Left spin is a big part in a metagame, so I don't understand banning it.
MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion (v1.5 - 9/20/16)
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I would definitely not recommend banning all left-spin Wheels; takes much too much away from the variety of the game, if you ask me personally. I've never seen any game balance issues come out of Lightning attackers, and they're very entertaining to use/play against. Variares is an absolute piece of garbage in pretty much every respect (horrible spin-stealing capabilities as well as terrible Attack), and banning meteo would just hurt the versatility of the Stamina meta. As for Dark Knight, I've seen it in action using pretty much every Chrome Wheel it's applicable with and it doesn't scare me that much (it's definitely good - one of the best attackers out there, probably, but it's actually kind of difficult to use, and its volatility makes it kind of a risky option on top of that).
Here's the problem with unbanning RS; the goal of limited is to maintain a balance of power between parts, not between beyblade types (that is obviously a fundamental element of the format, but only because it contributes to the balance of power between parts). If we unban RS, yes, it will bolster Defense types collectively, but it will seriously hurt the viability of RSF and RB. Then all you've done is decrease the number of viable Defensive parts even further.
That said, I would say the solution to this problem is to ban Omega. In my honest opinion, Omega is just too overpowered - it hits too hard too consistently. It can pretty much absolutely shred any competitive Defense custom in the format with little difficulty. Even if Defense wasn't in a precarious situation, I would suggest we ban it anyway, just because it's so much better than anything else we have and has the potential to seriously hurt the viability of other Attack Wheels.
I don't have any time to do formal testing (haven't for a long while now), but I'm speaking from extensive past informal testing and tournament experience, and I'm fairly confident banning the thing would do the format good.
Here's the problem with unbanning RS; the goal of limited is to maintain a balance of power between parts, not between beyblade types (that is obviously a fundamental element of the format, but only because it contributes to the balance of power between parts). If we unban RS, yes, it will bolster Defense types collectively, but it will seriously hurt the viability of RSF and RB. Then all you've done is decrease the number of viable Defensive parts even further.
That said, I would say the solution to this problem is to ban Omega. In my honest opinion, Omega is just too overpowered - it hits too hard too consistently. It can pretty much absolutely shred any competitive Defense custom in the format with little difficulty. Even if Defense wasn't in a precarious situation, I would suggest we ban it anyway, just because it's so much better than anything else we have and has the potential to seriously hurt the viability of other Attack Wheels.
I don't have any time to do formal testing (haven't for a long while now), but I'm speaking from extensive past informal testing and tournament experience, and I'm fairly confident banning the thing would do the format good.
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TheBlackDragon Wrote:I would say the solution to this problem is to ban Omega. In my honest opinion, Omega is just too overpowered - it hits too hard too consistently. It can pretty much absolutely shred any competitive Defense custom in the format with little difficulty. Even if Defense wasn't in a precarious situation, I would suggest we ban it anyway, just because it's so much better than anything else we have and has the potential to seriously hurt the viability of other Attack Wheels.
I myself wouldn't ban Omega. I don't really get you saying how it can shred defense combination, too. Can you link me to some tests where it ever did so? From my experience, Omega is not able to KO LTDCs - Kei and I noticed the obvious in a tournament match - as well as HTDCs.
In my opinion, it would deserve just as much a banning as left-spin attack would. Here's my perspective:
Omega has the upper-hand over other attack options, kills stamina, has very little success against defense, gets KOs off of most F230 variant (would probably have more issues against it placed with Libra), and has some issues against Libra RF (not too sure, however, about it and Scythe RF, seeing as another match between Kei and I with Omega and a Scythe CH120RF was really close, it could have gone the other way around).
Left-spin attack kills stamina, has issues against LTDCs but are for the most part successful against MTDC and HTDC, gets KO off of most F230 variant, and has issues against Libra RF whereas it's a bit more successful Scythe RF.
Still- wouldn't ban either.
EDIT: Sorry if I came off sounding rude, TheBlackDragon.
Especially going back to what I saw at GBT2, I really don't feel Omega needs a ban.
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I'd like to give some input here. The basis to my arguement is why ban anything at all? I have two insights I wish to share:
-I looked through the Winning Combinations and it took me four pages to find an Omega combo used and it was used by you, TheBlackDragon. And you used it in October of last year... Omega hasn't shown competitive potential in 7 months.
-As Kai-V always says an attack metagame is a healthy metagame. There's always a certain risk present when using attack types in tournaments.
-I looked through the Winning Combinations and it took me four pages to find an Omega combo used and it was used by you, TheBlackDragon. And you used it in October of last year... Omega hasn't shown competitive potential in 7 months.
-As Kai-V always says an attack metagame is a healthy metagame. There's always a certain risk present when using attack types in tournaments.
May I mention that here in Toronto, Omega has little to no use.
Throughout the past few Limited events, I've used it very few times. I used it once to beat OldSchool's L-Drago Guardian F230GCF setup, and lost against Kei's Libra LTDC and a Scythe CH120RF combo, but that's like all I remember seeing of it in tournaments besides GBT2 whereas in this case it had some but very little. And yes, while I know that I can't base Omega's potential off of its tournament use, seeing as it's not a threat in them, that's another reason as to why it shouldn't be banned.
I still think it definitely deserves to stay unbanned, but it'd be interesting to see it's use at the TBR Qualifiers and Anime North tournaments. That's when we should determine or whether not we should.
Throughout the past few Limited events, I've used it very few times. I used it once to beat OldSchool's L-Drago Guardian F230GCF setup, and lost against Kei's Libra LTDC and a Scythe CH120RF combo, but that's like all I remember seeing of it in tournaments besides GBT2 whereas in this case it had some but very little. And yes, while I know that I can't base Omega's potential off of its tournament use, seeing as it's not a threat in them, that's another reason as to why it shouldn't be banned.
I still think it definitely deserves to stay unbanned, but it'd be interesting to see it's use at the TBR Qualifiers and Anime North tournaments. That's when we should determine or whether not we should.
(Apr. 04, 2015 6:15 PM)Honey Wrote: May I mention that here in Toronto, Omega has little to no use.
Throughout the past few Limited events, I've used it very few times. I used it once to beat OldSchool's L-Drago Guardian F230GCF setup, and lost against Kei's Libra LTDC and a Scythe CH120RF combo, but that's like all I remember seeing of it in tournaments besides GBT2 whereas in this case it had some but very little. And yes, while I know that I can't base Omega's potential off of its tournament use, seeing as it's not a threat in them, that's another reason as to why it shouldn't be banned.
I still think it definitely deserves to stay unbanned, but it'd be interesting to see it's use at the TBR Qualifiers and Anime North tournaments. That's when we should determine or whether not we should.
I can't say much in this case as I've never attended any events, and I don't even own an Omega, but that thing is expensive. Even the Hasbro ones go for $20-30 USD online and when you pay that much for a bey that has a painted wheel it becomes a little hard to justify actually using it. And due to the price I doubt many people would buy two (One for collections, one for active use).
I haven't been to any stores in a while other than my local grocer, so I don't know if Beyblades are event being sold in North America anymore, but if somebody would actually use it competitively it would probably be after randomly finding it as a Legends pack in Walmart or something. Even then, it's still iffy. It all comes down to a problem of collecting.
I'm honestly not completely sure why Omega hasn't seen all that much tournament use, seeing as most people own it as far as I can tell, but it definitely doesn't have any trouble against LTDC. Here are my tests, and here are Tri's. I don't think there are any on the site that suggest otherwise.
Just to note something, those tests were done using Pegasis III and 85; the custom is far more potent using Horuseus and 100 against all heights.
It doesn't do poorly against LTDC by any stretch (it's possible you could lose in a tournament, obviously, since your launch is an issue there, but overall it's definitely no weaker against LTDC than any other Attack custom I've ever seen), it definitely shreds F230 customs (if you're using Horusues and 100 - if you're using like Omega Pisces 85R2F, it's not gonna work as well), and Libra 85RF beats just about every Attack custom out there anyway.
Also, I would like to note that the custom must use MF-H, Horuseus, and 100, and it must be used in assault mode. Without those parts, the custom's performance decreases pretty significantly. The part selection is extremely, extremely important (not to use the "you didn't do it right" argument, but with this particular custom it really does matter a lot).
Just for verification, since our tournament in October that Echizen mentioned, there have been 8 Limited format tournaments, only 6 of which competitive Attack was used in. Omega is present in the winning combos for 3 of them (not sure how you missed those). Counting the total number of Attack combinations used, Omega showed up 4 times; Lightning only showed up twice (well, 3 times if you count when Kei used it with RB, but that technically isn't competitive Attack, and in that case I think it would be fair to include the other 3 instances where Omega appeared using metal Flat and WSF).
I'm not going to make the argument that Omega is becoming a problem in competition, but if it's showing up twice as often as Lightning, I don't see how you could argue that it isn't being used.
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF vs. MF-H Libra 85RB
Libra launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Omega: wins, 4/10 (All KO)
Libra: wins, 6/10 (1 KO, 5 OS)
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF win rate: 40%
1 Tie redone
Didn't do as well as I expected; I did see a lot of wall saves, though.
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF vs. MF-H Libra 85RB
Libra launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Pegasis: wins, 8/10 (All KO)
Libra: wins, 2/10 (1 KO, 1 OS)
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF win rate: 80%
Pegasis definitely did a lot better against Libra than Omega; makes sense, since Pegasis CH120 is basically designed to take down LTDC (and has an especially easy time against Libra).
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II 85RB
Earth launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Omega: wins, 7/10 (All KO)
Earth: wins, 3/10 (1 KO, 2 OS)
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF win rate: 70%
This definitely should have been at least 80%; there was an abundance of wall saves in this matchup. Earth's 1 KO was due to a wall save (I might add that Omega shot Earth airborne across the stadium, and Earth leapt over the height of the wall before it landed).
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II 85RB
Earth launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Pegasis: wins, 5/10 (All KO)
Earth: wins, 5/10 (1 KO, 4 OS)
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF win rate: 50%
1 Tie redone
Omega definitely did much better against Earth than Pegasis did (although the margin wasn't quite as wide as Pegasis' lead against Libra). Overall I'd say Pegasis CH120, a combination literally designed to take down LTDC, is only slightly better than Omega in that respect.
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF vs. MF-H Libra R145RB
Libra launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Omega: wins, 5/10 (All KO)
Libra: wins, 5/10 (1 KO, 4 OS)
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF win rate: 50%
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF vs. MF-H Libra R145RB
Libra launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Pegasis: wins, 2/10 (All KO)
Libra: wins, 8/10 (1 KO, 7 OS)
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF win rate: 20%
1 Tie redone
I was having trouble KOing Libra with both customs (golly, the thing is actually a pretty solid Defense combination), but Omega was very clearly superior in this case. Its KOs were far, far cleaner and more forceful.
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II R145RB
Earth launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Omega: wins, 8/10 (All KO)
Earth: wins, 2/10 (All OS)
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF win rate: 80%
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II R145RB
Earth launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Pegasis: wins, 3/10 (All KO)
Earth: wins, 7/10 (All OS)
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF win rate: 30%
Forgive me here, my launch must be kind of off today. Anyhow, Omega was definitely, definitely far superior to Pegasis in this matchup.
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II 230RB
Earth launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Omega: wins, 7/10 (All KO)
Earth: wins, 3/10 (All OS)
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF win rate: 70%
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II 230RB
Earth launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Pegasis: wins, 3/10 (All KO)
Earth: wins, 7/10 (1 KO, 6 OS)
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF win rate: 30%
Yah, Omega definitely had an edge on this one. Pegasis' KOs were kind of sickly-looking, but Omega literally shot Earth over the stadium walls. It was kinda crazy, watching an LTAC shred an HTDC combination so harshly. Even in the couple rounds where Earth was lucky enough to stay in the stadium, Omega was tossing it around like rag doll.
I re-tried a couple of the Pegasis tests with a mint Pegasis to make sure part condition wasn't getting in the way, but the results were actually worse. After that and trying a few rounds with Lightning, I'm convinced my launch is just off (I haven't tested in like 2 months, so it makes sense, haha).
Now, up until this point, I've done almost all of my Attack testing against Earth combinations (mostly because I didn't want to wear my Libra), so you can see why I perceived Omega as a great option against LTDC. Come to find out, it isn't as great as I thought it was in that regard, but, averaging out the results against Libra and Earth, it isn't that much worse than Pegasis, and it's certainly vastly superior against MTDC and HTDC.
I'm not saying these numbers are what everybody is going to get (seems otherwise at the moment), but I just want you guys to see the kind of results I'm getting so you can understand where I'm coming from. Omega's win rate averages at 62% against all heights, vs. Pegasis' average of 42%, so Omega is definitely doing a lot better overall for me.
Apologies for only doing 10 rounds apiece - I know that really hurts the legitimacy of the testing, but I didn't have much time and I wanted to cover as many Defense variants as possible. That said, my tests and Tri's appear to be the only ones on the site done on Omega Horuseus, unless I missed some (which is definitely possible, as I just skimmed - could somedoby link results if they find them?).
Just to note something, those tests were done using Pegasis III and 85; the custom is far more potent using Horuseus and 100 against all heights.
It doesn't do poorly against LTDC by any stretch (it's possible you could lose in a tournament, obviously, since your launch is an issue there, but overall it's definitely no weaker against LTDC than any other Attack custom I've ever seen), it definitely shreds F230 customs (if you're using Horusues and 100 - if you're using like Omega Pisces 85R2F, it's not gonna work as well), and Libra 85RF beats just about every Attack custom out there anyway.
Also, I would like to note that the custom must use MF-H, Horuseus, and 100, and it must be used in assault mode. Without those parts, the custom's performance decreases pretty significantly. The part selection is extremely, extremely important (not to use the "you didn't do it right" argument, but with this particular custom it really does matter a lot).
Just for verification, since our tournament in October that Echizen mentioned, there have been 8 Limited format tournaments, only 6 of which competitive Attack was used in. Omega is present in the winning combos for 3 of them (not sure how you missed those). Counting the total number of Attack combinations used, Omega showed up 4 times; Lightning only showed up twice (well, 3 times if you count when Kei used it with RB, but that technically isn't competitive Attack, and in that case I think it would be fair to include the other 3 instances where Omega appeared using metal Flat and WSF).
I'm not going to make the argument that Omega is becoming a problem in competition, but if it's showing up twice as often as Lightning, I don't see how you could argue that it isn't being used.
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF vs. MF-H Libra 85RB
Libra launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Omega: wins, 4/10 (All KO)
Libra: wins, 6/10 (1 KO, 5 OS)
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF win rate: 40%
1 Tie redone
Didn't do as well as I expected; I did see a lot of wall saves, though.
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF vs. MF-H Libra 85RB
Libra launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Pegasis: wins, 8/10 (All KO)
Libra: wins, 2/10 (1 KO, 1 OS)
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF win rate: 80%
Pegasis definitely did a lot better against Libra than Omega; makes sense, since Pegasis CH120 is basically designed to take down LTDC (and has an especially easy time against Libra).
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II 85RB
Earth launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Omega: wins, 7/10 (All KO)
Earth: wins, 3/10 (1 KO, 2 OS)
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF win rate: 70%
This definitely should have been at least 80%; there was an abundance of wall saves in this matchup. Earth's 1 KO was due to a wall save (I might add that Omega shot Earth airborne across the stadium, and Earth leapt over the height of the wall before it landed).
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II 85RB
Earth launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Pegasis: wins, 5/10 (All KO)
Earth: wins, 5/10 (1 KO, 4 OS)
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF win rate: 50%
1 Tie redone
Omega definitely did much better against Earth than Pegasis did (although the margin wasn't quite as wide as Pegasis' lead against Libra). Overall I'd say Pegasis CH120, a combination literally designed to take down LTDC, is only slightly better than Omega in that respect.
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF vs. MF-H Libra R145RB
Libra launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Omega: wins, 5/10 (All KO)
Libra: wins, 5/10 (1 KO, 4 OS)
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF win rate: 50%
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF vs. MF-H Libra R145RB
Libra launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Pegasis: wins, 2/10 (All KO)
Libra: wins, 8/10 (1 KO, 7 OS)
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF win rate: 20%
1 Tie redone
I was having trouble KOing Libra with both customs (golly, the thing is actually a pretty solid Defense combination), but Omega was very clearly superior in this case. Its KOs were far, far cleaner and more forceful.
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II R145RB
Earth launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Omega: wins, 8/10 (All KO)
Earth: wins, 2/10 (All OS)
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF win rate: 80%
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II R145RB
Earth launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Pegasis: wins, 3/10 (All KO)
Earth: wins, 7/10 (All OS)
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF win rate: 30%
Forgive me here, my launch must be kind of off today. Anyhow, Omega was definitely, definitely far superior to Pegasis in this matchup.
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II 230RB
Earth launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Omega: wins, 7/10 (All KO)
Earth: wins, 3/10 (All OS)
MF-H Omega Horuseus 100RF win rate: 70%
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II 230RB
Earth launched first on all launches. Bottoms new.
Pegasis: wins, 3/10 (All KO)
Earth: wins, 7/10 (1 KO, 6 OS)
MF-H Pegasis CH120RF win rate: 30%
Yah, Omega definitely had an edge on this one. Pegasis' KOs were kind of sickly-looking, but Omega literally shot Earth over the stadium walls. It was kinda crazy, watching an LTAC shred an HTDC combination so harshly. Even in the couple rounds where Earth was lucky enough to stay in the stadium, Omega was tossing it around like rag doll.
I re-tried a couple of the Pegasis tests with a mint Pegasis to make sure part condition wasn't getting in the way, but the results were actually worse. After that and trying a few rounds with Lightning, I'm convinced my launch is just off (I haven't tested in like 2 months, so it makes sense, haha).
Now, up until this point, I've done almost all of my Attack testing against Earth combinations (mostly because I didn't want to wear my Libra), so you can see why I perceived Omega as a great option against LTDC. Come to find out, it isn't as great as I thought it was in that regard, but, averaging out the results against Libra and Earth, it isn't that much worse than Pegasis, and it's certainly vastly superior against MTDC and HTDC.
I'm not saying these numbers are what everybody is going to get (seems otherwise at the moment), but I just want you guys to see the kind of results I'm getting so you can understand where I'm coming from. Omega's win rate averages at 62% against all heights, vs. Pegasis' average of 42%, so Omega is definitely doing a lot better overall for me.
Apologies for only doing 10 rounds apiece - I know that really hurts the legitimacy of the testing, but I didn't have much time and I wanted to cover as many Defense variants as possible. That said, my tests and Tri's appear to be the only ones on the site done on Omega Horuseus, unless I missed some (which is definitely possible, as I just skimmed - could somedoby link results if they find them?).
Spoiler (Click to View)
Seeing that two of the best Limited Attack wheels were only places 1 out of 6 or 7 combos used I don't think either should be banned.
(Apr. 04, 2015 1:21 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: If we unban RS, yes, it will bolster Defense types collectively, but it will seriously hurt the viability of RSF and RB. Then all you've done is decrease the number of viable Defensive parts even further.
I think Honey made a good point here:
(Mar. 30, 2015 1:21 PM)Honey Wrote: Whereas RS has use for defense and defense only, RSF and RB can be used for their aggression and attack purpose and also like Wombat said, they can hit almost as well as RF, but at the same time have a good amount of stamina, something neither RF or RS can't do.
While unbanning RS would give a little boost to Defense as a type, RS still has worse Stamina than either RB and RSF (remember this?), and wouldn't likely find use in the same semi-aggro, Defense-Attack Balance types RB and RSF have. If anything, I'd personally find RS to be a slightly riskier choice of Defense Bottom than either RB or RSF in a competitive situation because of its highly specialized nature.
(Apr. 04, 2015 5:45 PM)Echizen Wrote: -I looked through the Winning Combinations and it took me four pages to find an Omega combo used and it was used by you, TheBlackDragon. And you used it in October of last year... Omega hasn't shown competitive potential in 7 months.
As TheBlackDragon pointed out, Omega Attack types placed in multiple tournaments within the last seven months, and as I clearly remember, Omega was used several times apart from the instances it placed throughout both of the Virginia tournaments in December and January. :\
EDIT: (Click to View)
(Mar. 30, 2015 1:00 AM)Kei Wrote: That's one option that might be worth exploring, but here's another, potentially crazier idea:
Ban the most powerful Attack Wheels: Omega & Lightning. Omega because it is the heaviest and one of the most cleanly-hitting Metal Wheels, and Lightning because it is also incredibly cleanly-hitting, low recoil, agile without feeling too light, and because it is left-spin.
And here's the crazy part ... maybe all left-spinning Wheels too: L Drago, Meteo, VariAres, Dark Knight or Dragooon, L Drago Guardian, and L Drago Destroy. I think people underestimate the dimension having a left-spin Attacker (especially one covered in plastic, as is the case with Lightning) brings to a game filled with right-spin Beyblades and poor to average defensive options. The ability to intercept an opposing Beyblade with powerful head-on collisions and to destabilize/spin-equalize them by spinning the opposite direction is I think more valuable than the idea of 'chasing' and pushing with a same spin direction Attacker in many situations.
Wow, this is such a fresh idea, I'm disappointed with how everybody so far's only shot this down without even further discussing it.
I really feel like many members have forgotten the spirit of Limited Format, especially its dynamic banlist, where parts can be banned and unbanned every once in a while so we can observe whether their absence or presence positively or negatively affects the game. Ingulit put it best:
(Jan. 06, 2014 8:17 PM)Ingulit Wrote: Everyone keep in mind that if a part is banned or unbanned in one update, there is nothing saying we can't reverse that decision in a future update! For example, say we ban Gravity: if the format ends up being more fun/varied with it gone then we could keep it banned, but if we realize that not having Gravity actually negatively impacts the format or decide that it didn't really need to be banned, we can totally unban it later! That's the beauty of having a dynamic ban list; we can experiment with having certain things banned or unbanned, and if it turns out that the format is worse off due to our move then we have the ability to fix it
Ultimately, I wouldn't have a problem with banning Omega and/or Scythe, unbanning RS, or banning Left-Spin altogether! I honestly see no reason not to go through with any of these actions if, at least only temporarily, doing so will continue to keep this game fun and innovative. That is, after all, another rudiment of Limited, isn't it?
EDIT2: gah cursed with the final post of the page
![[Image: vwa_copy3_by_elcesplooshe_daejy2u-fullvi...Za8ANFHK5M]](https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/0779b042-834a-4ac6-9292-fab88a9af9cb/daejy2u-70e51d94-acbe-4593-ad69-5434d834b672.jpg/v1/fill/w_1024,h_317,q_75,strp/vwa_copy3_by_elcesplooshe_daejy2u-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9MzE3IiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvMDc3OWIwNDItODM0YS00YWM2LTkyOTItZmFiODhhOWFmOWNiXC9kYWVqeTJ1LTcwZTUxZDk0LWFjYmUtNDU5My1hZDY5LTU0MzRkODM0YjY3Mi5qcGciLCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9MTAyNCJ9XV0sImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl19.GJIQK2sXAJm5ScpS3pSVJ8KrA6Ru9qtE4Za8ANFHK5M)
(Apr. 04, 2015 9:44 PM)Aɴɢʀʏ Fᴀᴄᴇ Wrote: Ultimately, I wouldn't have a problem with banning Omega and/or Scythe, unbanning RS, or banning Left-Spin altogether! I honestly see no reason not to go through with any of these actions if, at least only temporarily, doing so will continue to keep this game fun and innovative. That is, after all, another rudiment of Limited, isn't it?
I would be interested in seeing left spin wheels banned even just to see what kind of combos would take their place. Lightning, for example, has been pretty dominant in attack combos since it's release and I think it's good for the hobby to shake things up once in a while. As you said, it's not like we can't change it back.
Speaking of dominant wheels, I see that Pegasis is being used in limited combos, but wasn't Quetz always a better wheel? Did Pegasis have some hidden potential that I didn't know about? Because Quetz isn't listed under the banned list. Why is nobody using that over Pegasis? (Edit: Don't take this as a Quetz bias given my new signature and avatar, lol. I'm just thinking back on what the dominant combos were five years ago)
(Apr. 04, 2015 9:44 PM)Aɴɢʀʏ Fᴀᴄᴇ Wrote: Ultimately, I wouldn't have a problem with banning Omega and/or Scythe, unbanning RS, or banning Left-Spin altogether! I honestly see no reason not to go through with any of these actions if, at least only temporarily, doing so will continue to keep this game fun and innovative. That is, after all, another rudiment of Limited, isn't it?
I know I don't have much competitve knowledge, I'm new, etc; I'm a noob, but here is my opinion:
Omega: As TBD posted, Omega is doing pretty good against LTDC and I do admit that defense should be winning more, I am on the fence with banning it. I do think attack should have some viable opinion to beat defense, but Omega is a little too good.
Scythe: Nothing to say right now. Will edit later
RS: This would help defense a lot against attack, but if we banned Omega and unbanned RS, defense would probably overrule the meta. I will do tests with Omega against RS.
Left-Spin: I think this is overboard.
-SpinStealers: They aren't all that overpowered from what I've seen. I don't see any reason to be banned.
-Attack: L-Drago RF is a great attack type, but if we unban RS, hopefully will balance out. Will test
I think if we ban too much, the only combo left would be Wolf 100 Q...
/sarcasm
EDIT: Don't mean to come out rude
Echizen Wrote:There's only been four I saw after the NC Limited tournament. I did miss where Geetster used it. But still only twice. And I'm not going to count the Omega W145WSF its balance really it's not even on a low track so not top tier attack. I won't count the LLD RB either. But I saw LLD used twice also.
I'm assuming you missed the combinations posted for the New york tournament; Omega appeared twice in that event alone (again, 3 if you count MF). Also, I was counting the NC tournament among the others.
Honey Wrote:Whereas RS has use for defense and defense only, RSF and RB can be used for their aggression and attack purpose and also like Wombat said, they can hit almost as well as RF, but at the same time have a good amount of stamina, something neither RF or RS can't do.
My apologies, I didn't even see this! That's actually a very, very good point.
Still, I would personally rather see Omega banned, seeing as that should theoretically solve the problem and get rid of a problematic Attack custom at the same time. However, if nobody else thinks banning Omega is a good idea, I could agree with unbanning RS for a trial run in the future.
Did some tests using RS on a LTDC, and here are the results:
Lightning L-Drago/Pegasis 100 RF vs Earth Aquario 85 RS
LLD/PGS= 0%
Need I say more for that?.. By the way, merged them since they got the same results; 0% and outspun each time. Only did 10 tests for this as, well... That..
Omega Zurafa 100 RF vs Earth Aquario 85 RS
OZ= 10%
EA= 90%
OZ won 2 times out of 20 rounds by KOing EA, but EA outspun OZ the rest of the matches. Seems like this would overpower Defense..
For fun, I tested it against my combo, Virgo ED145 MF, and I was surprised with the results:
Virgo ED145 MF vs Earth Aquario 85 RS
Virgo= 100%
Only did 10 rounds, but wow, that's something.
Lightning L-Drago/Pegasis 100 RF vs Earth Aquario 85 RS
LLD/PGS= 0%
Need I say more for that?.. By the way, merged them since they got the same results; 0% and outspun each time. Only did 10 tests for this as, well... That..
Omega Zurafa 100 RF vs Earth Aquario 85 RS
OZ= 10%
EA= 90%
OZ won 2 times out of 20 rounds by KOing EA, but EA outspun OZ the rest of the matches. Seems like this would overpower Defense..
For fun, I tested it against my combo, Virgo ED145 MF, and I was surprised with the results:
Virgo ED145 MF vs Earth Aquario 85 RS
Virgo= 100%
Only did 10 rounds, but wow, that's something.
Could you do a benchmark with RSF/RB?
Angry Face Wrote:Wow, this is such a fresh idea, I'm disappointed with how everybody so far's only shot this down without even further discussing it. Unhappy
I really feel like many members have forgotten the spirit of Limited Format, especially its dynamic banlist, where parts can be banned and unbanned every once in a while so we can observe whether their absence or presence positively or negatively affects the game. Ingulit put it best...
Ultimately, I wouldn't have a problem with banning Omega and/or Scythe, unbanning RS, or banning Left-Spin altogether! I honestly see no reason not to go through with any of these actions if, at least only temporarily, doing so will continue to keep this game fun and innovative. That is, after all, another rudiment of Limited, isn't it?
This part of the post struck me (in a good way). I think with Limited recently, the banning ideas and stuff haven't necessarily been looked at as a way to make the format more fun/interesting, but in general, just more balanced and fair. I think your post puts it with an interesting perspective. After reading your post, it'd definitely be fun to have occasional ban list changes for a month or a few, just to change it up and be a bit more fun (and balanced, too).
(Apr. 04, 2015 11:21 PM)Wizard Wrote: Speaking of dominant wheels, I see that Pegasis is being used in limited combos, but wasn't Quetz always a better wheel? Did Pegasis have some hidden potential that I didn't know about? Because Quetz isn't listed under the banned list. Why is nobody using that over Pegasis? (Edit: Don't take this as a Quetz bias given my new signature and avatar, lol. I'm just thinking back on what the dominant combos were five years ago)
It was actually established, about two or three years ago, that Pegasis had always been superior to Quetzalcoatl for Attack purposes, but Quetz had just been overrated for a long time due to its resemblance to powerful HMS ARs, like Samurai Upper or Circle Upper (dem slopes).
My experience with Quetzalcoatl in Limited has been underwhelming; it's just been less consistent for me than other Wheels, like Screw or Pegasis, though, I'd still like to find some perfect way to utilize both its slopes and smash in one combination.
(Apr. 05, 2015 3:58 AM)Hato Wrote: Did some tests using RS on a LTDC, and here are the results:
Lightning L-Drago/Pegasis 100 RF vs Earth Aquario 85 RS
LLD/PGS= 0%
Need I say more for that?.. By the way, merged them since they got the same results; 0% and outspun each time. Only did 10 tests for this as, well... That..
Omega Zurafa 100 RF vs Earth Aquario 85 RS
OZ= 10%
EA= 90%
OZ won 2 times out of 20 rounds by KOing EA, but EA outspun OZ the rest of the matches. Seems like this would overpower Defense..
Tbh, these are a little difficult to read and fail to include several important pieces of information. When posting test results for Limited, best to follow this formatting, especially when the results involve currently banned parts.
(Apr. 05, 2015 3:58 AM)Hato Wrote: For fun, I tested it against my combo, Virgo ED145 MF, and I was surprised with the results:
Virgo ED145 MF vs Earth Aquario 85 RS
Virgo= 100%
Only did 10 rounds, but wow, that's something.
At the surface, this may seem remarkable, but when you take a closer look, Virgo + MF is just a mobile Stamina type. The fact that it out-spun a low-Track combo on RS--the Defense Bottom with the second worst Stamina to RDF--isn't that surprising, lol. Good test and concept, though, it may be worth more to test against top-tier Attack or, in the future, those semi-aggro H145RSF/RB combos. Mobile Stamina combos other than Burn 85MF might be worth looking into.(?)
At this point, there's been so much deliberation on the matters of Scythe, Omega, and RS that discussion's becoming mostly redundant, so I think it's time we actually went through with something. Anything's better than nothing, really, and it's been repeated multiple times; no change to the banlist is necessarily permanent, so I really don't see what there is to lose.
EDIT: Hm... But now that I've thought about it, with TBR being only a little over a month off, I doubt any changes could be made to the banlist before BeyDays, especially with some qualifiers having already taken place. So I guess really, any change we discuss won't likely be made for at least another two months...
Earth Aquario 85 RS vs. Lightning L-Drago/ Pegasus 100 RF
Aquario launched first on all launches.
L-Drago/ Pegasus: wins, 0/20 ()
Aquario: wins, 20/20 (All OS)
Earth Aquario 85 RS win rate: 100%
Only merged the two because they got the EXACT same results.
Earth Aquario 85 RS vs. Omega Zurafa 100 RF
Aquario launched first on all launches.
Zurafa: wins, 2/20 (All KO)
Aquario: wins, 18/20 (All OS)
Earth Aquario 85 RS win rate: 90%
Hope this helps! ^__^
Aquario launched first on all launches.
L-Drago/ Pegasus: wins, 0/20 ()
Aquario: wins, 20/20 (All OS)
Earth Aquario 85 RS win rate: 100%
Only merged the two because they got the EXACT same results.
Earth Aquario 85 RS vs. Omega Zurafa 100 RF
Aquario launched first on all launches.
Zurafa: wins, 2/20 (All KO)
Aquario: wins, 18/20 (All OS)
Earth Aquario 85 RS win rate: 90%
Hope this helps! ^__^
I think the advantages and disadvantages are this: RS has a horrible amount of stamina and unlike RSF and RB, it can't be aggressive and have a fairly good amount of stamina left which is a good side, though because of it's grip to the stadium, does make it harder for attack to KO defense (which probably should matter more over other uses).
So yeah, I don't know what to say on whether to unban it or not. There are some pros and the obvious con to it. :\
So yeah, I don't know what to say on whether to unban it or not. There are some pros and the obvious con to it. :\
Yeah obvious pros and cons, but I don't think it will hurt much too add RS. Omega and Lightning are great metal wheels and hopefully if we can get some testing with RS we can come to a solid conclusion.
I guess I would be fine with unbanning RS at least temporarily. I never really liked it tbh, its Stamina is awful and it wears down too fast for my taste, so I've never used it. From what I've read it seems like it wouldn't really be that much trouble if you play smart, most Attack types should be able to OS it even if you don't Tornado Stall (I occasionally OS my RB/CS/RSF with Omega RF and RS should be much easier).
Now that I think about it MF-H Omega Horuseus ___ RS could be fun to try. (Weight room!)
However, if we unban RS I think we should leave Left Spin alone, seeing as by what Kei says Left Spin Attack is the way to go if you want to defeat it. But I agree with Angry Face that we should probably hold off on any changes until after AN (since some of the qualifiers are already done we wouldn't want to give Leone19 or whoever a (dis)advantage over people who have yet to qualify).
Sorry if this completely contradicts what I said on the last page, I'm probably just being influenced by others' opinions.
On a semi-related note, what are your opinions on bringing Gravity back? I know I was one of the main people pushing for it to be banned about a year ago but maybe the issue was just being blown out of proportion. I've been playing around with Gravity F230GCF now that I have a TT orange F230, and it really isn't as great as I imagined it would be.
Now that I think about it MF-H Omega Horuseus ___ RS could be fun to try. (Weight room!)
However, if we unban RS I think we should leave Left Spin alone, seeing as by what Kei says Left Spin Attack is the way to go if you want to defeat it. But I agree with Angry Face that we should probably hold off on any changes until after AN (since some of the qualifiers are already done we wouldn't want to give Leone19 or whoever a (dis)advantage over people who have yet to qualify).
Sorry if this completely contradicts what I said on the last page, I'm probably just being influenced by others' opinions.
On a semi-related note, what are your opinions on bringing Gravity back? I know I was one of the main people pushing for it to be banned about a year ago but maybe the issue was just being blown out of proportion. I've been playing around with Gravity F230GCF now that I have a TT orange F230, and it really isn't as great as I imagined it would be.
@[Wombat] I posted tests with Omega RF against RS, and it had problems KOing RS.. I would not unban it as this thing is way too overpowered.
So therefore, RS is successful against Omega (what was mentioned to be banned) though is almost completely dominant to attack in general. What we should focus on right now over it's lack of stamina is again, it being capable of attack having even more issue against them. Like, right now, I'd say if we were to ban it, left-spin attack would have much more of a struggle getting KOs off of MTDC and LTDC, whereas it wouldn't that much with RSF and RB.
I'd say Limited is fine where it is now. I think we should make these decisions after Anime North.
I'd say Limited is fine where it is now. I think we should make these decisions after Anime North.
Personally I feel RS should be unbanned. I do realize that is has a very strong and favorable matchup against attack, but imagine what happens when you put anything else against it? It isn't aggressive enough to KO Stamina and it probably can't outspin most defense. So it would be a high risk high reward type of part which I don't think would ruin the game. It would also make the format a little more interesting since I feel it would lead to (in theory) less attack bringing more of the stamina customizations out. And in a tournament scenario you are not guaranteed to know what your opponent is using so it wouldn't shift attack out of the meta. Attack would still be good, but it would balance it out a little more imo. Or it might not do much considering it is so risky. I just can't possibly see why it should be banned at this point. Although this is just my opinion.
I also think Omega should be banned. It is so much heavier compared to the other options for Right Spin Attack and I feel it limits the creativity of options. I know I would more than likely always choose Omega over anything on the Tier List, especially since it's main weakness is Defense and those aren't doing much from what I've seen. If RS was unbanned I could see Omega possibly staying legal to use, but if RS is still Banned I personally want to see Omega banned.
On the discussion I don't see a problem bringing Gravity back my self. There isn't really anything that would "destroy" the meta if it was brought back. With all the attack running around most of the competitive combinations that are would use Gravity at the moment would get knocked out quite easily. I personally and never did see it as a competitive threat to the game itself although I think the topic of brining Gravity back could be decided after the decision about RS. I think that could be one of the things determining if Gravity should return or not.
I also think Omega should be banned. It is so much heavier compared to the other options for Right Spin Attack and I feel it limits the creativity of options. I know I would more than likely always choose Omega over anything on the Tier List, especially since it's main weakness is Defense and those aren't doing much from what I've seen. If RS was unbanned I could see Omega possibly staying legal to use, but if RS is still Banned I personally want to see Omega banned.
On the discussion I don't see a problem bringing Gravity back my self. There isn't really anything that would "destroy" the meta if it was brought back. With all the attack running around most of the competitive combinations that are would use Gravity at the moment would get knocked out quite easily. I personally and never did see it as a competitive threat to the game itself although I think the topic of brining Gravity back could be decided after the decision about RS. I think that could be one of the things determining if Gravity should return or not.