There is already a testing thread on Jormuntor J2 from 2018, but KJ's testing methods have refined since then, so I figured I'd open up a fresh thread instead of necroposting.

As you all know, layer Jormuntor J2 is banned in Burst Classic. At the time of testing for Burst Classic, it was decided that it was too OP. That may no longer be the case! Since Hasbro has released the Slingshock tips after that testing occurred, and a great many dash drivers became legal in the format, perhaps J2 has a place in the format now without completely destabilizing everything.

*If you want me to run additional tests on J2, just tell me the J2 combo to use and the combo to place it up against.*

My tests began with an initial round of determining which disc and driver paired well with J2, and then using that combo against Hasbro and TT competitive combos.
I learned a lot along the way! Such as "a few of my layers are really worn out apparently and I have to light launch them".

Launch procedures went like this:
10 launches across 2 different launchers. J2 is launched first on odd rounds. Every 2 rounds, switch which launcher launches first. So in practice, there will be times when J2 launches on the same launcher twice in a row, but not necessarily launched first. It's weird, but trust me, it works out. I did that same thing with attack launches. You don't get to launch second all the time just because you're an attack type, that's silly. And attack types DID win sometimes when launched first.

The committee may do with this data what they will. I have no opinion for or against unbanning J2. If it is unbanned, I will probably use it. It is halfway decent. And apparently more reliable than some other combos.

B is Burst. KO is Knockout. OS is outspin. T is tied spin. DB is Double Burst. DKO is Double KO.
That was around 250 launches. I am very tired now.


The tests:

Figure out which one of these is the ideal using TT Wolborg Yell Eternal:
J2 Heavy Eternal-S
J2 Gravity Eternal-S
J2 Knuckle Eternal-S
J2 Heavy Survive-S
J2 Gravity Survive-S
J2 Knuckle Survive-S
J2 Heavy Yard-S
J2 Gravity Yard-S
J2 Knuckle Yard-S
J2 Heavy Orbit
J2 Gravity Orbit
J2 Knuckle Orbit

Hasbro Opponents:
G2 Gravity Survive-S
D2 Knuckle Survive-S
Y2 Gravity Survive-S
O2 Heavy Eternal-S
A2 Gravity Yard-S

TT Opponents:

Acid Anubis Gravity Yard Metal
Acid Anubis Gravity Trans'
Acid Anubis Knuckle Trans'
Acid Anubis Knuckle Orbit
Neptune Knuckle Trans'
Neptune Knuckle Revolve
Neptune Knuckle Orbit
Odin Heavy Defense
Valkyrie Heavy Quick'
Victory Valkyrie Heavy Quick'

(TT Wolborg Disc and Tip Test)
Jormuntor J2 Knuckle Survive-S vs Wolborg Yell Eternal
5OS - 5OS
(J2 Win Rate: 50%)


Jormuntor J2 Gravity Survive-S vs Wolborg Yell Eternal
3OS - 1KO 6OS
(J2 Win Rate: 30%)

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Survive-S vs Wolborg Yell Eternal
5OS 1KO 1B - 3OS
(J2 Win Rate: 70%)

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Yard-S vs Wolborg Yell Eternal
5OS 1KO - 4OS - 2T
(J2 Win Rate: 60%)

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Eternal-S vs Wolborg Yell Eternal
6OS - 4OS
(J2 Win Rate: 60%)

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Wolborg Yell Eternal
8OS 1KO - 1OS
(J2 Win Rate: 90%)
DEAR GODS WHAT! Going with this combo for the other tests holy cow

(Hasbro Opponents)

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Gaianon G2 Gravity Survive-S
8OS 1KO - 1OS
(J2 Win Rate: 90%)
Well, Stamina tends to beat Defense, but this is still...

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Doomscizor D2 Knuckle Survive-S
4OS 1B - 5OS - 1T
(J2 Win Rate: 50%)
That seems reasonable.

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Yegrion Y2 Gravity Survive-S
2OS 1B - 5OS 2B - 1T
(J2 Win Rate: 30%)
Hello321 knows exactly why this thwarted J2. Don't give up dude, one day we'll have tournaments again and then you can continue defeating me in matches.

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Orpheus O2 Heavy Eternal-S
2OS 2KO - 5OS 1KO
(J2 Win Rate: 40%)
Woohoo! The Lord of Nightmares shines like gold on the sea of chaos! I knew you had it in you Orpheus.

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Anubion A2 Gravity Yard-S
4OS 1B - 5OS
(J2 Win Rate: 50%)
This was more even than I thought.

(TT Opponents)

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Acid Anubis Gravity Yard Metal
4OS 4B - 2OS
(J2 Win Rate: 80%)
This was a TERRIBLE IDEA!

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Acid Anubis Gravity Trans'
4OS 3B - 3OS
(J2 Win Rate: 70%)
This wasn't much better.

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Acid Anubis Knuckle Orbit Trans'
2OS 3B - 3OS 2KO - 1T 5DB
(J2 Win Rate: 50%)
This was a nightmare. I need to stay away from Acid Anubis for a while.

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Acid Anubis Knuckle Orbit
1OS 5B - 3OS 1KO
(J2 Win Rate: 60%)
Wow. Either my Acid Anubis' teeth have worn down to nothing, or I have to light launch it forever. J2 definitely held its own.

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Neptune Knuckle Trans'
7OS 2KO - 0OS 1B
(J2 Win Rate: 90%)
Something's wrong with my Trans' I guess!

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Neptune Knuckle Revolve
8OS 1KO - 1OS - 1 DKO
(J2 Win Rate: 90%)
Just so we're clear, that was RIDICULOUS. That does it! I'm breaking out my old Orbit, dusty or not!

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Neptune Knuckle Orbit
5OS 2KO - 3OS - 3T
(J2 Win Rate: 70%)
Note to self, J2 is an excellent counter to Neptune apparently.
The Supreme One Yami what the heck am I doing wrong with my aA and N? Aside from hard launching?

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Odin Heavy Defense (tended to softlaunch on Odin, for obvious reasons)
2OS 1KO 2B - 4OS 1KO
(J2 Win Rate: 50%)
A Bit more evenly matched, maybe.

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Valkyrie Heavy Quick'
4OS 3B - 2KO 1B - 1DKO
(J2 Win Rate: 70%)
My attack launches were mostly on point this time, but my Valkyrie is kind of worn. It can and will burst or KO J2, but even with a solid attack launch it can burst against those edges.

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Victory Valkyrie Heavy Quick'
7OS - 3KO
(J2 Win Rate: 70%)
vV did fairly well launching both first and second, everything seemed kind of close to be honest. With my questionable attack launch ability, I'd say these are fairly well matched up.

---

Analysis:
The slopes on J2 are fairly good. It didn't do much bursting. So good that it can even hold onto Orbit of all things. It has a tendency to scrape a bit late in the match, but that's Orbit's ball casing mostly.
I assumed it would be pure stamina and treated it like a stamina type. Like Orpheus O2, it is way more nuanced than that. It has two edges that are perfect for causing bursts in opponents. It can KO. And it's mostly round so it has quite a bit of defense.
It has a rounded but swooping shape, good for destabilization. Pairs well with Orbit. Thanks Wombat for insisting I try Orbit, you were right to do so.

If added to Burst Classic, I don't believe it would break the meta horribly. It has strengths, yes. But it has weaknesses.

Links to additional posts with tests:
https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Hasbro-...pid1593270

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The testing is great and all, but shouldn’t this go in the Burst Classic Customizations sub-forum? And also, abbreviations or nicknames are not permitted. You must write out the combo.

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Ah I see. That's kinda what I though. I haven't had any recent testing with it, though I may test it later today if I have time. This bey would be very beneficial as it covers imo Hasbro's worst matchups (that being A2 and N1) and other than that it's stamina isn't terribly impressive. A good Neptune like layer with really good burst resistance, decent stamina, and a fairly even matchup spread. Good stuff Crab! I'll have to test check this stuff to see how accurate it is, but I thank you for the data!

The testing is great and all, but shouldn’t this go in the Burst Classic Customizations sub-forum? And also, abbreviations or nicknames are not permitted. You must write out the combo.

Moved. Also, it says
"Please be specific. Use the full proper name of the combination (eg. Valkyrie Wing Accel). Nicknames are not permitted."

I HAVE the full combos listed at the top. But fine. I already spent 5 HOURS ON THIS DANG THING I might as well write in the whole thing for each combo. They're not Nicknames, they're Abbreviations.

This is not the first time you've done this. You are in peril. You need to stop. Or you will be stopped.

EDIT: Folks, do NOT bring this thread on a tangent. I will thwart you.

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The testing is great and all, but shouldn’t this go in the Burst Classic Customizations sub-forum? And also, abbreviations or nicknames are not permitted. You must write out the combo.

That isn't 100% accurate. The full name can also be written as the abbreviation. You have to write out the full combo, but what I think they mean is instead of putting "V2 VS R2" they want "V2.B.V VS R2.G.R" also if it really means the full name, then that's pretty outdated tbh. Names are way too long now.

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The testing is great and all, but shouldn’t this go in the Burst Classic Customizations sub-forum? And also, abbreviations or nicknames are not permitted. You must write out the combo.

That isn't 100% accurate. The full name can also be written as the abbreviation. You have to write out the full combo, but what I think they mean is instead of putting "V2 VS R2" they want "V2.B.V VS R2.G.R" also if it really means the full name, then that's pretty outdated tbh. Names are way too long now.

This is good! This is REALLY good! I don't know much about classic myself, but there's nothing wrong with more data!
Although, I did notice that you only put it up against other stamina types... any plans for testing it against a variety of meta attack types in the future?

Can you test it against unicrest infinity revolve? I don't care which combo you use for it.

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Dun, dun, dun dun dun! My Faves and my life.
I love Unicrest Boi

Alright, so, I'll test it against Storm Spriggan, maybe Spriggan. What other attack types are there in classic? Don't know if I have either of the Xcals. I don't have Unicorn or Unicrest. Will check.

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Alright, so, I'll test it against Storm Spriggan, maybe Spriggan. What other attack types are there in classic? Don't know if I have either of the Xcals. I don't have Unicorn or Unicrest. Will check.

I think the baseline Hasbro V2.K.X is nessisary

Alright, I'm gonna get back to this. Not sure why Knuckle on V2 but I have it, I'll try it. Don't appear to have a single or dual hasbro or TT Xcalibur or Xcalius or Unicrest or Unicorn.

Going to try
Valtryek V2 Knuckle Xtreme
Spriggan Heavy Quick'
Storm Spriggan Heavy Quick'

Additional testing is as follows:

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Valtryek V2 Knuckle Xtreme
6OS 2B - 2KO - 1DB
(J2 Win Rate: 80%)
V2 CAN defeat J2 but you need to have a really good attack launch. It can happen, but.

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Spriggan Heavy Quick'
3OS 2B - 1OS 3KO 1B
(J2 Win Rate: 50%)
Spriggan held up like a champion, and every battle was brutal. Several KOs, bursts all around, and one time Spriggan even did enough non-KO violence to outspin J2.

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Storm Spriggan Heavy Quick'
5OS 4B - 1KO
(J2 Win Rate: 90%)
Storm Spriggan has bad teeth. I get that now.

Jormuntor J2 Heavy Orbit vs Storm Spriggan Knuckle Quick'
8OS - 2KO - 1T 1DB
(J2 Win Rate: 80%)
Without Heavy on Storm, the hits are just weak. It mostly can't push J2 past the tornado ridge, much less into a pocket.

I'm surprised Spriggan did as well as it did. Have I been neglecting the possibilities of this layer? It is violent.

If anyone wants to do testing with Xcalibur, Xeno Xcalibur, and Unicorn or Unicrest, go right ahead.

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I could maybe get some testing done in the next few days, but I only have Hasbro dual-layers, so no ' drivers and no Quick. Just Xtreme, Hunter, and a handful of plastic attack drivers like Destroy and Accel. Oh, and Iron.

So I guess just list whatever X2/U2/S2 combos you want tested, and I'll test them.

I also could probably test sometime but I've been pretty busy lately unfortunately.

So I guess just list whatever X2/U2/S2 combos you want tested, and I'll test them.

In that case, how about J2 Heavy Orbit vs:
X2 Knuckle Xtreme
S2 Knuckle Xtreme
Whatever you think is a decent U2 combo

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So I guess just list whatever X2/U2/S2 combos you want tested, and I'll test them.

In that case, how about J2 Heavy Orbit vs:
X2 Knuckle Xtreme
S2 Knuckle Xtreme
Whatever you think is a decent U2 combo

Combo testing, 10 rounds each, all Hasbro parts, J2 launched first.

J2 Heavy Orbit: 5 OS
S2 Knuckle Xtreme: 3 BF, 2 KO
J2 Heavy Orbit win rate: 50%

Specific notes: N/A


J2 Heavy Orbit: 7 OS, 2 BST
X2 Knuckle Xtreme: 1 KO
J2 win rate: 90%

Specific notes: X2 is too round to deal any significant damage of any kind to J2, the reliance on the single major contact point of the sword cripples its potential.


J2 Heavy Orbit: 5 OS, 2 BF
U2 Knuckle Xtreme: 2 KO, 1 BF
J2 win rate: 70%

Specific notes: U2 shows some potential, consistently leaving J2 at half-slope when outspun. It's possible that a different disk/driver combination may help bring it into the spotlight (potentially as a stationary attacker?).


General notes: My Orbit is semi-aggressive unless it's medium-soft launched, and my Xtreme is from the white Hasbro Dragoon remake (Dragoon Wing Xtreme, I believe), so it might have a looser spring than other Xtreme drivers.

EDIT: I pressed some keys on my keyboard on accident and posted before this was even close to complete, DC pls don't delet

Since I had my Beyblades out for... another reason, I decided to do some testing for Jormuntor J2 (as well as Dark Deathscyther, since those two are essentially Hasbro/TT counterparts). I would have used V2 for the attack tests, since I find it to be a superior KO Attacker to single layer Spriggan (at least in terms of rotational recoil), but ever since The Incident I haven't had a usable V2, and DC's results with Spriggan were also intriguing, so I figured I would try it out. I also tried testing against Deathscyther Spread Revolve, but the only Deathscyther I was willing to use for testing was so worn that it would burst in every round, so I just decided to scrap those.

Spriggan Limited Quick' vs Jormuntor J2 Gravity Orbit
S.L.Qc': 8 wins (all KO)
J2.G.O: 12 wins (2 KO, 7 OS, 3 Burst)
1 Tie (double KO) redone
J2.G.O win rate: 60%

There was a lot of directional recoil in this battle, and one of Spriggan's KOs came from a wall bounce (which counts as a KO at the time of this post), though J2 bursted it after returning to the stadium. J2 also got 3 or 4 lucky wall saves over the course of the test, so that might play into why it got a higher winrate than D2 below. I found Spriggan's rotational recoil to work against it a lot in this battle (which is kind of its main weakness to begin with) as it self-bursted several times even with a Dash Driver and would run out of steam/juice pretty quickly if it was unable to finish the fight in 1-3 hits.

Spriggan Limited Quick' vs Dark Deathscyther Gravity Orbit
S.L.Qc': 11 wins (4 KO,  7 Burst)
D2.G.O: 9 wins (all OS)
2 ties (double burst)
D2.G.O win rate: 45%

Several of the bursts (I want to say 3-4?) were pretty late game, which I found a bit surprising since Spriggan's shape lends itself more to KO Attack. Historically, D2 has generally resisted being KOed more than being bursted, and it was knocked back noticeably less than J2 from Spriggan's attacks.

Yegdrion Heavy Yard-S vs Jormuntor J2 Gravity Orbit
Y.H.Yr-S: 9 wins (all OS)
J2.G.O: 1 win (Burst)
J2.G.O win rate: 10%

Yegdrion Heavy Yard-S vs Dark Deathscyther Gravity Orbit
Y.H.Yr-S: 8 wins (all OS)
D2.G.O: 2 wins (all OS)
1 tie (double OS) redone
D2.G.O win rate: 20%

Yegdrion's wins against J2 were by a noticeably greater margin than against D2, but due to the Driver matchup it still seemed able to defeat both pretty consistently.

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From this testing we can observe that:

• Jormuntor has higher Burst Defense than D2, as evidenced by it never bursting vs Spriggan, whereas D2 did multiple times
  
• D2 has higher KO Defense than J2, since it was not knocked out as often and did not take as much directional recoil
  
• J2 is significantly more aggressive than D2, as evidenced by the offensive ways it defeated Spriggan and its burst vs Yegdrion
  
• D2 has slightly higher Stamina than J2, as it had a stronger performance against Yegdrion
  
• Both D2 and J2 can win about 50% of the time against a top tier KO Attacker, in testing
  
• Neither D2 nor J2 could consistently overcome a bad Driver matchup, at least in the case of Orbit (which is probably the best/most common Driver for these Layers) vs Yr-S, though I didn't test Defense, Om, or Yr-S
  

While historically J2 and D2 have been problematic since their synergy with Orbit made them difficult to defeat with conventional (Revolve) Stamina and most non-specialized Attackers, Classic is a much different environment than the original Single/Dual Layer era, because of several factors: Access to a wider variety of Attackers due to/as well as Dash Drivers, the greater presence of left spin combos, and the ground-up growth approach of the format (since many of the competitive players nowadays were not around during the era it was based around). I'd say that for the time being, it might be worth it to unban them - one of the good things about Classic is that the banlist is dynamic, meaning that can be changed not only to account for game balance, but also just to keep the meta fresh if necessary. If this ends up being a mistake, we can just re-ban them later on.

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EDIT: I pressed some keys on my keyboard on accident and posted before this was even close to complete, DC pls don't delet

Since I had my Beyblades out for... another reason, I decided to do some testing for Jormuntor J2 (as well as Dark Deathscyther, since those two are essentially Hasbro/TT counterparts). I would have used V2 for the attack tests, since I find it to be a superior KO Attacker to single layer Spriggan (at least in terms of rotational recoil), but ever since The Incident I haven't had a usable V2, and DC's results with Spriggan were also intriguing, so I figured I would try it out. I also tried testing against Deathscyther Spread Revolve, but the only Deathscyther I was willing to use for testing was so worn that it would burst in every round, so I just decided to scrap those.

Spriggan Limited Quick' vs Jormuntor J2 Gravity Orbit
S.L.Qc': 8 wins (all KO)
J2.G.O: 12 wins (2 KO, 7 OS, 3 Burst)
1 Tie (double KO) redone
J2.G.O win rate: 60%

There was a lot of directional recoil in this battle, and one of Spriggan's KOs came from a wall bounce (which counts as a KO at the time of this post), though J2 bursted it after returning to the stadium. J2 also got 3 or 4 lucky wall saves over the course of the test, so that might play into why it got a higher winrate than D2 below. I found Spriggan's rotational recoil to work against it a lot in this battle (which is kind of its main weakness to begin with) as it self-bursted several times even with a Dash Driver and would run out of steam/juice pretty quickly if it was unable to finish the fight in 1-3 hits.

Spriggan Limited Quick' vs Dark Deathscyther Gravity Orbit
S.L.Qc': 11 wins (4 KO,  7 Burst)
D2.G.O: 9 wins (all OS)
2 ties (double burst)
D2.G.O win rate: 45%

Several of the bursts (I want to say 3-4?) were pretty late game, which I found a bit surprising since Spriggan's shape lends itself more to KO Attack. Historically, D2 has generally resisted being KOed more than being bursted, and it was knocked back noticeably less than J2 from Spriggan's attacks.

Yegdrion Heavy Yard-S vs Jormuntor J2 Gravity Orbit
Y.H.Yr-S: 9 wins (all OS)
J2.G.O: 1 win (Burst)
J2.G.O win rate: 10%

Yegdrion Heavy Yard-S vs Dark Deathscyther Gravity Orbit
Y.H.Yr-S: 8 wins (all OS)
D2.G.O: 2 wins (all OS)
1 tie (double OS) redone
D2.G.O win rate: 20%

Yegdrion's wins against J2 were by a noticeably greater margin than against D2, but due to the Driver matchup it still seemed able to defeat both pretty consistently.

---

From this testing we can observe that:

• Jormuntor has higher Burst Defense than D2, as evidenced by it never bursting vs Spriggan, whereas D2 did multiple times
  
• D2 has higher KO Defense than J2, since it was not knocked out as often and did not take as much directional recoil
  
• J2 is significantly more aggressive than D2, as evidenced by the offensive ways it defeated Spriggan and its burst vs Yegdrion
  
• D2 has slightly higher Stamina than J2, as it had a stronger performance against Yegdrion
  
• Both D2 and J2 can win about 50% of the time against a top tier KO Attacker, in testing
  
• Neither D2 nor J2 could consistently overcome a bad Driver matchup, at least in the case of Orbit (which is probably the best/most common Driver for these Layers) vs Yr-S, though I didn't test Defense, Om, or Yr-S
  

While historically J2 and D2 have been problematic since their synergy with Orbit made them difficult to defeat with conventional (Revolve) Stamina and most non-specialized Attackers, Classic is a much different environment than the original Single/Dual Layer era, because of several factors: Access to a wider variety of Attackers due to/as well as Dash Drivers, the greater presence of left spin combos, and the ground-up growth approach of the format (since many of the competitive players nowadays were not around during the era it was based around). I'd say that for the time being, it might be worth it to unban them - one of the good things about Classic is that the banlist is dynamic, meaning that can be changed not only to account for game balance, but also just to keep the meta fresh if necessary. If this ends up being a mistake, we can just re-ban them later on.

Thanks for the test wombat! I definitely agree with the ending statements. I really don't understand why unbanning things (and of course banning them too) is always such a hassle. I get it may cause unfair losses in some people's eyes but that what the testing is for and and you said, just ban it if it's too much of a problem. I feel the same way about the turbo exclusives tbh.

Found a promising combo in free-play, decided to put it through a couple test battles... quite surprising results!

All Hasbro parts, draws redone, J2 launched first, 20 rounds done.

J2 Heavy Orbit: 1 BF, 1 OS
Z2 Heavy Revolve: 13 BF, 5 OS

J2 win rate: 10%

Notes: Z2 has proven to be extremely effective at bursting J2, while also having enough stamina to potentially outspin if it can't score a burst. I highly suggest that more testing be done regarding Z2 as a stationary burst attacker with high stamina.