

Omega is certainly potentially bannable, but for now we should ride out this new Limited Banlist and see what effect RS has on things. For v1.4 we can consider banning Omega, among any other changes, if necessary.
May. 05, 2015  1:05 AM
 
I wouldn't ban omega because then lightning would be the top attack wheel, and the only counter attack wheel is jade, so guy's, just give omega a chance, and let's just see how it does at AN and then we can decide from thereTongue_out
May. 05, 2015  1:41 AM
 
(May. 05, 2015  1:05 AM)ULTIMATE BLAZE Wrote: I wouldn't ban omega because then lightning would be the top attack wheel, and the only counter attack wheel is jade, so guy's, just give omega a chance, and let's just see how it does at AN and then we can decide from thereTongue_out

The difference about Omega and Lightning is that unlike Lightning, Omega has success against like all attack wheels, whereas Lightning can still be countered. In my opinion, because of Dark Knight Girago LTAC being able of late-game KO's, it can KO, if not OS, Lightning in a match between them.

But true; let's see how it does comes Anime North. Even more interestingly, if RS defense can make Omega's success against defense harder.
May. 05, 2015  2:00 AM
 
How about banning earth because I know it's light but it's really smooth and since the heavy attackers and smash attackers are banned
May. 05, 2015  8:32 PM
 
it could become OP... eventually...?;(
also is bakushin considered 4D because it was released in the metal fury era
May. 06, 2015  1:21 AM
 
First of all, don't double post(just edit your post). Anyway, Earth is NOT OP, considering MF is a aggressive attacker, especially when put with Omega. Omega 105 MF can easily KO defenders. Second, you really need good defense, or there would not be any defense... Earth, like you said is light, and most hasbro metal fury beys are actually heavier, so banning Earth would be no use anyway.
May. 06, 2015  1:27 AM
 
Good point I never thought about that
May. 06, 2015  1:44 AM
 
(May. 05, 2015  8:32 PM)raiyanblader Wrote: also is bakushin considered 4D because it was released in the metal fury era

No, Bakushin was originally released in the first season of Metal Fight Beyblade with Takara-Tomy's Bakushin Susanow 105F. You can read more about it on Beywiki: http://wiki.worldbeyblade.org/index.php?...sanow_105F
May. 06, 2015  1:49 AM
 
Oh yeah now I remember! But isn't bakushin susanow released in the metal master video game?
May. 06, 2015  1:52 AM
 
(May. 05, 2015  1:41 AM)Mitsukuni Wrote:
(May. 05, 2015  1:05 AM)ULTIMATE BLAZE Wrote: I wouldn't ban omega because then lightning would be the top attack wheel, and the only counter attack wheel is jade, so guy's, just give omega a chance, and let's just see how it does at AN and then we can decide from thereTongue_out

The difference about Omega and Lightning is that unlike Lightning, Omega has success against like all attack wheels, whereas Lightning can still be countered. In my opinion, because of Dark Knight Girago LTAC being able of late-game KO's, it can KO, if not OS, Lightning in a match between them.

But true; let's see how it does comes Anime North. Even more interestingly, if RS defense can make Omega's success against defense harder.

From what we've seen at our tournaments, Omega basically beats everything tbh, but the RS unban will change that for sure. Now we can have some serious defence set ups unlike just the usual Libra defender. Before the RS unban, Omega was able to take out almost anything, it's kind of scary. Hopefully we see the change when we get some good Defence combinations like Libra 230RS going!
May. 06, 2015  1:55 AM
 
(May. 06, 2015  1:49 AM)raiyanblader Wrote: Oh yeah now I remember! But isn't bakushin susanow released in the metal master video game?

That's just one of the several ways it was released. The rest are mentioned in the Beywiki article I linked above.

If you have anymore general questions related to Beyblade and not specifically the Limited format ban list, though, try asking them in the "Ask a question, get an answer! #2" thread in the Beyblade General Forum. We've been derailing this topic with our current discussion. Wink
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