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MF-H Phantom Cancer 230 CS

Poll: Do you think this combo is worthy of being Top-Tier?

Yes
40.43%
19
No
14.89%
7
Maybe
23.40%
11
Needs more testing
21.28%
10
Total: 100% 47 vote(s)
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  • Show Results
Mar. 22, 2012  7:25 PM
 
Hello, guys!
I have wanted to make a thread for this combo for quite a long while now. It is used a lot in London tournaments by Hell Kid and has had a lot of success in tournaments. Hell Kid uses this combo 75% of the time, i'll let his Beyrank do the talking. There are two combos that are very similar to this that are Competitive. They are Phantom Bull/Aquario/Cancer 230 D and Phantom Bull/Aquario/Cancer TH170 CS. I made this thread to prove that MF-H Phantom Cancer 230 CS deserves a spot as well! So here are the tests:


Standard Procedure:
Spoiler (Click to View)

MF-H Phantom Cancer TH170 CS (CALM) vs. Basalt Aquario AD145 WD (MINT)
170:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 95%

195:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 95%

220:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom Win Percentage: 85%

MF-H Phantom Cancer TH170 CS (CALM) vs. Death Aquario AD145 WD (MINT)
170:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 95%

195:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 95%

220:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom Win Percentage: 85%

MF-H Phantom Cancer TH170 CS (CALM) vs. Scythe Aquario AD145 WD (Near MINT)
170:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 100%

195:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 100%

220:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom Win Percentage: 95%

MF-H Phantom Cancer TH170 CS (CALM) vs. Duo Aquario AD145 WD (MINT)
170:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 60%

195:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 65%

220:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom Win Percentage: 45%

MF-H Phantom Cancer 230 CS (CALM) vs. Duo Aquario AD145 WD (MINT)

Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 70%

MF-H Phantom Cancer 230 CS (CALM) vs. Basalt Aquario AD145 WD (MINT)
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 95%

MF-H Phantom Cancer 230 CS (CALM) vs. Death Aquario AD145 WD (MINT)
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 100%

MF-H Phantom Cancer 230 CS (CALM) vs. Scythe Aquario AD145 WD (Near MINT)
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 100%


MF-H Phantom Cancer TH170 CS (CALM) vs. MF-H Death Aquario BD145 CS (CALM)
170:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 100%

195:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 100%

220:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom Win Percentage: 85%

MF-H Phantom Cancer TH170 CS (CALM) vs. MF Scythe Aquario BD145 CS (CALM)
170:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 95%

195:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 100%

220:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom Win Percentage: 85%

MF-H Phantom Cancer TH170 CS (CALM) vs. MF VariAres CH120 RF (Right spin) (MINT)
170:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 10%

195:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 5%

220:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom Win Percentage: 20%

MF-H Phantom Cancer 230 CS (CALM) vs. MF-H Death Aquario BD145 CS (CALM)
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 100%

MF-H Phantom Cancer 230 CS (CALM) vs. MF Scythe Aquario BD145 CS (CALM)
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 100%

MF-H Phantom Cancer 230 CS (CALM) vs. MF VariAres CH120 RF (MINT)
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 25%

MF-H Phantom Cancer 230 CS (CALM) vs. MF-H Death Aquario TH170 CS (CALM)
170:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 85%

195:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 95%

220:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom Win Percentage: 85%

MF-H Phantom Cancer 230 CS (CALM) vs. MF-H Scythe Aquario TH170 CS (CALM)
170:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 90%

195:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 100%

220:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom Win Percentage: 90%

MF-H Phantom Cancer 230 CS (CALM) vs. MF-H Death Aquario TH170 D
170:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 85%

195:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 95%

220:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom Win Percentage: 85%

MF-H Phantom Cancer 230 CS (CALM) vs. MF-H Scythe Aquario TH170 D
170:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 95%

195:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 100%

220:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom Win Percentage: 95%

MF-H Phantom Cancer 230 CS (CALM) vs. MF-H Duo Aquario 230 CS (CALM)
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 60%

Ozerec's tests
Spoiler (Click to View)
Benchmark Tests
Spoiler (Click to View)

Again, this is to prove that MF-H Phantom Cancer 230 CS is worthy of a spot on the Competitive combos thread. If you didn't manage to read through all of those tests... i don't blame you. Tongue_out_wink Please feel free to do tests everyone!

This thread was approved by Kai-V.
Mar. 22, 2012  7:39 PM
 
Can you test it against MFH duo cancer( or aquario) 230cs please?
Mar. 22, 2012  7:43 PM
 
Yup. But it will have to be Aquario, since i only have one Cancer.
Mar. 22, 2012  7:48 PM
 
This combo is very good but it doesnot fair well against attack types.
Can someone tell me whether this combo is balance type (230CS is balance) or stamina?
Mar. 22, 2012  7:50 PM
 
If you're testing against Scythe, might as well use one of its better stamina combinations.

Try Scythe Kronos BD145EDS. I'll get around to testing this sooner or later.
Mar. 22, 2012  7:53 PM
 
Here are the tests:

Standard Procedure.

MF-H Phantom Cancer 230 CS (CALM) vs. MF-H Duo Aquario 230 CS (CALM)
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 60%

@Ga'hooleone I only have one EDS and i want to keep it for tournament use. Sorry.
Mar. 22, 2012  7:55 PM
 
(Mar. 22, 2012  7:53 PM)BeyHyperKiLLer Wrote: Here are the tests:

Standard Procedure.

MF-H Phantom Cancer 230 CS (CALM) vs. MF-H Duo Aquario 230 CS (CALM)
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom win percentage: 60%

@Ga'hooleone I only have one EDS and i want to keep it for tournament use. Sorry.

Thx or the test, the result is good if it can OS duo.
Mar. 22, 2012  8:12 PM
 
Ashton, it is balance.

So I'm guessing Attack isn't a big thing in London? Haha anyway I'll test the combo out and see how it fares myself!

Thanks for posting it!
Mar. 22, 2012  8:18 PM
 
Attack is used in London, but recently, not much, due to the weather it is harder to bank when your hands are shaking because your so cold. XD Although, now, since the release of Flash, and the warmer weather, Blitz uses MF Flash Beelzebub CH120 RF, so...
Mar. 22, 2012  8:26 PM
 
This does look like a good combo thanks for posting it.
Mar. 22, 2012  9:50 PM
 
This is excruciatingly similar to, as you have mentioned, the very well-known MF Phantom TH170CS combo... I suppose if there are implications of a genuine niche this fills that TH170 does not(somehow), I will allow this to remain open.

But, the idea is known and has a precedent.
Mar. 22, 2012  9:57 PM
 
Like i said in the OP, Kai-V had already approved it. I PMed her about a week ago since i made this thread, and she said it was OK.

Also the difference with this combo and the TH170 variant is that on 170 it can be KOed easier, and on 195 and 220, some CS's go aggressive, 230 can also gets more last second OS's than 220.
Mar. 22, 2012  9:59 PM
 
You might want to try this combo against Duo Aquario BD145EDS because I defeated this combo in my last tournament
Mar. 22, 2012  10:02 PM
 
If you read the above posts, you will see that i said i wanted to keep my EDS in good condition for competitive use. Also i know this combo can be beaten by pure stamina.
Mar. 22, 2012  10:09 PM
 
(Mar. 22, 2012  9:50 PM)Hazel Wrote: This is excruciatingly similar to, as you have mentioned, the very well-known MF Phantom TH170CS combo... I suppose if there are implications of a genuine niche this fills that TH170 does not(somehow), I will allow this to remain open.

But, the idea is known and has a precedent.

Yeah.. If it is doing better than TH170 in this case I don't see why you'd write it off (or even mention that).


I'll test vs. Duo BD145EDS for you.
Mar. 22, 2012  10:12 PM
 
Is there any other tests that need to be done? Im willing to do some tests.
Mar. 22, 2012  10:13 PM
 
Thanks, Dan! I can't see it doing to well against EDS (Pure stamina), but lets see. In tournaments the toughest pure stamina it has come up against were probably MF Basalt B:D and Scythe Kronos BD145 EDS, however it won both.

(Mar. 22, 2012  10:12 PM)Dark_Mousy Wrote: Is there any other tests that need to be done? Im willing to do some tests.
Um... perhaps if you have two Phantoms, you could do MF-H Phantom TH170 CS VS MF-H Phantom 230 CS. If possible.
Mar. 22, 2012  10:20 PM
 
Basalt B:D.. Pure Stamina?
anyway:

MF-H Phantom Hades 230CS vs. Duo Aquario BD145EDS
MF-H Phantom Hades 230CS win rate: 10/20 (10 OS)
Duo Aquario BD145EDS win rate: 10/20 (10 OS)

Yeah.. Whichever was shot first won. Definitely need two people for this. Or just go in assuming you have a 50/50 chance and then launch as hard as you can. Then again this is my Phantom which consistently loses to Duo otherwise. (used my lighter Phantom and lighter PC Frame.. So I'll assume it is 50/50 for Phantom at worst..)
Mar. 22, 2012  10:23 PM
 
LOL. I meant like that was the toughest stamina it has actually came up against (B : D was the good mold). Didn't expect Phantom to do that good. Thanks again, Dan!
Mar. 22, 2012  10:25 PM
 
No problem. If I could do double CS matches for you, I would, but only 1 of my CS' has decent Stamina anymore.
Anything not revolving around CS vs. CS?
Mar. 22, 2012  10:29 PM
 
Perhaps MF-H Phantom 230 CS VS MF-H Phantom 230 D? I just don't have two phantoms so i can't do any Phantom VS Phantom tests. But if you can do that test, thanks.
Mar. 23, 2012  5:43 AM
 
(Mar. 22, 2012  9:57 PM)BeyHyperKiLLer Wrote: Like i said in the OP, Kai-V had already approved it. I PMed her about a week ago since i made this thread, and she said it was OK.

Also the difference with this combo and the TH170 variant is that on 170 it can be KOed easier, and on 195 and 220, some CS's go aggressive, 230 can also gets more last second OS's than 220.

Okay, 170 is better against certain opponents, as are 190 and 220. They also outspin 230 and are far more reliable against a much wider range of opponents, rendering any extra LAD pointless in actual battle.

230 goes more aggressive than 195 and 220, it's all related to their height, 230 is the worst.



This is just a downgraded MF-H Phantom Cancer TH170CS. Not that I support anyone wanting to close this thread (god forbid we use the customization forum for what it has always been for), but yeah no.

That said, most WBBA-run countries prefer 230, and TH170 is a "losing part" so perhaps there is something to see.
Mar. 23, 2012  7:41 PM
 
For me, 195 and 220 tend to go more aggressive with CS than 230, due to the rattling of TH170 on 195 and 220, unless it is just my TH170.

Also in London, MF/MF-H Phantom TH170 D used to dominate, but now it doesn't because MF/MF-H Phantom 230 CS beats it like 95% of the time. Again, i can't do tests because i only have one Phantom, but if anyone has two, it would be highly appreciated if you could do a MF-H Phantom Cancer 230 CS vs MF/MF-H Phantom TH170 D test.
Mar. 23, 2012  7:56 PM
 
At the UK tourney last week no one really used either of those apart from me. Hell Kid has an awesome Duo mold which outspins Phantom combos even on CS and some people use Flash too. I'm only talking about my group though.

Mar. 23, 2012  8:19 PM
 
I know, Hell Kid told me. Also Hell Kid stopped using this because Blitz stopped using MF Phantom TH170 D, and because of his Duo mold. But this can still beat quite a lot of top-tier combos. I could do tests with MF-H Phantom Cancer 230 CS and Duo Aquario AD145 CS, although my Duo isn't the mold that Hell Kid has... or me and Hell Kid could do tests next tourney. To everyone else, Duo AD145 CS was the combo Hell Kid used to win Super Spring Smash!
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