HMS General Discussion

Are there any dangers in the takara thunder dragon, and if so, what?
Wait for the answers in the "HMS Q&A Thread" for the exact question you had asked there.
So an order I had basically given up on a long time ago arrived today, much to my glee. Some notes, seeing as I know have a lot of HMS parts:

Metal Weight Grip Flat Core or whatever Dragoon MF's CWD is does seem very competitive, it's fast enough and also easy to control. Will try to do attack v attack, seeing as I have a functional GFC (UM) again (I really didn't expect that, you should've seen my face when I realised haha)
Metal Flat Core stilllll sucks. Still see absolutely no reason to use it, between Metal Change Core and the Grip Cores.
Metal Semi Flat Core seems to make for a good force smash RC, with Advance Striker and Circle Heavy.
The above combo is pretty dangerous, could be competitive, but is most definitely a lot of fun.
I much prefer Advance Survivor to Advance Balancer, though the recoil it has when you have the metal frame the wrong way up could be problematic, so far all seems clear. Advance Survivor seems to take hits significantly better when oriented correctly compared to balancer. Will try to do 1v1 tests at some point.
Wolf Crusher, now I actually have one to look at, should probably be removed from the competitive parts list. Beywiki only mentions it because it does work, its weight distribution is pretty average tbh. Haven't really tried it out because I'm tired as is.
Grip Flat Core is really controllable and I can actually understand why some prefer it to GFC (UM). Real tight flower pattern, even with me being horrendously rusty at launching HMS.

-Solo spins with Wolf Crusher and Jiraiya Blade in MAMS' Gyro Mode
-Comparisons of Aero Knight MS/RCMS' AR's for wobbling - and whether that's worth bothering with at all (right now I'm having trouble seeing how they beat anything of note).
-More testing on stuff I mentioned above.
Well yeah wolf crusher should only ever be used as part of uncustomised Wolborg ms. And that's only really because it works decently uncustomised and means you're not forced to buy parts to have a compatitive bey. Beywiki says pretty much the same about dragoon MF's RC. It can be used instead of grip flat core and the only reason it isn't is because it's rarer. I don't think it would make a difference since defence in HMS is so bad it couldn't stand up to either really.
Yeah, I know, I held out saying too much about Wolf Crusher because I wasn't sure if it was more defensive than it looked in pictures or not (it isn't). I suspect a lot of the current CC list is based on varied interpretation of beywiki, but we should be able to resolve all of this soon (and make sure it gets updated).

As for defense being pitiful, I'm not sure about that just yet. It may just be because my launch is so terrible at the moment but this combo seems to do very well for me - and I'm getting pretty decent movement patterns outta MWGFC/GFC:
AR: Samurai Upper
WD: 17.5g CWD w/ CWD Reverse Defenser, I think - it's like CWD Free Survivor (Thunder Dragon) but with 4 fins rather than 3.
RC: Bearing Core 2
So perhaps the extra speed from GFC (UM) combined with a good launch would be enough... I was using the defender in left spin and the attacker in right spin, which would be the most common-sense direction for each going in blind (attacker doesn't want to use left spin as all attack ar's are better in right, defender wants opposite spin to spin steal/protect vs upper, and a right spin v right spin matchup would be extremely bad, whereas left v left is just kinda not that good).
Though you'd be wary of using defense in most places as there's usually at least one person spamming wubbums.
I would also question CWD Defense Ring's position as a top-tier defense part, I don't see what advantages it really offers over CWD Free Survivor, God Ring, and CWD Reverse Defenser, though I haven't done much testing I'd think anything that improves absorption of hits from below would be a big priority in HMS Defense lol.

Anyway I'll try and do some testing on wolf crusher for proof today, and maybe some other stuff (mostly things that won't require any slide shooting haha).

One more thing, on re-reading the RSMS article, it mentions the combo listed as a wobbler has a lot of smash attack - but it's on bearing core, which causes repercussions I don't think I need to explain... I'll see if I can make the AR/SP setup work with Aero Knight's AR (as it does have decent synergy going for it if nothing else) on another RC but right now I'm not really seeing the point - or really how it won in that tournament where the finals were held in the tower stadium thingo (perhaps lack of a TR meant it did better on average in the recoil ko's or something?). I'll mess around with it some more I guess.

EDIT: Well I was going to do Wolf Crusher (Left) vs Advance Survivor (Right, oriented incorrectly for that spin direction) except after about 5 rounds it's obvious that Advance Survivor is at a massive advantage at the end of the battle, it always gets an extra rotation even if it touches the stadium first/has lower RPM throughout the battle for whatever reason. Seeing as I'm here to test whether WC is top tier not whether it is the absolute best, I'm going to swap to advance balancer instead, but yeah Advance Survivor is ridiculous.
EDIT 2: On doing so, it turns out that the RC I was using with WC spins freer than the one I used on AS - though that only makes AS more ridiculous. lolbearings, I'll swap to one of my other Bearing Cores, haha.
EDIT 3: Scratch that - Circle Upper is broke
I guess I'll just go ahead and doublepost this. It's important enough to warrant it anyways.

Okay so testing and notes and stuff. As mentioned in my previous post, I tried using Advance Survivor set up incorrectly for the spin direction and it had a very obvious LAD advantage, so I swapped to advance balancer, as I was only trying to see if Wolf Crusher is top tier, not whether it is the absolute best.

AR: Advance Balancer
WD: Circle Wide (14.47g)
RC: Bearing Core

AR: Wolf Crusher (Black, as my other three consist two near mint stickerless and one with slightly worn stickers, and I don't want to mess them up yet).
WD: Circle Wide (14.47g)
RC: Bearing Core

Equipment: Tornado Attack Stadium (New, stacked on top of another, the other has newspaper in the corners. Secured in place by two running shoes), 2x Dual Shooters (Oiled, no skipping (though that's more a winder thing in my experience)), 2x Winders (Straightened, both in practically mint condition - no skipping).

Both use the same BP mold – In fact both use Blue Dragoon MF BP's with sticker, though looking through my collection I only find two distinct molds, despite having Slash Riger and Jiraiya MS (both takara) amongst others, their BP's are the same as Dragoon MF, RSMS, and one of my DEMS BP's (Hasbro, I think). Both are completely tight, with either AR. Both WD's were weighed beforehand – I was lucky enough to have two of exactly identical weight.

Neither bearing core is mint but they are both in near-identical states of wear. AR's will be swapped after 10 rounds anyway. Wolf Crusher is in left spin as that is it's least recoily direction, might do some thorough testing in right some other time. The launchers are also consistent like the non-AR parts, so the first ten rounds the WC combo used the silver one, the second 10 rounds it used the black one. Basically, it was midday and I felt like making these tests SUPER ACCURATE just because I could.

Wolf Crusher v Advance Balancer Tests
Launches Alternated, Advance Survivor Launches first R1.
I've had to go with half a rotation being enough of a margin to win, because otherwise, just as in plastics, any zombie v zombie match ends in a draw. The way I see it, that rule should be "first one to actually stop rotating loses". Zombie v Zombie matches are always going to involve a judgement component anyway so.

Detailed Results (Click to View)
WC: 13/20 (12OS 1KO) = 65%
AB: 7/20 (all OS) = 35%

Well, that's unexpected. The possibilities as I see them are: Wolf Crusher is somehow way less recoily and better distributed than it should be, or Advance Balancer is not as good as it's supposed to be. Let's check their actual stamina rather than spin-stealing, anyway. Only 10 rounds because a) 20 rounds is boring and I have a lot to do and b) because I only want a vague indication of which is better here.

Advance Balancer Vs Wolf Crusher
Left Spin V Left Spin, alternated launches, AB launches first R1, AR's swapped after 5 rounds.
WC: 8/10 (6OS 2KO)
AB: 2/10 (1OS 1KO)

Conclusions: This is not really a surprise to me. Wolf Crusher weighs 19.6g, whereas Advance Balancer is a mere 14.04g. Advance Balancer is not a good stamina AR, but it has the properties needed for a good spin stealing AR.

Advance Survivor (Left Spin Defense/survival/whatever Mode) v Wolf Crusher Stamina tests
Both left Spin, alternated launches as launches first r1, ar's swapped after r5
WC: 7/10 (6OS, 1KO)
AS: 3/10 (2KO, 1 OS)

Advance Survivor is still significantly lighter than Wolf Crusher, at 17.6g, but this is a shock. It's worth mentioning given the aggression of these battles that the corners on Advance Survivor seem to have taken quite a bit of damage. They seem to cause quite a bit of recoil, and I wonder if a more aggressive zombie or a defensive zombie or something could exploit that...

Keep in mind, of course, that AS seems to beat Wolf Crusher hands down in opposite spin, however, and also that Wolf Crusher does not perform as well in right spin – in Right V Right, Advance Survivor seems to have the upper hand because of WC's Recoil, though I've only done a few rounds because I want to try some other stuff tonight that seems more important or at least more interesting to me, and getting even 10 rounds of that would take a long time given the aggression.

Still, at least right now, I see no strong reason to take wolf crusher down off the cc list. Quite a surprise.

Here are the condensed version of the notes I made while playing around with other stuff. These are all informal observations, but yeah.
-Circle Upper (Mold 2) is top tier for everything, and really, really great for zombies once the recoil is controlled
-17.5 CWD's can compensate for a Zombies recoil at a small stamina cost – circle upper, is good enough for this not to be an issue for it/to allow it to KO some other zombies, even if they use CWD Defense Ring. Neat!
-Samurai Upper is a bad choice for zombies and also worse defensively than Circle Upper, but the extra attack (which is noticeable) could be worth it for defensive zombies to stand a chance of KOing things that outspin them, though the recoil can result in self KO
-Wobblers still suck/are pointless, yes they can KO zombies in certain spin directions but so can a lot of things
-CWD Reverse Defenser is great, and better defensively than CWD Defense Ring
-Given that, Beywiki's info on Thunder Dragon needs updating as CWD Free Survivor is likely the best defensive CWD that is available to most people, and also probably pretty good for stamina
-Defense is terrible and I must have just been launching real bad yesterday. Rubber Sharp Core is also completely terrible, being KO'd by GFC (UM) and KO'd or OS'd by MWGFC, with samurai upper and 14.5g circle wide.
- GFC (UM) seems to beat MWGFC by KO a whole lot. I need to try GFC to see if that can survive it in a defensive setup, with the aim of finding a defense combination that is actually reliable.
-Defense is actually pretty useless against attack, but can KO regular zombies, though the most defensive zombie I tried (left spin wolf crusher, 17.5g cwd reverse defenser, bearing core) was basically insurmountable for Samurai Upper/EveryCWDITriedandalsoCircleWide/BC2. Damn shame, but at the same time a defensive zombie is much less likely to be KO'd or OS'd by the random stuff you face at tournaments, so there's still that going for them.
-Part of defense's trouble also stems from the lack of any good defensive AR's in HMS. Also from attack being deliciously good but you know. I intend to try to find something that can stand up to HMS attack (though at the same time, I really hope I don't, given how much I like the metagame as it is).
-My first BC2 is a dud, somehow, I think it's either off centre or the shaft is bent, not sure, but either way I take back anything I said about GFC(UM)+Circle Wide outspinning it, that only happens if the BC2 is a dud.
-While Circle Upper (Mold 2)+17.5g CWD God Ring just needs an RC swap to be the best for each type, it isn't actually game breaking – HMS is still attack > stamina >Defense > attack, though attack does beat defense a lot, this isn't a huge issue because it's also really hard to use. Still, the only reliable defense against Samurai Upper/14.5g Circle Wide/GFC (UM) I can find right now is "pray your opponent mislaunches a lot". I don't really mind that though, as it means winning is based on skill.
- Today really made me wish HMS weren't so expensive and hard to find, as the meta is one I would greatly enjoy playing in if people had easy access to competitive parts. (Also they are really cool tops)
-~200 rounds of beyblade in an afternoon is pretty tiring.
Told you defence types aren't good in HMS which is for the reasons you said. It needs an AR which is perfectly round or very nearly, which is flat with highish weight and good weight distribution. And HMS just doesn't have anything that fits that description unfortunately. The closest thing is Metal Ape from Magical Ape MS but the massive bumpish protrusions take away any defence ability it could have.
Yes well I was going by what I'd seen on a day where I wasn't really feeling it with my attack launch. I'm still going to try to play around but I really like HMS having no real defense combos haha.

Oh one more thing I left out of that post
-CWD Free Saucer is not a very good SP - it has pretty mediocre LAD so yeah not goode.

Should see about getting some of this info up on beywiki at some point...
th!nk, I am totally agree with you, I have to say only one think about the Free Saucer; it probably has some efficacy only under the Advance Balancer, do you agree? I've never tried it in a competitive match, so I am not totally sure of its effectiveness Smile
The main issue with free saucer is that it has pretty poor LAD compared to something like CWD Free Survivor/Reverse Defenser/God Ring (though I only have Reverse Defenser, they all share the round-edged thing that provides them with some good LAD) or Circle Wide, and Advance Balancer is mainly used as a zombie AR - i.e. it needs LAD. CWD Free Survivor, being three-sided, should have pretty decent synergy with it as it is, though I don't have one to say for sure.

It sure looks neat though! (Especially as I have them both in off white haha.)

Anyways, didn't do much today, played around with this combo:
AR: Magical Ape MS
WD: 17.5G CWD Reverse Defenser
RC: Metal Change Core
for defense. Took hits about as well as anything else I've tried when used in left spin, but it doesn't have enough LAD to not get outspun by a rotation or so. I think this is just because MAMS's AR has horrible stamina, given the combo got outspun by Samurai Upper/14.5g Circle Wide/MWGFC in a right spin v right spin matchup.
The concept was basically that the SP would absorb a lot of the hits, as attackers shouldn't be able to get under them and the AR is so tiny, and Change tips take hits decently enough. I think the HMS defense problem is two-pronged, there's not really any good AR's for a low height where the lack of good tips requires it, and the only good tips are tall in a generation composed almost entirely of slopes. Plus, GFC(UM) has so much grip... But still, while I know finding a good defense combo in HMS is likely futile - not a huge part selection so just about everything has been tried, I still want to keep tinkering, haha.

EDIT 2: Jiraiya Blade/17.5G CWD Defense Ring/Battle Change Core or whatever SCMS's RC is, with the RC held in attack mode by the bumps of defense ring, seems pretty neat. Won't handle GFC (UM) but seems to do okay against MWGFC from the few rounds I did before I had to pack up my stuff for the night. Kinda an anti-attack combo, albeit more attack-focussed than defensive, only used right spin as I suspect the RC will have some recoil issues in left. Should say that GFC (UM) managed to split the RC apart, but I don't think it was screwed together properly beforehand. Fast moving metal hitting fast moving plastic always makes me nervous, though.