To the Gravity re-legalization/rule change th!nk and Ingult are currently discussing in the advanced forum, I say:
AMEN BROTHER!
MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion (v1.5 - 9/20/16)
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I still like the idea of having a dual rotating wheel in the format somewhere (I still think the original proposal to ban GCF/CF for use with Gravity would've worked brilliantly), but if that's what it takes for the committee to unban it, I'm all for the idea.
Called it!
I never got better results with it than anything else particularly relevant back when it was legal (meaning Lightning, Cosmic and Beat, or even Dark Knight/Wyvang really), and Omega is such a hulking, unstoppable missile right now I couldn't fathom anyone's decision to use it over that. In fact, I personally couldn't see it being used much at all in the current meta among people who own the parts to top it.
If its spin direction is fixed, I wouldn't be surprised if Lightning overshadowed it entirely TBH.
th!nk Wrote:with how divided discussion about gravity in comparison to other attack wheels was, I don't know if we can say for sure that dominance over other attack wheels would be an issue with it
Called it!
I never got better results with it than anything else particularly relevant back when it was legal (meaning Lightning, Cosmic and Beat, or even Dark Knight/Wyvang really), and Omega is such a hulking, unstoppable missile right now I couldn't fathom anyone's decision to use it over that. In fact, I personally couldn't see it being used much at all in the current meta among people who own the parts to top it.
If its spin direction is fixed, I wouldn't be surprised if Lightning overshadowed it entirely TBH.
I'm gonna agree.
I definitely don't agree that it was dominating every attack wheel (and wheel for that matter) in limited, it was just the combinations that utilized the use of CF/GCF that scared people the most because they are quite difficult to defeat in some cases.
And on Omega, uhh yeah I'm gonna post some results in TheBlackDragon's Omega Horuseus thread soon, and they might blow your mind. As a big part of getting Omega legalized, I think I'm gonna big part of hopefully getting it illegalized.
I definitely don't agree that it was dominating every attack wheel (and wheel for that matter) in limited, it was just the combinations that utilized the use of CF/GCF that scared people the most because they are quite difficult to defeat in some cases.
And on Omega, uhh yeah I'm gonna post some results in TheBlackDragon's Omega Horuseus thread soon, and they might blow your mind. As a big part of getting Omega legalized, I think I'm gonna big part of hopefully getting it illegalized.
Is there any precedent (in any Beyblade generation) for banning parts from competitive play that carry a risk of damaging other parts? I keep hearing LTAC Omega is shattering tips and tracks left and right, and we might want to consider safety concerns if it's really a common occurrence!
Note that the only way Omega (or any other wheel) could possibly be considered a ban for this reason is if it has a noticeably and substantially higher rate of breaking parts than other wheels on LTACs, which might or might not be the case (I haven't gotten to test it yet myself, I'm just going off of what I've been hearing from other members).
Note that the only way Omega (or any other wheel) could possibly be considered a ban for this reason is if it has a noticeably and substantially higher rate of breaking parts than other wheels on LTACs, which might or might not be the case (I haven't gotten to test it yet myself, I'm just going off of what I've been hearing from other members).
On the topic of allowing Gravity to be unbanned, but only allow one spin direction I agree.
I never really found Gravity that useful for attack when it wasn't banned. The main reason I would use it was it took out the "What Spin Direction is the opponent going in?" question that determines a win or a loss. You could just attack it to a launcher and be ready. It's attack was alright, but Lighting, Wyvang, Beat and now the unbanned 4D metal Wheels outclass it really bad in my testing. If it was unbanned and you had to pick one spin direction I doubt it would be used as heavily as when you had the option to switch directions.
I never really found Gravity that useful for attack when it wasn't banned. The main reason I would use it was it took out the "What Spin Direction is the opponent going in?" question that determines a win or a loss. You could just attack it to a launcher and be ready. It's attack was alright, but Lighting, Wyvang, Beat and now the unbanned 4D metal Wheels outclass it really bad in my testing. If it was unbanned and you had to pick one spin direction I doubt it would be used as heavily as when you had the option to switch directions.
(Mar. 25, 2014 8:51 PM)Ingulit Wrote: Is there any precedent (in any Beyblade generation) for banning parts from competitive play that carry a risk of damaging other parts? I keep hearing LTAC Omega is shattering tips and tracks left and right, and we might want to consider safety concerns if it's really a common occurrence!Cross Griffon (a Plastics AR) was commonly known to sometimes break other parts, as well as make certain body parts bleed if grabbing it while it was still spinning, lol.
Note that the only way Omega (or any other wheel) could possibly be considered a ban for this reason is if it has a noticeably and substantially higher rate of breaking parts than other wheels on LTACs, which might or might not be the case (I haven't gotten to test it yet myself, I'm just going off of what I've been hearing from other members).
Also, a certain HMS combo was known to have extremely high recoil, possibly damaging itself and other Beyblades.
Cross Griffon was only banned not so long ago because it was apart of the Hidden Sprits series in Plastics, but the whole Beyblade was banned at that time so it wasn't for any particular reason other than that.
(Mar. 25, 2014 8:51 PM)Ingulit Wrote: Is there any precedent (in any Beyblade generation) for banning parts from competitive play that carry a risk of damaging other parts? I keep hearing LTAC Omega is shattering tips and tracks left and right, and we might want to consider safety concerns if it's really a common occurrence!
Note that the only way Omega (or any other wheel) could possibly be considered a ban for this reason is if it has a noticeably and substantially higher rate of breaking parts than other wheels on LTACs, which might or might not be the case (I haven't gotten to test it yet myself, I'm just going off of what I've been hearing from other members).
I've tested Omega excessively (and when I say that, I mean excessively), and the closest I've ever gotten to breakage was a minor dent in an old 230.
I've never seen the thing do any damage physically to any parts. It can, howerver, KO MF-H Duo (4D) Cancer R145RB relatively easily, which is absolutely ridiculous in the context of Limited. There's a reason I said this a while ago:
TheBlackDragon Wrote:After watching my Earth fly across the room a couple dozen times, I'm actually a little iffy on un-banning this thing.
And that was before I'd tried with with Horuseus (or even a Metal Face for that matter).
How does it do against Scythe/Libra CH120RF? I haven't seen any results against it, despite how good it is.
I'd expect it to do well against Libra CH120RF, as it's at just the right height to exploit its vulnerable underside. Not at all sure about Scythe though.
Nah L's tests were accurate - Libra CH120RF beats the snot out of Omega.
I really do not think Omega is a problem, even after trying every clear wheel I own on it, it still isn't good enough against 145/230 to deserve a ban IMO. It was good enough that I considered using it, but then I got my new Pegasis. Omega is REALLY nice against low track defense but I think Defense needs to experiment some more in ways of stopping it before we ban it. Libra toasting it is enough in the meantime - I would strongly suggest not rushing to a ban.
As for breakage, perhaps I overstated how likely it is - it hasn't broken anything yet, there are a couple cracks, yes, but nothing broken. I have however been pretty careful about what I use it against.
And no, there's no precedent for banning based on breakage - in fact, as the opponents breakage currently affords you a win for an entire beybattle whether or not they can replace the part, our rules actually encourage it. I've already submitted something about that to Kai-V in private.
I really do not think Omega is a problem, even after trying every clear wheel I own on it, it still isn't good enough against 145/230 to deserve a ban IMO. It was good enough that I considered using it, but then I got my new Pegasis. Omega is REALLY nice against low track defense but I think Defense needs to experiment some more in ways of stopping it before we ban it. Libra toasting it is enough in the meantime - I would strongly suggest not rushing to a ban.
As for breakage, perhaps I overstated how likely it is - it hasn't broken anything yet, there are a couple cracks, yes, but nothing broken. I have however been pretty careful about what I use it against.
And no, there's no precedent for banning based on breakage - in fact, as the opponents breakage currently affords you a win for an entire beybattle whether or not they can replace the part, our rules actually encourage it. I've already submitted something about that to Kai-V in private.
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Wow, I wish I owned Omega so I can join in this discussion X
Now, are you guys considering re-banning Omega because it's breaking parts right and left or it is OP?
I wouldn't agree if it's breakage, considering back in plastics, Whale Attacker (Seaborg 1) didn't get banned even though it broke things right and left too, so why would we do that here?
FUSION guys, not even a single discussion on it yet? On LTDC especially on Defense Mode it's probably crazy broken.
Now, are you guys considering re-banning Omega because it's breaking parts right and left or it is OP?
I wouldn't agree if it's breakage, considering back in plastics, Whale Attacker (Seaborg 1) didn't get banned even though it broke things right and left too, so why would we do that here?
FUSION guys, not even a single discussion on it yet? On LTDC especially on Defense Mode it's probably crazy broken.
(Mar. 26, 2014 4:14 AM)RDF3 Wrote: Wow, I wish I owned Omega so I can join in this discussion X
Now, are you guys considering re-banning Omega because it's breaking parts right and left or it is OP?
I wouldn't agree if it's breakage, considering back in plastics, Whale Attacker (Seaborg 1) didn't get banned even though it broke things right and left too, so why would we do that here?
FUSION guys, not even a single discussion on it yet? On LTDC especially on Defense Mode it's probably crazy broken.
Yepppp, that's why there hasn't been discussion on unbanning fusion XD.
"Fusion 85RB, Scary stuff"- TheBlackDragon
Honestly, the main thing Whale Attacker broke was itself. Cross Griffon is much more dangerous in that regard because it doesn't break, it just breaks other things. But no, people are talking about banning it based on power, primarily.
There's no talk about Fusion because it's already banned. There was some discussion of starting with it unbanned - well, it was really just a question over whether we should start with it unbanned, which I quashed pretty fast by pointing out the weight and the fact it had actually not been useless in standard as a low track defense wheel. That's about as far as pro-legalization discussion went, aside from that I've stated a couple times earlier on that it needed to be checked to confirm, and even without formal testing, the general attitude towards it from those who own it has been a unanimous "nah it's broken".
I'm currently working on an update to my "why is this wheel banned" thing, and also making it more formal, seeing as I think a full explanation for each wheel would be good for the OP to have - will probably include the other banned parts too.
EDIT: Working on the above - I was defining some terms for the explanations to keep them short, in this case the meaning of 'excessive' in regards to performance in a type - attack and defense were pretty simple, but then I got to the stamina one and there's MF-L Scythe (Metal Fury) Cancer B: D sitting in my beyblade box and just staring at me as I try to write out the stamina equivalent of the attack/defense definiton or something working with the same basis and it's just laughing at me as I try to do so without sounding like I'm going on about Scythe in something that is supposed to be kinda "formal" and I keep trying to work around it and I break into a cold sweat and I'll spare you kids the rest of this (the ol' leprechaun avatar fulfilled my nightmare quota for a while), but dang that thing is just ridiculous, gg Earth/Burn.
EDIT 2: Am now also trying to write out a proper concept for the whole CW Weight Equivalent things alongside the above with extremely cramped/sore hands from sawing some table legs out of a 1.23m long piece of pine without a clamp etc. The things I do ostensibly for you guys (but probably just out of vanity/boredom).
There's no talk about Fusion because it's already banned. There was some discussion of starting with it unbanned - well, it was really just a question over whether we should start with it unbanned, which I quashed pretty fast by pointing out the weight and the fact it had actually not been useless in standard as a low track defense wheel. That's about as far as pro-legalization discussion went, aside from that I've stated a couple times earlier on that it needed to be checked to confirm, and even without formal testing, the general attitude towards it from those who own it has been a unanimous "nah it's broken".
I'm currently working on an update to my "why is this wheel banned" thing, and also making it more formal, seeing as I think a full explanation for each wheel would be good for the OP to have - will probably include the other banned parts too.
EDIT: Working on the above - I was defining some terms for the explanations to keep them short, in this case the meaning of 'excessive' in regards to performance in a type - attack and defense were pretty simple, but then I got to the stamina one and there's MF-L Scythe (Metal Fury) Cancer B: D sitting in my beyblade box and just staring at me as I try to write out the stamina equivalent of the attack/defense definiton or something working with the same basis and it's just laughing at me as I try to do so without sounding like I'm going on about Scythe in something that is supposed to be kinda "formal" and I keep trying to work around it and I break into a cold sweat and I'll spare you kids the rest of this (the ol' leprechaun avatar fulfilled my nightmare quota for a while), but dang that thing is just ridiculous, gg Earth/Burn.
EDIT 2: Am now also trying to write out a proper concept for the whole CW Weight Equivalent things alongside the above with extremely cramped/sore hands from sawing some table legs out of a 1.23m long piece of pine without a clamp etc. The things I do ostensibly for you guys (but probably just out of vanity/boredom).
Wait, "L" tested Omega against Libra? I must've totally missed that. My first statement was more theoretical than not (hence the word "expect"), but yah if there's testing then go by whatever that says.
TBH, I think there might be something going on with your Omega, th!nk. Not that you've ever had a problem with conflicting results before, but out of the few people I've talked to about it, you're the only one who doesn't think Omega is hopelessly broken, and certainly the only one who thinks Pegasis is actually better.
If it was just my testing vs. yours, I'd be inclined to believe that you were correct, but as things stand, as far as formal testing goes, Tri's gotten the same results as I have apparently, and I've talked to a couple other people about informal testing and they agree the thing is way off mark with the whole " keep things balanced" idea.
Oh, and uh, I actually find Omega at least twice as effective against mid-height opponents than Pegasis.
Oh gosh, does Ingulit have Omega? If he's got like 30 seconds to test it, that would be totally amazing.
TBH, I think there might be something going on with your Omega, th!nk. Not that you've ever had a problem with conflicting results before, but out of the few people I've talked to about it, you're the only one who doesn't think Omega is hopelessly broken, and certainly the only one who thinks Pegasis is actually better.
If it was just my testing vs. yours, I'd be inclined to believe that you were correct, but as things stand, as far as formal testing goes, Tri's gotten the same results as I have apparently, and I've talked to a couple other people about informal testing and they agree the thing is way off mark with the whole " keep things balanced" idea.
Oh, and uh, I actually find Omega at least twice as effective against mid-height opponents than Pegasis.
Oh gosh, does Ingulit have Omega? If he's got like 30 seconds to test it, that would be totally amazing.
I guess a lot of my use of Omega has been against RS, and my other defense tips are mostly aggressive, and I tend to use Libra (mine being rather worn) because I don't want to risk breaking another Earth, so that probably plays a part, seeing as a lot of my Pegasis use has been against less aggressive tips or whatever. I'm pretty sure the banlist is fixed until the end of qualifiers anyway (at least we all seemed in agreement about it), but then as long as Libra anti-attack does handle it, it shouldn't be too problematic. Either way, I'll take another look at it after I've finished eating dinner - play around with my banking a bit and so on.
Oh, one question that might be relevant actually - what tracks were you using on those mid height defense setups? I was using a soft-rubbered R145 for most mid-height stuff (GB145's are a pain to replace) and Omega definitely makes quite a bit of contact with it - if you were using something else, that could well be part of it?
EDIT: Okay on quickly getting out some Mid Height Defense customs, the reason I don't find Omega significantly better than Pegasis isn't because Omega is doing poorly - it's because Pegasis CH120/S130 has no trouble against Mid-Height Defense (RSF). Omega did have an easier time vs GB145, I noticed, but it was also not struggling. Omega did hit harder than Pegasis and is better against low tracks, it's strong yes but strong enough to be a real problem under tournament conditions? Ehhhh I dunno - keep in mind we're talking about an Attack wheel here.
If people are using Omega for upcoming tournaments, it'd be really nice if they could make note of what they beat - specifically if it's beating things with rubber tips.
Oh by the way I forgot - I did actually have a break with Omega. Aside from a small crack appearing in my F230's tip attachment area (so I guess now I have an actual personal motivation for wanting to be allowed to swap subcomponents, as that's another part of it that doesn't affect the performance, so when it breaks it could be replaced with one from any one and still perform the same, so there goes any claims of neutrality on that issue for me
), I had the threading in a 230 break off, the 230 I was using for the Omega stuff (from Flash Sagittario, which is a shame as that was my favourite). Couple of MF2 cores with a little damage to the threading too, though given how much I've used them, couldn't say it was Omega's fault really.
EDIT 2: Okay, tried a range of stuff against both Omega and Pegasis, or just omega in some cases or whatever - MF-H Earth Sagittario II GB145/R145RSF, MF-H Earth Aquario 230RB, MF-H Bakushin Aquario 90RB, they both were basically doing the same, though that's because I don't have any trouble against these with Pegasis anyway - Omega hit harder, yeah, but if you can hit an opponent the length of the stadium on your third hit or thereabouts you're pretty much home, and Pegasis can do that. That said, practice with pegasis is a thing I have legitimately done a fair bit of and I had more trouble in terms of Self-KO's with Omega, so Pegasis may not be a fair comparison.
Still, there were a few differences:
Omega did do a bit better against MF-H Libra 90RB, but it still wasn't doing too well because my RB is pretty aggressive so Libra was knocking it out or dodging it quite a lot (though this was compared to my new pegasis - my old one does not fare well vs Libra LTDC).
However, MF-H Flame Aquario 230RB (using my 33g Flame) was the other way around - it wasn't wrecking Omega but it's not a combo that causes Pegasis any trouble.
Of course then I sat down to write this and realised that there was actually one simple defense type which I found Pegasis lacking against - MF-H Scythe Aquario R145RB. Again, not a total wipeout for Pegasis but one of very few combinations I would basically resign myself to a loss against with MF-H Pegasis CH120RF on my launcher, and the reason I still have a Lightning combination set aside for tournament use (because that's like the only Attack type that really stands up to it - and even it has to worry about Scythe knocking it out). Omega wasn't assured of victory, especially if Scythe manage to hit it rather than the other way around, but yeah, Omega is better against mid-height defense overall entirely because this is a mid height defense combination.
But that in itself brings up the same feeling I had towards gravity, and this time it's a wheel that I don't think is quite as good (due to dodginess vs some tall stuff) and doesn't have any use outside of Attack - After weighing up the consequences, likeliness of seeing competitive use, how hard each are to use, etc - I'd rather have it around until Scythe goes than get rid of it.
Scythe is definitely the main reason I'd oppose banning it, so the committee may well disregard that on the basis that my opinion on Scythe isn't considered proven until it does it in tournaments.
With any luck, Omega and Scythe will both show up at a qualifier or two, do their thing, and we can give them the boot at the same time.
But I would definitely want to see Omega prove that it is a problem in a tournament before giving it the boot - and that would entail it handling something with decent defenses in the process.
Oh, one question that might be relevant actually - what tracks were you using on those mid height defense setups? I was using a soft-rubbered R145 for most mid-height stuff (GB145's are a pain to replace) and Omega definitely makes quite a bit of contact with it - if you were using something else, that could well be part of it?
EDIT: Okay on quickly getting out some Mid Height Defense customs, the reason I don't find Omega significantly better than Pegasis isn't because Omega is doing poorly - it's because Pegasis CH120/S130 has no trouble against Mid-Height Defense (RSF). Omega did have an easier time vs GB145, I noticed, but it was also not struggling. Omega did hit harder than Pegasis and is better against low tracks, it's strong yes but strong enough to be a real problem under tournament conditions? Ehhhh I dunno - keep in mind we're talking about an Attack wheel here.
If people are using Omega for upcoming tournaments, it'd be really nice if they could make note of what they beat - specifically if it's beating things with rubber tips.
Oh by the way I forgot - I did actually have a break with Omega. Aside from a small crack appearing in my F230's tip attachment area (so I guess now I have an actual personal motivation for wanting to be allowed to swap subcomponents, as that's another part of it that doesn't affect the performance, so when it breaks it could be replaced with one from any one and still perform the same, so there goes any claims of neutrality on that issue for me
), I had the threading in a 230 break off, the 230 I was using for the Omega stuff (from Flash Sagittario, which is a shame as that was my favourite). Couple of MF2 cores with a little damage to the threading too, though given how much I've used them, couldn't say it was Omega's fault really.EDIT 2: Okay, tried a range of stuff against both Omega and Pegasis, or just omega in some cases or whatever - MF-H Earth Sagittario II GB145/R145RSF, MF-H Earth Aquario 230RB, MF-H Bakushin Aquario 90RB, they both were basically doing the same, though that's because I don't have any trouble against these with Pegasis anyway - Omega hit harder, yeah, but if you can hit an opponent the length of the stadium on your third hit or thereabouts you're pretty much home, and Pegasis can do that. That said, practice with pegasis is a thing I have legitimately done a fair bit of and I had more trouble in terms of Self-KO's with Omega, so Pegasis may not be a fair comparison.
Still, there were a few differences:
Omega did do a bit better against MF-H Libra 90RB, but it still wasn't doing too well because my RB is pretty aggressive so Libra was knocking it out or dodging it quite a lot (though this was compared to my new pegasis - my old one does not fare well vs Libra LTDC).
However, MF-H Flame Aquario 230RB (using my 33g Flame) was the other way around - it wasn't wrecking Omega but it's not a combo that causes Pegasis any trouble.
Of course then I sat down to write this and realised that there was actually one simple defense type which I found Pegasis lacking against - MF-H Scythe Aquario R145RB. Again, not a total wipeout for Pegasis but one of very few combinations I would basically resign myself to a loss against with MF-H Pegasis CH120RF on my launcher, and the reason I still have a Lightning combination set aside for tournament use (because that's like the only Attack type that really stands up to it - and even it has to worry about Scythe knocking it out). Omega wasn't assured of victory, especially if Scythe manage to hit it rather than the other way around, but yeah, Omega is better against mid-height defense overall entirely because this is a mid height defense combination.
But that in itself brings up the same feeling I had towards gravity, and this time it's a wheel that I don't think is quite as good (due to dodginess vs some tall stuff) and doesn't have any use outside of Attack - After weighing up the consequences, likeliness of seeing competitive use, how hard each are to use, etc - I'd rather have it around until Scythe goes than get rid of it.
Scythe is definitely the main reason I'd oppose banning it, so the committee may well disregard that on the basis that my opinion on Scythe isn't considered proven until it does it in tournaments.
With any luck, Omega and Scythe will both show up at a qualifier or two, do their thing, and we can give them the boot at the same time.
But I would definitely want to see Omega prove that it is a problem in a tournament before giving it the boot - and that would entail it handling something with decent defenses in the process.
you should take off scythe it is normal
(Mar. 28, 2014 6:02 PM)flameorion Wrote: you should take off schythe it is normal
Metal Fury Scythe hasn't been banned yet, you might just have a bad mold. If you mean the 4D scythe, it is majorly OP. You should really read around more or do your own official tests before suggesting something like that.
I say that completely dominant parts like e230 should be banned but powerful parts that don't ensure victory like rs should be taken off. Each part has its achilles heel. For example, a performance tip like rs is prone to low stamina and has been know to be weak against left spin beys. rs is a tip with a niche, it's sole purpose is to counter powerful attack types. Some of these bans are a bit overkill but most are rather reasonable. That is my piece.
There have been tests conducted showing that parts should or shouldn't be on the list. Feel free to perform your own if you think otherwise, though.
No, i was just voicing my opinions
This is a discussion isn't it
This is a discussion isn't it
He does have a point, Defense is meant to beat attack...
Easily, attack is the best type for this format though. RDF is a definite no, but RS does have weaknesses that appear with ease in many metas
Easily, attack is the best type for this format though. RDF is a definite no, but RS does have weaknesses that appear with ease in many metas
Not sure about this so I am going to ask. Since Mercury is kind of considered 4D since it was a Legendary Bey. Is Mercury banned?
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