please, I can understand each of your ideas, facts, and arguments, but seriously, arguing over LT and MM? their just beyblade combos. LT has great potential, i think all attack Tanks will come from this combo, MM just the same, RS and RSF are hopeless against it(OS and Tornado Stall), CS puts up quite a fight but in the RIGHT Hands, MM devastates most combos, though there are its kryptonite counterparts. Please, this is a testing thread, not an argument thread.... if you still want to argue, take it to PM ok, not in a testing thread
MF Lightning L Drago BD145LRF
![[Image: kiritoxasua_tag_1_crop_awesome_by_kujikato-d8mkgbh.png]](https://orig08.deviantart.net/b598/f/2015/080/f/6/kiritoxasua_tag_1_crop_awesome_by_kujikato-d8mkgbh.png)
EVERYBODY SHUT UP!!!! STOP ARGUING OVER CHILDRENS SPINNING TOPS AND GET BACK TO THE DAMNED TOPIC: DISCUSSION ABOUT THE COMBO!!!
I'm going to suggest that a mod who is mature enough to look past their own feelings on this argument move all the irrelevant posts (i.e. any posts not discussing the combo DIRECTLY. A tenuous link should not count) to their own thread (deleting them would only force the argument to arise again). We've strayed far from the actual topic here, and frankly, I'm sure I'm not the only person reading this thread who's getting sick of everyone acting like a bunch of children who haven't had enough sleep. Even mods are making posts that are completely irrelevant to the thread.
Move it to it's own thread that can be a "Recognition and other contentious issues" thread or something, and you can all carry on there, and leave this thread for the COMBO IT IS MEANT TO DISCUSS.
I'm going to suggest that a mod who is mature enough to look past their own feelings on this argument move all the irrelevant posts (i.e. any posts not discussing the combo DIRECTLY. A tenuous link should not count) to their own thread (deleting them would only force the argument to arise again). We've strayed far from the actual topic here, and frankly, I'm sure I'm not the only person reading this thread who's getting sick of everyone acting like a bunch of children who haven't had enough sleep. Even mods are making posts that are completely irrelevant to the thread.
Move it to it's own thread that can be a "Recognition and other contentious issues" thread or something, and you can all carry on there, and leave this thread for the COMBO IT IS MEANT TO DISCUSS.
![[Image: UwZsp7A.png]](https://i.imgur.com/UwZsp7A.png)
What I am going to do is ignore small and irrelevant comments from now on. I shouldn't have even fed into it but the disrespect and lack of appreciation/acknowledgement was really annoying me and I am sure others feel them. Dan and I made our points and they have been proven so it's fine with me. Also, thank you th!nk. You have been a great help. As for LT, from the looks of it, this really has no suitable counter. Tornado stalling really doesn't seem to work against it because if the same thing is done with LT vs. The opponent that is trying to stall, LT completely runs it over. RS can't do it because it gets destabilized too easily and CS doesn't have enough grip to withstand the hits. I think it's safe to say that only LT and possibly Dragon Punisher can stop it but Dragon Punisher is questionable because in the hands of an experienced blader, LT can beat it by snipe shooting at specific points for an easy win but that is very hard for most people. Even in a LT mirror match, the winner would be based on who shoots the weakest because LT at lower speeds has more defense and it's stamina is not depleted as fast therefore, the attacker would be rendered almost completely ineffective.
That is a good sentiment 
Have we got testing against Beat yet? As beat seems to also be extremely hard to stop. I take it from your post that this walks over MM as well? I'd be careful about calling it unbeatable as yet. That'll cause arguments
Personally, I think this combo's power is augmented by the fact it isn't super-easy to use, along with whatever the reason mine doesn't work right
Have we got testing against Beat yet? As beat seems to also be extremely hard to stop. I take it from your post that this walks over MM as well? I'd be careful about calling it unbeatable as yet. That'll cause arguments
Personally, I think this combo's power is augmented by the fact it isn't super-easy to use, along with whatever the reason mine doesn't work right
Every Beat I faced gave this a very good fight however if launched weak, more often than not, LT will win by defense and spin steal. I would say that is the closest to a counter besides Dragon Punisher. Even then, it's questionable based on the user because I have only gotten that challenge with Beat from ikmv and he is a great attack blader as it is. Besides, is saying it is unbeatable so bad if nothing besides one combo which doesn't work against anything else but left spinning attackers, beats it consistently or a certain user having enough skill to increase the overall success of an already powerful wheel?
Have you tested it against MF-H Gravity PerBD145MF (left spin)? Its pretty good..........
(May. 19, 2011 2:54 PM)® Wrote: Have you tested it against MF-H Gravity PerBD145MF (left spin)? Its pretty good..........
Could have sworn I posted results with that.. I guess not. I have then in a notebook though so I'll post them today. However, it didn't do any better than anything else because MF doesnt give it enough grip to stay in the stadium after a significant hit.
Try banking with it. It has good withstanding against LT.
Really? From what I've seen, MF usually has surprisingly decent ability to catch the Tornado ridge to stay in. That said, given the power this combo seems to have, I shouldn't be surprised. Hopefully when my TT LLD arrives I'll be able to get mine working. Otherwise, I need to toy with my LRF a little. Meh.
I just would refrain from calling it unbeatable, even if it is. People will take exception and we'll end up in an argument again
I just would refrain from calling it unbeatable, even if it is. People will take exception and we'll end up in an argument again
How can you say that there is no suitable counter when there are results that say otherwise?
![[Image: IkkiSignature.jpg]](https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/Gigamew/IkkiSignature.jpg)
There are results that show otherwise, however, Bluezee and others assert (and have shown by posting their own results) that an experienced user can still maintain a good winrate against them through correct launching/technique, and by having the correct parts (LRF). This has been supported by other members who have seen it occur at tourneys, in some cases.
If there are counters, it seems likely that they may be niche combo's, and as such aren't that useful unless you're sure your opponent is using LT, as I'm sure you understand
If there are counters, it seems likely that they may be niche combo's, and as such aren't that useful unless you're sure your opponent is using LT, as I'm sure you understand
You seem to always be on point with the explanations I want to put up. Thanks a lot for explaining th!nk. I get tired of covering the same things over and over again when I already addressed it with proof and evidence. Thank you.
(May. 19, 2011 5:36 PM)th!nk Wrote: f there are counters, it seems likely that they may be niche combo's, and as such aren't that useful unless you're sure your opponent is using LT, as I'm sure you understand
(May. 19, 2011 6:34 PM)Bluezee Wrote: You seem to always be on point with the explanations I want to put up. Thanks a lot for explaining th!nk. I get tired of covering the same things over and over again when I already addressed it with proof and evidence. Thank you.What you said is that there is no suitable counter. Not, that if there is one it isn't useful against other things.
With regard to "your not controlling it correctly" - It's a valid reply.
How can you say it isn't if players vary completely - As a first hand Lightning Tank user, I can confidently say I sucked when I used LT for the first few weeks and honestly thought it was complete trash - For heavens sake, I could barely get 50% on Basalt 230CS...
Later on, when you mold into how LRF performs, you control it correctly. You must bare through the hard days of using it sometimes and then you will optimise the performance.
Why you might not be launching it correctly? Ofcourse LRF is completely different to RF and even R2F in that it even seems like the wearing down of it is confusing and I sometimes question myself the material it's made of. Anyways, it's left spin therefore after mastering the sliding shoot/attacking style move with Right spins, you must mirror it on the other side ect. LRF's shape means that when it circles the tornado ridge, not just the bottom surface, but the sides make incredible friction therefore the sides wear down naturally and you get a slightly bumpier centre (sometimes). If launched differently, the centre can act as an RS and due to being completely natural wear, it's skill and inevitable for it's performance.
@
Ofcourse it provides good defence, for the reasons of LRF above, just because it's agressive doesn't mean it can not be defencive, that's too close-minded. Just because it's labelled something, which can easily be wrong, infact barely correct sometimes, does not mean it applies the whole time. HF/S is useless? It OSes 230CS easily, it knocks it out easily if you follow BladeStorm's combo. Gravity is attacking only? Well it can outspin 100% 230CS, it can KO 230CS without a problem.... There's another label that evolved into another. LRF can evolve, it may take longer, but it will.
How can you say it isn't if players vary completely - As a first hand Lightning Tank user, I can confidently say I sucked when I used LT for the first few weeks and honestly thought it was complete trash - For heavens sake, I could barely get 50% on Basalt 230CS...
Later on, when you mold into how LRF performs, you control it correctly. You must bare through the hard days of using it sometimes and then you will optimise the performance.
Why you might not be launching it correctly? Ofcourse LRF is completely different to RF and even R2F in that it even seems like the wearing down of it is confusing and I sometimes question myself the material it's made of. Anyways, it's left spin therefore after mastering the sliding shoot/attacking style move with Right spins, you must mirror it on the other side ect. LRF's shape means that when it circles the tornado ridge, not just the bottom surface, but the sides make incredible friction therefore the sides wear down naturally and you get a slightly bumpier centre (sometimes). If launched differently, the centre can act as an RS and due to being completely natural wear, it's skill and inevitable for it's performance.
@
(May. 18, 2011 10:16 PM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: Also, I don't agree with people who say things like this provide good defense. Ideas like this weren't around back in the day. It's a flat, rubber tip. It's aggressive. It isn't defensive at all. Your skill will not make it defensive.
Ofcourse it provides good defence, for the reasons of LRF above, just because it's agressive doesn't mean it can not be defencive, that's too close-minded. Just because it's labelled something, which can easily be wrong, infact barely correct sometimes, does not mean it applies the whole time. HF/S is useless? It OSes 230CS easily, it knocks it out easily if you follow BladeStorm's combo. Gravity is attacking only? Well it can outspin 100% 230CS, it can KO 230CS without a problem.... There's another label that evolved into another. LRF can evolve, it may take longer, but it will.
![[Image: sskullsig.png]](https://img802.imageshack.us/img802/4783/sskullsig.png)
(May. 19, 2011 7:16 PM)ControL_ Wrote: With regard to "your not controlling it correctly" - It's a valid reply.A part cannot evolve; it is our mindset that will.
How can you say it isn't if players vary completely - As a first hand Lightning Tank user, I can confidently say I sucked when I used LT for the first few weeks and honestly thought it was complete trash - For heavens sake, I could barely get 50% on Basalt 230CS...
Later on, when you mold into how LRF performs, you control it correctly. You must bare through the hard days of using it sometimes and then you will optimise the performance.
Why you might not be launching it correctly? Ofcourse LRF is completely different to RF and even R2F in that it even seems like the wearing down of it is confusing and I sometimes question myself the material it's made of. Anyways, it's left spin therefore after mastering the sliding shoot/attacking style move with Right spins, you must mirror it on the other side ect. LRF's shape means that when it circles the tornado ridge, not just the bottom surface, but the sides make incredible friction therefore the sides wear down naturally and you get a slightly bumpier centre (sometimes). If launched differently, the centre can act as an RS and due to being completely natural wear, it's skill and inevitable for it's performance.
@(May. 18, 2011 10:16 PM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: Also, I don't agree with people who say things like this provide good defense. Ideas like this weren't around back in the day. It's a flat, rubber tip. It's aggressive. It isn't defensive at all. Your skill will not make it defensive.
Ofcourse it provides good defence, for the reasons of LRF above, just because it's agressive doesn't mean it can not be defencive, that's too close-minded. Just because it's labelled something, which can easily be wrong, infact barely correct sometimes, does not mean it applies the whole time. HF/S is useless? It OSes 230CS easily, it knocks it out easily if you follow BladeStorm's combo. Gravity is attacking only? Well it can outspin 100% 230CS, it can KO 230CS without a problem.... There's another label that evolved into another. LRF can evolve, it may take longer, but it will.
To everyone who questions Cye's amazing abilities, I've seen him use Lightning Tank before, I've seen IKMV use Lightning Tank and I've also seen Bluezee use Lightning Tank in battle. They both can handle it and tbh, their results were pretty much identical to each other. If anything, Bluezee self-KOs more than IKMV does because IKMV has more experience with attackers.
So really Control_, saying you're a "first hand Lightning Tank user" against Cye who is Cye is not exactly saying a hell of a lot.
It's funny that you should say this is defensive when an earth wheel was KOing this combo last Brooklyn tournament.
Well done to the user of the Earth, i'm not surprised as labeling Earth as something which is "Stamina/Defence" whilst not KOing is definitely not what I want. Anything can KO anything, there are weaknesses for every combo.
In wearing it can evolve, in user, the performance can evolve - Yes the part does not literally evolve.
I am not questioning his skills here, I am questioning his thoughts on a part doing exactly what it's labelled to do, he does not talk about the combo, he talks about the aggression of a rubber flat. Hence the Lightning Tank information on top, my reaction is below his quote.
In wearing it can evolve, in user, the performance can evolve - Yes the part does not literally evolve.
I am not questioning his skills here, I am questioning his thoughts on a part doing exactly what it's labelled to do, he does not talk about the combo, he talks about the aggression of a rubber flat. Hence the Lightning Tank information on top, my reaction is below his quote.
Part of being an Attack type involves moving around a lot though ... That is their signature, or one of them at least. You cannot at all claim that what is traditionally called "Defense" necessarily involves moving around a lot as well, because that is false. It traditionally stays in the middle and takes hits, and there is a good reason behind that because if you move around, you have more chances of being knocked out too.
Also, yo, someone needs to bring some physical evidence that LRF is "COMPLETELY" different to RF and R²F. LRF in left spin cannot possibly be any different to R²F in right spin, that is just logical ...
Also, yo, someone needs to bring some physical evidence that LRF is "COMPLETELY" different to RF and R²F. LRF in left spin cannot possibly be any different to R²F in right spin, that is just logical ...
Dei, did you catch the combo that Earth was in? Even roughly? And who was using LT? What was their launch?
Not being critical or skeptical, I'm curious
We already know that rubber tips in general provide good grip, and therefore lend themselves to defense. The movement speed is the main factor counteracting that in flat rubber tips, so launching it slower should help a little (it's similar to WB, I'd think). At least, that's what I recall/can figure out. All attack types need a degree of defensive ability, as the energy in the collision goes both ways. Relativity or something. Anyway, without decent grip and weight (defensive properties), the attack combo should fly out.
Basically: Attack beys generally have to have defensive properties or they'd self KO on impact. Because of the physics
Not being critical or skeptical, I'm curious
We already know that rubber tips in general provide good grip, and therefore lend themselves to defense. The movement speed is the main factor counteracting that in flat rubber tips, so launching it slower should help a little (it's similar to WB, I'd think). At least, that's what I recall/can figure out. All attack types need a degree of defensive ability, as the energy in the collision goes both ways. Relativity or something. Anyway, without decent grip and weight (defensive properties), the attack combo should fly out.
Basically: Attack beys generally have to have defensive properties or they'd self KO on impact. Because of the physics
Yet I'm saying that if launched differently the LRF won't move a lot, therefore it's not attacking is it? Hence the hit and stop effect and points I pointed out a few pages before.
@ Your LRF/R2F question:
(If all variables are kept stable) In theory when both objects travel at the same angular velocity, the same directional spin on eachother should provide a much higher collision, hence slowing down. Whilst the opposite spin of the same angular velocity provides "spin sharing" and provide a small collision - Refer to the mechanisms in a clock. Hence when you see Gravity Perseus in left spin it does well.
Kai-V Do you mean shouldn't be different for R2F in left spin?
It's not how they move LRF with Left spin and R2F in right spin, it's when they make contact.
@ Your LRF/R2F question:
(If all variables are kept stable) In theory when both objects travel at the same angular velocity, the same directional spin on eachother should provide a much higher collision, hence slowing down. Whilst the opposite spin of the same angular velocity provides "spin sharing" and provide a small collision - Refer to the mechanisms in a clock. Hence when you see Gravity Perseus in left spin it does well.
Kai-V Do you mean shouldn't be different for R2F in left spin?
It's not how they move LRF with Left spin and R2F in right spin, it's when they make contact.
MF-H Earth Bull UW145 and I think the bottom was SD or D or something like that... Spin-Sonic used it. Spin-Sonic only lost because the wing of earth shattered at the last battle. Spin-Sonic was 2-0 with Bluezee.
To say attack beys have defensive properties is like saying cars can go fast. Of course they have defense because if no bey had any defense, it would be a light wheel and be KO'd on any impact. It's to what degree of defense that matters - if it can sustain more hits than the average bey can with minimal recoil, then it is a defensive, no? In Lightning Tank's case, it can be KO'd, even by itself. I've seen all of the New Yorkers "lose control" of LT enough to know that.
To say attack beys have defensive properties is like saying cars can go fast. Of course they have defense because if no bey had any defense, it would be a light wheel and be KO'd on any impact. It's to what degree of defense that matters - if it can sustain more hits than the average bey can with minimal recoil, then it is a defensive, no? In Lightning Tank's case, it can be KO'd, even by itself. I've seen all of the New Yorkers "lose control" of LT enough to know that.
(May. 19, 2011 7:41 PM)ControL_ Wrote: Kai-V Do you mean shouldn't be different for R2F in left spin?
It's not how they move LRF with Left spin and R2F in right spin, it's when they make contact.
No, everybody seems to believe that LRF is completely different to basically any other Bottom, but we know the difference between RF and R²F in right spin, so why would we have to understand something different when we think of the variation between RF and LRF in left spin ? The change should be the same, which is some more speed, but slightly less stamina. It is the same material, I looked it up.
(May. 19, 2011 7:41 PM)ControL_ Wrote: Yet I'm saying that if launched differently the LRF won't move a lot, therefore it's not attacking is it? Hence the hit and stop effect and points I pointed out a few pages before.I think you're misusing the term "angular velocity".
@ Your LRF/R2F question:
(If all variables are kept stable) In theory when both objects travel at the same angular velocity, the same directional spin on eachother should provide a much higher collision, hence slowing down. Whilst the opposite spin of the same angular velocity provides "spin sharing" and provide a small collision - Refer to the mechanisms in a clock. Hence when you see Gravity Perseus in left spin it does well.
Kai-V Do you mean shouldn't be different for R2F in left spin?
It's not how they move LRF with Left spin and R2F in right spin, it's when they make contact.
"angular velocity
NOUN:
The rate of change of angular displacement with respect to time."
Even if that was used correctly, I can't make heads or tails of what you just said. How do clocks come into play? Can you quote your sources for those physics?
(May. 19, 2011 7:45 PM)Kai-V Wrote:(May. 19, 2011 7:41 PM)ControL_ Wrote: Kai-V Do you mean shouldn't be different for R2F in left spin?
It's not how they move LRF with Left spin and R2F in right spin, it's when they make contact.
No, everybody seems to believe that LRF is completely different to basically any other Bottom, but we know the difference between RF and R²F in right spin, so why would we have to understand something different when we think of the variation between RF and LRF in left spin ? The change should be the same, which is some more speed, but slightly less stamina. It is the same material, I looked it up.
i think the difference is that LRF in left spin is used against right spin defence, yet R2F in right spin is used against right spin defence. a attack type in vs opposite spin should have a different reaction then attack types VS same spin
so if my theory is correct: LRF in left VS right should be the same as R2F in right vs left
but LRF in left VS right is different to R2F in right VS right
(May. 19, 2011 7:45 PM)ControL_ Wrote:As long as Earth gets one hit in, I count it as a KO on Earth's part.(May. 19, 2011 7:27 PM)Deikailo Wrote: It's funny that you should say this is defensive when an earth wheel was KOing this combo last Brooklyn tournament.You said Earth was KOing it yet you just said Lightning Tank was self-koing as I saw on the live stream. They are completely different, no?
I'm not basing my claims of self-KOs on just one battle. You forget I host two tournaments every week.