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Defense Reformation!

Aug. 04, 2014  2:37 AM
 
This is moving along quite nicely, can you test rb on e230, I don't think it is as good as RSf or cs for this job.
Aug. 04, 2014  3:02 AM
 
(Aug. 04, 2014  2:37 AM)Thumbnail Wrote: This is moving along quite nicely, can you test rb on e230, I don't think it is as good as RSf or cs for this job.

I honestly feel like a stock, mint RB would do horrible on E230, as it is shaped rather like a ball. I wouldn't really picture a more worn down one like TʜᴇBʟᴀᴄᴋDʀᴀɢᴏɴ's doing all that horrible, though, however, CS would still most definitely be a better choice.

I myself never took too much of a liking to RSF on E230 variants myself. It's like wobble central, haha.
Aug. 04, 2014  3:19 PM
 
I tested it informally, an actually, even when it's brand new, it's not really that bad (better than CS for me, but I don't get great results with CS, so that could be a worthless comparison for some of you).

A worn one brings the house down, though. Definitely better than CS in that case (probably even for someone who gets great results for CS - a worn RB might be the best Bottom for the job on E230, perhaps a close second to RDF). I theorize it may be because RB is really tall. I'm not sure if its actually taller than RDF, but generally height is a good thing to have on E230 whatever the combination you're using.
Aug. 04, 2014  3:27 PM
 
(Aug. 04, 2014  3:19 PM)TʜᴇBʟᴀᴄᴋDʀᴀɢᴏɴ Wrote: I tested it informally, an actually, even when it's brand new, it's not really that bad (better than CS for me, but I don't get great results with CS, so that could be a worthless comparison for some of you).

A worn one brings the house down, though. Definitely better than CS in that case (probably even for someone who gets great results for CS - a worn RB might be the best Bottom for the job on E230, perhaps a close second to RDF). I theorize it may be because RB is really tall. I'm not sure if its actually taller than RDF, but generally height is a good thing to have on E230 whatever the combination you're using.

It is also has more contact, it would appear that the fact that cs is a sharp based tip, it is becoming less useful in many situations, due to more specialized defensive tips.
Aug. 07, 2014  4:57 PM
 
(Jul. 27, 2014  2:13 PM)*Ginga* Wrote: OK, now that I have time to make a response, here I go.

I am all up for removing CS on BD145 however on E230 I say no. E230 alone is pretty hard to KO with out a really goood launch and some aggressive Wyvangs. Also, E230 has OSes mid-height Stamina and can take care of Attack (though not without a fight). ShinobuXD once quite nearly soloed my tourney in Oklahoma using MSF Reviser Killerken E230CS. His CS was quite calm, and Attack had some trouble with it did to E230 and mid-height Stamina had a lot of trouble OSing it with the combined Stamina of CS and the destabilization of E230.

I'm fine with removing Duo for normal Defense customs, though Duo BD145RF is something I think we all should look into more. Otherwise I haven't seen Duo Defense in a tournament in ages.

I additionally haven't seen an RB/RSF defense custom on BD145 really, ever, haha. RDF is superior in so many ways that these days RB/RSF aren't even considered if choosing a defense custom in a tourney.

I say yes for adding RF, though I think before this happens we need to draw a fine line between "aggressive Defense" and "Anti-Attack." We don't want people assuming Girago Girago BD145RF and Genbull Genbull BD145RF are one and the same type. However my definition of Anti-Attack is a heavy aggressively designed MW/Synchrome that is set up on BD145RF/R2F so it can KO pretty much anything. However Defense's goal is to OS Attack, or if need be, KO it. Genbull Genbull BD145RF won't have trouble KOig Attack, however against Stamina it might have some trouble, making it more of a Defense type.

Yes, please remove RSF from E230. It wobbles more than Duo 230MB, no joke.
I love that combo! By the way, I didn't even use a metal face, and it still did well. It can actually out spin a lot of things, and will usually beat right spin attack in a tourney.

I wouldn't think anyone would use RB/RSF on BD145, unless they didn't have RDF. I say they go.

I don't know much about RF synchrome defense. No comment.

E230 RSF should go. So wobbly.

I always liked MF-H Duo Cancer BD145 RDF/worn RB. It beat synchrome attackers.
Aug. 07, 2014  6:22 PM
 
Last part: It did? details? pretty please?

Good to see you post, by the way. Smile
Aug. 08, 2014  12:01 AM
 
I'm a huge fan of RB. I've found that it does extremely well on pretty much any height, though BD145 is an exception - I was never really comfortable with using anything other than RDF and CS on BD145. Without CS's Stamina or RDF's outer ring to stop scraping, I've not really been impressed with BD145 Defense; from what I've seen, it often winds up scraping and sometimes will fail to OS the Attack type it's going against. I don't mind seeing it and RSF leaving BD145, but it really needs to stay on E230. My RB is about halfway between TBD's worn and mint RBs, and I haven't had any issues with skipping the Tornado Ridge.

I do like E230RSF, but RB and RDF are far better options defensively. I guess it can go too.

BTW I also really like Revizer Killerken E230CS; it's got a good deal of Stamina without sacrificing too much Defense. It also can do the same grinding/destabilization trick as Genbull^2 E230MB, though not quite as well. I'd personally like to see a few CS combo(s) stay on the tier list, though possibly moved to Balance, since, at this point, CS is more of a Defense/Stamina hybrid than an actual Defense option.
Aug. 08, 2014  12:34 AM
 
(Aug. 08, 2014  12:01 AM)Cake Wrote: I'd personally like to see a few CS combo(s) stay on the tier list, though possibly moved to Balance, since, at this point, CS is more of a Defense/Stamina hybrid than an actual Defense option.

Eeeexactly. Took the words right out of my mouth.
Aug. 08, 2014  1:29 AM
 
(Aug. 08, 2014  12:34 AM)TʜᴇBʟᴀᴄᴋDʀᴀɢᴏɴ Wrote:
(Aug. 08, 2014  12:01 AM)Cake Wrote: I'd personally like to see a few CS combo(s) stay on the tier list, though possibly moved to Balance, since, at this point, CS is more of a Defense/Stamina hybrid than an actual Defense option.

Eeeexactly. Took the words right out of my mouth.

It took three pages for us to make any actuall progress, we aren't a very efficient machine, are we? Oh well, I really don't know what we are to talk about, I have no problem with the defensive tier list (though I only really use stamina beys). Tbd, could you give us a new topic to squabble over for the next few days?
Aug. 08, 2014  2:05 AM
 
(Aug. 08, 2014  1:29 AM)Pyro-Shotty Wrote:
(Aug. 08, 2014  12:34 AM)TʜᴇBʟᴀᴄᴋDʀᴀɢᴏɴ Wrote:
(Aug. 08, 2014  12:01 AM)Cake Wrote: I'd personally like to see a few CS combo(s) stay on the tier list, though possibly moved to Balance, since, at this point, CS is more of a Defense/Stamina hybrid than an actual Defense option.

Eeeexactly. Took the words right out of my mouth.

It took three pages for us to make any actuall progress, we aren't a very efficient machine, are we? Oh well, I really don't know what we are to talk about, I have no problem with the defensive tier list (though I only really use stamina beys). Tbd, could you give us a new topic to squabble over for the next few days?

Whoa you came at him kinda hard... Point taken but damn...

I thought you wanted CS removed from the tier list completely -.- But oh well XD
Aug. 08, 2014  2:09 AM
 
(Aug. 08, 2014  2:05 AM)DrPepsidew Wrote:
(Aug. 08, 2014  1:29 AM)Pyro-Shotty Wrote:
(Aug. 08, 2014  12:34 AM)TʜᴇBʟᴀᴄᴋDʀᴀɢᴏɴ Wrote: Eeeexactly. Took the words right out of my mouth.

It took three pages for us to make any actuall progress, we aren't a very efficient machine, are we? Oh well, I really don't know what we are to talk about, I have no problem with the defensive tier list (though I only really use stamina beys). Tbd, could you give us a new topic to squabble over for the next few days?

Whoa you came at him kinda hard... Point taken but damn...

I thought you wanted CS removed from the tier list completely -.- But oh well XD
What do you mean, that is just how I speak.
But I never knew what he wanted to do with cs either, he might have posted it and I just not have seen. But I'm saying if he would have just said "let's move cs to balance" I would have be en like "fine." I think that while I enjoyed the testing, it was pointless when his point was something so simple.
Aug. 08, 2014  2:12 AM
 
Yeah I thought he wanted it gone completely, and my bad, never seen you post before hah. Don't quite know your tone yet Smile
Aug. 11, 2014  10:28 PM
 
(Aug. 08, 2014  2:09 AM)Pyro-Shotty Wrote: What do you mean, that is just how I speak.
But I never knew what he wanted to do with cs either, he might have posted it and I just not have seen. But I'm saying if he would have just said "let's move cs to balance" I would have be en like "fine." I think that while I enjoyed the testing, it was pointless when his point was something so simple.

... I don't think the testing was not pointless. In fact,I'd say it's the most valuable thing in this thread.

My point was pretty clear. Remove CS from the Defense section. It's in the most important post of the thread; the opening post.

I did not say I wanted CS "moved to Balance," because it's already in Balance. What I'm saying is that that's the only place I think it should be (and, to be clear, not every CS custom removed from Defense would show up in the Balance section - for instance, MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145CS would probably get tossed, since, with so little Stamina in the wheel, it's more like a bad Defense combination than a Balance custom).

BTW, I'd say we've made some progress. Lot's of it actually. We have the opinions of several different users and a sufficient amount of testing. I'd say we're a lot better off than when we started.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention - I did post that point earlier in the thread (multiple time IIRC). Post #36, page 2.
Sep. 10, 2014  9:56 PM
 
So who's ready to nail this thing in the head?

I'd propose taking this to the advanced forum:

Defense Section Wrote:
DEFENSE


Duo
  • MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 RF

Revizer/Killerken
  • MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) (Revizer/Killerken) BD145 RDF
  • MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) Killerken BD145 RF
  • MSF-H Revizer (Revizer/Killerken) E230 (CS/RDF/RB)

Genbull
  • MSF-H Revizer Genbull E230 (CS/RDF/RB)
  • MSF-H (Revizer/Genbull) Genbull BD145 (RDF/RF)

This is the list I gathered from counting votes on each update, so we should all agree on this one.

I'm still not crazy about classifying E230CS customs as Defense, but hey, compromise.
Sep. 13, 2014  2:59 AM
 
Personally not happy with it but go for it
Sep. 13, 2014  3:05 AM
 
Just realized: Has there even been any BD145RF testing? I really don't think it's that useful of a combo. Nor does Duo or Reviser have any smash to work with like Girago. Plus, the defenition of a Defense type is "... moving relatively still..." RF has a ton of movement even on a synchrome.
Sep. 13, 2014  3:14 AM
 
(Sep. 13, 2014  3:05 AM)Echizen Wrote: Just realized: Has there even been any BD145RF testing? I really don't think it's that useful of a combo. Nor does Duo or Reviser have any smash to work with like Girago. Plus, the defenition of a Defense type is "... moving relatively still..." RF has a ton of movement even on a synchrome.

Duo BD145RF has been tested in the past, yes (see the OP - I linked one of my combination threads there - I did testing for MSF-H Genbull Genbull BD145RF).

The point of a Defense type is not to try and fit a definition; it's to avoid KO from an Attack type, which RF-based Defenders do with unparalleled consistency.

BTW, Duo BD145RF was top-tier Defense for quite a while back in the 4D era.

@Dr. Soda Pop: What don't you like about it?
Sep. 13, 2014  3:36 AM
 
And what about Anti-Attack, more or less the same, huh?
Sep. 13, 2014  4:04 PM
 
http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Defense-...pid1226142

http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Defense-...pid1226362

http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Defense-...pid1226364
Sep. 13, 2014  5:55 PM
 
(Sep. 10, 2014  9:56 PM)TʜᴇBʟᴀᴄᴋDʀᴀɢᴏɴ Wrote:
DEFENSE

Duo
  • MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 RF

Nyeh, I don't really like this; Duo_BD145RF seems like more of an Anti-Attack setup that lacks in providing a good, decent amount of smash. I personally don't mind (Reviser/Killerken/Genbull) BD145RF as much, however, with Duo's light weight, I don't see it doing well, whatsoever.

Anywho, I got three tests done, not much, though something, utilizing Duo Cancer BD145RF:

Battle Notes:
  • The opposing variation will be launched first all rounds.
  • While Metal Ball is in its prime, both B:D and CS are semi-aggro on certain launch.
Duo Cancer BD145RF vs MSF-H Reviser Dragoon B:D:
Spoiler (Click to View)

Duo Cancer BD145RF vs MSF-H Reviser Genbull E230CS:
Spoiler (Click to View)

Duo Cancer BD145RF vs MSF-M Girago Girago E230MB:
Spoiler (Click to View)

On another note, aside from Duo_BD145RF, the list looks fine, to me at least. Great work, TʜᴇBʟᴀᴄᴋDʀᴀɢᴏɴ!
Sep. 13, 2014  8:25 PM
 
It would have made more sense to test vs Attack though...
Sep. 13, 2014  8:44 PM
 
(Sep. 13, 2014  8:25 PM)Cake Wrote: It would have made more sense to test vs Attack though...

Damn, you're actually right about that, I apologize, however, from playing around with this setup earlier on, I myself saw that both Flash and Balro Balro attack setups were able to win against i almost always, for the most part.
Sep. 14, 2014  2:06 AM
 
Guys, Duo BD145RF is not supposed to have any smash whatsoever. It shouldn't be able to KO Stamina combinations. It's a pure, pure Defense combination, that just so happens to move in a wide circular pattern during battle.

It is not an Anti-Attack custom. It is completely different.
Nov. 27, 2014  5:06 PM
 
Hey guys!

So, I was planning on taking this to the advanced forum over Christmas Break this year (it'll likely take a while for everyone to reach a consensus, and I don't really have time for it right now). Is there anything that you guys think should be changed?

I personally think it's pretty much perfect. I'm ridiculously excited about this. XD

EDIT: Oh, and for anyone who might still be confused about the definition of "Anti-Attack," here's the Beywiki article to look at.
Jan. 02, 2015  3:23 PM
 
Hey, I just got these 50 rounds with MSF-H Genbull Genbull BD145RF done; I've taken a huge liking towards RF Based within the course of the last while. Here it is, along with some thoughts of your version of the list, TheBlackDragon.

Seeing as I alternated every 25 rounds, though I split them into two, one where Genbull is launched first all matches and another where Flash is, for more accurate results. The overall results were still calculated.

MSF-H Genbull Genbull BD145RF versus MF-H Flash Pegasis II W105RF
Both RFs in their Prime • Flash Launched Second all Matches
Genbull Genbull • 16/25 (10 OS, 6 KO) 64% Win Rate
Flash Pegasis • 9/25 (7 OS, 2 KO) 46%

MSF-H Genbull Genbull BD145RF versus MF-H Flash Pegasis II W105RF
Both RFs in their Prime • Genbull Launched Second all Matches
Genbull Genbull • 22/25 (18 OS, 4 KO) 88% Win Rate
Flash Pegasis • 3/25 (2 OS, 1 KO) 12% Win Rate

Okay, that's a pretty big difference in result; Genbull Genbull went from a 64% win rate from from being launched first all matches to 88 from being launched second all matches. I do think this had to do with BD145 being added to Genbull Genbull, causing it to slow down, though. Flash was also able to stall out or win by outspin, even with contact towards Genbull. The outcome was somewhat decent, however; Genbull Genbull pulled through with 38/50; a 76% win rate.

Even though Flash managed to win by outspin multiple different matches, considering that only three were won by KO, it's a pretty big accomplishment. Any chance you'd guys want me to redo that testing at all, still?

In terms of the tier-list, I'm a pretty big fan of Synchrome BD145RF-based setups, so I support them being up there, haha. I do think Duo BD145RF should possibly go up there, too. From what I heard, it was once initially up on a previous tier-list, am I wrong? Maybe now with Synchrome-based Attack setups, it could be played around with a little more. I do think it's ready to go, aside from that. Smile

Edit: May I ask, @[Kei], since your opinion should matter a lot: What do you think about RF-based defense and them being on the tier-list? Have you ever had experience with any yourself?

I'm a pretty major supporter of TBD's list, although I do think Duo defense setups aside from BD145RF should still continue to be up there.
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