How come God Ring is there for attack? Also, is using Metal Ape with Grip Flat to counter Bearing Core something you guys have discovered since delving back into HMS. I don't remember seeing that and I haven't tried it.

As far as force smash goes, Metal Ape with the running core from Round Shell MS is a Bearing Core Killer when they are in the same spin direction. You can use another AR if you want.

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Credit for the avatar and sig go to Nic. THANK YOU!

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The debate here was whether Force Smash was competitive enough. Would you say it is?

Good to see you posting, by the way

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I've just been really busy lately with school and training.

Generally, no. Force Smash combos aren't something you see competitively. Actually, in my opinion, using that running core against Bearing Core combos is the only truly successful force smash, at least from what I've seen. It's just that Bearing Core is so dominant in Tornado Balance that using something so niche becomes viable competitively. You might argue that it wouldn't be viable since you'd have to be in the same spin direction, but that's actually also true for any other kind of counter you'd make for a Bearing Core Combo, except that with Round Shell MS's RC all you have to do is shoot straight. The other option would be to just use another Bearing Core Combo.

Every time I write something like this I have this thought: All HMS battles should be conducted in Tornado Attack. IT such a balanced stadium. Bearing Core doesn't cause too many problems in it.



EDIT:
I'm not sure if remember this correctly, but I think this combo beats your entire Stamina list, at least if they are both in right spin:
AR: Circle Upper
WD: Circle Wide
RC: Bearing Core

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Credit for the avatar and sig go to Nic. THANK YOU!

START LIVING BEFORE YOU START DYING

Ahh, well it's great to see you

Honestly, the "Tornado Attack should be the main stadium for HMS/Plastics" thing is a really common opinion among players who have used one for Plastics or HMS.
It really is the best stadium TT produced, for those generations at least (for MFB, I prefer BB-10, mainly because it's more KO-friendly and MFB are so heavy that that's generally a good thing). If only they had made the plastic thicker (maybe it's because of the fact I use such aggressive combos for plastics). It's also the only stadium from that Era still available on eBay, in sonokong sets, which is nice.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

EDIT:
I'm not sure if remember this correctly, but I think this combo beats your entire Stamina list, at least if they are both in right spin:
AR: Circle Upper
WD: Circle Wide
RC: Bearing Core

One of the more basic combos I think, Good and vvery useful, but basic. I'm going to add circle upper to the list thoguh, it's worth ptutting on.

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Actually, in my opinion, using that running core against Bearing Core combos is the only truly successful force smash, at least from what I've seen. It's just that Bearing Core is so dominant in Tornado Balance that using something so niche becomes viable competitively. You might argue that it wouldn't be viable since you'd have to be in the same spin direction, but that's actually also true for any other kind of counter you'd make for a Bearing Core Combo, except that with Round Shell MS's RC all you have to do is shoot straight. The other option would be to just use another Bearing Core Combo.

How come God Ring is there for attack? Also, is using Metal Ape with Grip Flat to counter Bearing Core something you guys have discovered since delving back into HMS. I don't remember seeing that and I haven't tried it.

As far as force smash goes, Metal Ape with the running core from Round Shell MS is a Bearing Core Killer when they are in the same spin direction. You can use another AR if you want.

Defense
WD: CWD God Ring, CWD Defense Ring, Rubber Weight Core

Rubber Weight Core may only have a semi-flat tip, but it can take smash attack hits and crush Bearing Core like nobody's business. Perhaps a note about that next to it in the Defense list so others won't get confused?

I think we've come to a consensus here, gentlemen.

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"In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new. The world is often unkind to new talent, new creations. The new needs friends. Last night, I experienced something new: an extraordinary meal from a singularly unexpected source. To say that both the meal and its maker have challenged my preconceptions about fine cooking is a gross understatement. They have rocked me to my core. In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau's famous motto, "Anyone can cook." But I realize, only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist; but a great artist can come from anywhere."

-Anton Ego/Peter O'Toole (1932-2013)

I'm not too sure about how it fairs against attack types. I remember outspinning Rubber Weight Core with attack types. I could be wrong though. I don't remember clearly.

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Credit for the avatar and sig go to Nic. THANK YOU!

START LIVING BEFORE YOU START DYING

I've only been able to do that with Metal Flat Core, and normally Rubber Weight Core can outspin rubber-bottomed attack. (This was back when I was playing HMS in 2006 for a month in India, this was somebody else's RWC).

But like I stated and other know, it is weak to Upper Attack but is still rather viable.

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"In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new. The world is often unkind to new talent, new creations. The new needs friends. Last night, I experienced something new: an extraordinary meal from a singularly unexpected source. To say that both the meal and its maker have challenged my preconceptions about fine cooking is a gross understatement. They have rocked me to my core. In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau's famous motto, "Anyone can cook." But I realize, only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist; but a great artist can come from anywhere."

-Anton Ego/Peter O'Toole (1932-2013)

Curious, why is CWD Free Survivor listed for survival, despite only being mentioned for defense in its article, and why is it not listed for defense (I get that it's lighter but the free spin could give it a hand against upper attack which is kinda useful for Bearing Core 2 as far as I know). Which one is the oversight?

Also, the Reverse Defenser ( Dranzer MF RBA4 Secret Black Ver., Dranzer RBA5 Yellow Ver.) is mentioned in a few places as a survival CWD?

Just checking is all, could be way off :3

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Reverse Defenser is used as a survival CWD, but mostly for spin stealing.

In terms of Free Survivor, God Ring is considered the better free-spinner for defense. However, the shape of Free Survivor would allow for spin-stealing and gives nice survival properties, which is why it's on survival.

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"In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new. The world is often unkind to new talent, new creations. The new needs friends. Last night, I experienced something new: an extraordinary meal from a singularly unexpected source. To say that both the meal and its maker have challenged my preconceptions about fine cooking is a gross understatement. They have rocked me to my core. In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau's famous motto, "Anyone can cook." But I realize, only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist; but a great artist can come from anywhere."

-Anton Ego/Peter O'Toole (1932-2013)

Why isn't Free Survivor on defense? I'm guessing weight, but stilll... And perhaps something should be submitted to update the article?

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

This thread is pretty diverse in opinions on what shouldbe included. I'm wondering if maybe it isn't time to start posting tests and getting a bit more rigor behind our respective positions?

Perhaps, yes. Stadiums are a huge factor in testing older systems, I know for plastics MFB just isn't well balanced, it's way too KO-friendly. I don't know about HMS, but yeah.

As for my last few posts, I'm just going off what I've read, haha. I don't own any HMS as yet, still in the mail :3

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Most people have stated that the BB-10 is fine for HMS, if I'm remembering right.

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Some manner of Octopus.

Arupaeo:
No there isn't. Ga'Hooleone keeps suggesting stuff which isn't competitive.

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I do not think Arupaeo's statement was a queue to start pointing fingers and whining, in point of fact.

Testing should be done if people cannot come to a consensus about parts, just like with MFB and Plastics.

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Some manner of Octopus.

I don't really think that was whining but there's like a grand total of like 10 people posted here and Ga'holeone is the only one suggesting things which in my opinion as someone with a large amount of HMS knowledge are wrong. We don't really need a consensus when it's one person suggesting something do we? I'm sorry that I want this to be correct. Clearly that's awful of me. Anyway we have wiki articles on like everything for HMS so if they were useful then wouldn't it have been written in those?

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That didn't quite go the way I had intended.

First, I had hoped that we could use tests to amicably resolve differences of opinion. As you point out, the onus of testing falls on the person making the new claim - not the other way around. "Making a claim? Post the test results to back it up!" I would have thought that this would be well received.

The second issue is that due to the lack of Tornado Attack stadiums (and others) most people who are new to the HMS scene today will be testing in BB-10. It's legal for play, but it is different than Tornado Attack. New tests in BB-10's would be useful as there is a significant difference in the performance of MSUV RC (from what I gather) which might open the metagame up quite a bit from the HMS cannon.

I thoroughly support the idea that people should post tests when bringing up a new combo here. If others aren't convinced without testing, testing would serve as the primary means of convincing - and those who have the parts should be encouraged to try ideas out themselves, too.

MFB has the advantage of most of the people "deep in the know" about it having most of the parts necessary to test competitive combos. HMS does not have this luxury, in most cases, which makes it even more important for those who do to provide tests.

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Some manner of Octopus.

Really, the main thing I've been pointing out is Round Shell, which is definitely competitive. As Cye put it, it defeated Wolborg, which was a large part of the metagame. That makes it competitive in the first place.

Now, I can't test against Wolborg, we're a bit too late on that part because my Bearing Core is shattered, but previous tests have proved what I've been saying. I honestly don't see why you have such a huge problem against me, Ultra. I will get around to testing against DEMS later today or tomorrow, but I am going to show that what I've been trying to point out to you for some time now is definitely correct.

I brought up Force Smash, and you explained (albeit bluntly) that it wasn't competitive. I asked why, but didn't bring it up again. I brought up Metal Ape, which has been used not only as a Compact AR but for Defense too, and it was thrown away, along with others. Fine, whatever, but not one of the parts I mentioned wasn't used with at least moderate success at a point in time. Testing will help prove what I'm saying, but please stop trying to make every single suggestion that I've made as utter poison to your wonderful and impeccable knowledge of HMS.

Anyways, I'll get around to testing with what I still have (obviously no more survival or normal defense for me, until I can buy a Jiraiya and another Wolborg) later today, if not tomorrow.

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"In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new. The world is often unkind to new talent, new creations. The new needs friends. Last night, I experienced something new: an extraordinary meal from a singularly unexpected source. To say that both the meal and its maker have challenged my preconceptions about fine cooking is a gross understatement. They have rocked me to my core. In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau's famous motto, "Anyone can cook." But I realize, only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist; but a great artist can come from anywhere."

-Anton Ego/Peter O'Toole (1932-2013)

Sorry if i'm blunt but here's my opinion on the things you just said:

Round Shell: Yes it's good but it's a niche combo. It doesn't really belong in the types.
Metal Ape: Compacts were pretty nonexistant in HMS(due to the whole generation being compact unlike plastics) and there are better things for defence like Samurai upper, circle upper and Jiraiya blade.
Force Smash: I don't really know what to say here. Most have no idea what they even are and Cye said they weren't competitive.

Also those weren't the only things you said. You also though Samurai Changer's and Dark Leopard's RCs were competitively useful which they aren't. Fun to play and kinda useful for some things but not competitive.

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I'll let you guys know once I have my HMS what I think of the stadiums. Obviously, I'm still new to HMS, but I do know the stadiums quite well, and honestly, given their smaller size, BB-10 might work nicely for HMS. Just guessing.

I want to see the round shell combo tested against a wider variety of opponents. Hopefully, I won't need to buy one to do this, but Brad seems to at least find it a fun combo, and it is a reliable option against wolborg MS, as well as Defense, I'd imagine, which I would consider a significant portion of the metagame. I'd be interested in seeing how it handles attackers, and things with the Metal Change RC.

Jiraiya blade isn't listed for defense, should it be?

And Ultra, thoughts on CWD Free Survivor?


Also, guys, play nicer please. Just try to be more respectful of each others opinions, and if you're going to argue, do it with testing. I dislike seeing two of my friends arguing so spitefully, it brings back bad memories of the days of the nicknamed combinations.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Free survivor is good for zombies. Doesn't have any use anywhere else.

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'Kay, what about CWD Reverse Defenser? Just making sure we don't miss something, seeing as I've seen it mentioned in a few places in zombies/survival combos.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Same uses really. I think they probably have uses in both types.

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