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+---- Thread: Defense Reformation! (/Thread-Defense-Reformation)
Defense Reformation! - [)ragon - Jul. 26, 2014
:: Tier List Proposal ::
Defense Reformation!
Defense Reformation!
You guys have noooo idea how long I've waiting to write this. Super excited!
Anywho, this thread takes an in-depth look at the Defense section of the tier list, in an attempt to weed out the weak points and reinforce the set of combinations we have in order to compile a list of competitive Defense types that are actually applicable against today's high-powered Attackers.
To make things simpler, I'll just post the Defense section of the current competitive list here:
Current Defense Section Wrote:DEFENSE
Duo
- MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 (RDF/RB)
- MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) E230 (RDF/RSF/RB/CS)
Revizer/Killerken
- MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) (Revizer/Killerken) BD145 (RDF/RB/CS/RSF)
- MSF-H Revizer (Revizer/Killerken) E230 (RDF/RSF/CS/RB)
Genbull
- MSF-H Revizer Genbull E230 (RDF/RB/RSF/CS)
- MSF-H (Revizer/Genbull) Genbull BD145 (RDF/RB/RSF)
I think we can all agree that there are Defense types on the list now that simply aren't good enough to be there. I mean come on, MSF-H Killerken Killerken BD145CS? That's a recipe for disaster right there. You're no better off than a Stamina custom against a Wyvang Attacker at that point (or any other competitive Attack type, for that matter - Even a well placed hit from Flash could shred the thing easily).
Yes, I understand the testing environment vs. tournament setting variable, but to be honest there's a certain point where you simply can't apply that anymore. If you're hitting 80% against a given Defense custom with an Attack type in a controlled testing environment, you can't just say "Oh, it's all good. There's no way my opponent will get that same number in a tournament match." Well, yes, this is true to some extent, but the number is so insanely high that even if your opponent's chances are decreased by the variables met in a tournament scenario, he still has more than a good shot at taking you down.
Regardless, whether or not you interpret the numbers in light of tournament variables as severely problematic to the Attack custom itself, the point still stands that if a Defense Beyblade is only hitting 20-30% against a given Attack Beyblade that isn't particularly specialized in beating that particular Defense variant*, it's not a very reliable custom.
*Specialized matchups, like Wyvang Dragooon SA165R2F vs. Revizer Killerken E230RSF, don't apply here, as the Attack type is specifically designed to win against this variant of Defense. Every Defense type is gonna have a specific Attacker it has some trouble with, but we're looking at its overall performance against the competitive Attack meta. If Defense type A loses to Attack type B, but wins consistently against Attack types A, C and D, then it's definitely applicable, even if it can't quite hold out against Attack type A.
In a nutshell, if a Defense combo only hits like 25% against an Attack combo, regardless of whether or not the Attack combo will win in a tournament setting (which is very possible), the Defense type probably isn't a very reliable choice. :\
This begs the question: "Which Defense variants are reliable, and which ones aren't?"
Well, since this is a proposal involving changes to the Defense section of the tier list, I'll be giving my opinions on changes, as well as explanations along with the way, so that should answer the above question.
Proposal #1
Remove CS from all Defense customs
Remove CS from all Defense customs
The thing just doesn't have the grip to deal with competitive Attack types anymore. The fact that it's still considered competitive after so long is a testament to how good it used to be, but to be perfectly honest, I think it's time for it to kick the bucket. It's been on shaky ground since the release/initial testing of Flash, and things have only gotten worse since then. It'd be a pity to see it go, but having it up there makes me very uneasy.
Proposal #2
Remove all Duo Defense customs
Remove all Duo Defense customs
I know, I know - it does really well avoiding KOs from Wyvang!
Well, it don't matter how well you can stay inside the stadium if you can't keep spinning. Duo has such a low overhang and such light weight, that I've found it easy to make it scrape to death on BD145 with any right-spin Synchrom Attacker. Flash also rips it to shreds on the side.
I used to be a proponent of Duo Defense, but that was mostly due to the fact that I own a Duo that has unspeakably kick-butt Defensive qualities for some reason, and my mind was quickly changed after testing with other Duos and watching them get tossed silly around the stadium. It's just too lightweight and flimsy.
To top it all off, now that Wyvang's aggressive mold has been discovered, I've found it much more capable of trashing Duo than the calm mold, with which I did my testing on the subject against my laugh-in-your-face-and-sit-there-like-an-unmoveable-boulder Duo, and Bahamdia Dragooon doesn't seem to have much trouble with it either.
So, it's light, flimsy, liable to scrape on BD145 against anything of sufficient weight, and not all that hard to KO after all. I'd be sad to see it go, as I expect most of you would, but even with a smooth shape, 42 grams vs. Today's 63 gram Synchromes isn't cutting it anymore.
(Just a note - if a specific one of my other proposals is accepted, Duo won't be wiped out entirely, but only if...)
Proposal #3
Remove RSF/RB from BD145 Defense
Remove RSF/RB from BD145 Defense
They. Just. Don't. Work.
Yes, they're rubber, yes, they've done great in the past, but I can hit 75% against Revizer BD145RB with Flash pretty easily nowadays, and with Balro and Wyvang... yeesh. IMO they don't have the goods to work on BD145 anymore. RDF is so, so, so much better in every way, that I honestly wouldn't even consider using either one if I had an RDF with me.
And that's just Revizer vs. Flash. Think of Killerken vs. Wyvang guys (that matchup is literally 100% every time). Stationary BD145 Defense is on such absurdly thin ice from my perspective right now, the idea of listing it with anything besides RDF seems unthinkable (the only reason I'd leave BD145RDF there, rather than wiping out stationary D145 Defense entirely, is because there's isn't much else to deal with Dragooon Attack types, which it does pretty well against). The stuff is just too flimsy. The highest I can hit with a BD145RSF/RB Defense type against a competitive Attack type is like 35%, and that's against weak stuff with a shaky launch.
Proposal #4
Add RF to Killerken/Genbull BD145 Defense (and dependently existing Duo Defense)
Add RF to Killerken/Genbull BD145 Defense (and dependently existing Duo Defense)
BD145 has lost the ever-inconsistent RSF and RB! Its Bottom selection is too limited! What shall we do??
*SWOOSH *
In flies RF, the savior of BD145 Defense types everywhere! RF-based Defense is inexplicably more effective against Attack than stationary BD145 Defense. It just takes hits so, so much better (like, to the point where it can actually win consistently, even in a testing environment). I've posted a thread alongside this one - MSF-H Genbull Genbull BD145RF, so we have testing to look at.
Revizer is excluded simply because it lacks the necessary Stamina to work well. Killerken and Genbull have no problem out-spinning the current competitive Attack wheels we have, but Revizer has trouble a lot of the time.
Here's where we get into the "If this gets the thumbs up, Duo hangs in there" thing. Duo is really, really, really great on BD145RF. It's fast, manuverable, and has the Stamina to work the setup perfectly. If RF ends up in the Defense section, IMO Duo should go right back up with it.
This does not include E230 Defense types. E230 Defense has too little Stamina to hold up on RF. E230RF would be virtually immoveable, but, again, avoiding KO doesn't really matter if you can't keep spinning while you're doing it.
Proposal #5
Remove RSF from E230 Defense
Remove RSF from E230 Defense
I made this separate from the removal proposal concerning BD145 Defense, as distinguishing the difference might help keep discussion clear, since I expect a lot more of you to oppose this change than then former.
RSF doesn't have all that much more Defense than CS. It's just kinda weak. E230 is a strong Defensive Track, but aggressive molds of Wyvang, Balro and Dragooon are still considerable threats, especially to a Bottom like RSF. On top of that, using RSF makes it especially easy for opposite-spin Attack types to OS your Defense custom, whereas the two left if each of these proposals is applied (RDF/RB) are much more secure in that respect.
I'm not super supportive of this one, but I'd still like to see it happen. That said, I'd be OK with leaving E230RSF up there if you guys want to (which I expect most of you will), and this is probably the least important change I've listed.
There you have it. To get a clearer picture, I'll compile these changes into an actual list:
TBD's Dream Defense Section Wrote:DEFENSE
Duo
- MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 RF
Revizer/Killerken
- MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) (Revizer/Killerken) BD145 RDF
- MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) Killerken BD145 RF
- MSF-H Revizer (Revizer/Killerken) E230 (RDF/RB)
Genbull
- MSF-H Revizer Genbull E230 (RDF/RB)
- MSF-H (Revizer/Genbull) Genbull BD145 (RDF/RF)
This is what the Defense section of the tier list would look like if the above changes were made. I think it looks pretty great! No more MSF-H Killerken Killerken BD145CS sitting under MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F.
I know some of these changes are pretty drastic, haha. Keep in mind that most of these changes are honestly due to the prevalence of Wyvang, which trashes the carp out of everything I proposed we remove, and is neutralized by everything I proposed we add. I've been aching to propose a sort of Defense reformation for a long while now. Something like this would give us a list of Defense customs that are actually effective/consistent against the high-powered monsters that are modern Synchrom Attack types.
Post thoughts, suggestions, test results, and whatever else you want to say (as long as it's on topic, of course)!
Thanks to those of you who actually read the whole thing, haha.
RE: Defense Reformation! - Tri - Jul. 26, 2014
I think posting this here only would've been so much better than the advanced forum, just because there will be more activity in this thread.
Anyways …
Removing CS from all defense customs, no. It can get to the point of aggression near RF if launched correctly and/or worn slightly. It honestly works very well with BD145 and E230 since it will not as easily bounce over the ridge like RB and even RSF because the rubber portion is low hanging and flat so when it hits the ridge it will not roll over. RB and RSF works better in combinations using lower tracks just because they won't roll over the short ridge as easily. So yeah, CS should keep its spot.
Removing Duo completely, no. Duo is far to versatile especailly against Wyvang. The circular shape is just perfect against attackers besides Flash. Although it is fairly light weight, you can't deny it not being able to stand up against heavy synchrome attackers.
Removing RB/RSF from BD145 defense, yes to RB, no to RSF. I would want to see RB gone just because on a high height like that it rolls over the ridge far to easy because of the round shape. On low tracks it is fine though. RSF can actually still be used effectively on RSF since it is not as rounded on the bottom. I don't like it on any tracks higher than BD145 though.
Adding RF to varius defense customs, no, that is basically more anti-attack, no? I mean, what else can they stand up against besides attack? Even some defense types can deal with stamina via destabilization or KO, but I mean RF won't really provide anything there except for grip.
Removing RSF from E230, as I already stated I am for this since on high heights like this, it easily rolls over the ridge even with not-so-hard hits.
RE: Defense Reformation! - 6 God - Jul. 26, 2014
Removing CS: I'd like CS to stay on certain E239 customs, but I think it should be removed from BD145 Defense. With E230 it has a decent chance to outlast some Stamina combos.
Removing Duo: I've never used a Duo Defense custom before, but I can give my input based on my experience with Duo. Duo E230__ should stay. It has a good chance of OS'ing some Stamina combos, as well as avoiding those scraping issues you mentioned.
Removing RSF/RB: I like RSF for Defense, it's just a combination of all the others, having Decent Stamina and Decent Defense. I'd like it to stay as apposed to CS. It's kind of a jack-of-all-trades master of none, kind of thing. As Tri mentioned, because of RB's shape, it can be sent over the tornado ridge fairly easily.
Adding RF: Ehhh, it's more of a Balance custom.
Removing RSF from E230: RSF didn't really have much Defense anyways, and E230's less weight compared to BD145 just doesn't do it any favors. I like E230CS just because CS has more Stamina.
Duo ___ BD145RF: Nonononono, no, that combo is atrocious. It has low-weight, no smash, no "push", it has no qualities of a good Anti-Attacker. It may do well against other Defense types, but can't even do what it's good at.
RE: Defense Reformation! - Wombat - Jul. 26, 2014
Might as well post here too.
(Jul. 26, 2014 8:04 PM)Wombat Wrote: Well here's my response to all of these.
1. No. CS is one of the best defensive Tips in the game, especially the passive-aggressive ones. Its shape allows it to catch the Tornado Ridge easily, and then it becomes aggressive, circles back around, and hits the Attack type while it's still recovering from the first hit. Here's a picture if you can't tell what I'm saying with my words:
In my experience, this is extremely useful for taking out Attack types, as the counterattack will kill their momentum. Maybe your CS doesn't do this, but mine does and I personally find it annoying when I test Attack types. So I think CS should stay.excuse the bad editing (Click to View)
2. I agree that Duo is a little too light to compete with all the 60-70 gram Synchrom Attackers. I think it should go, no matter how "well" it takes hits from Wyvang.
3. I have to personally disagree with RSF, since if you launch it aggressively, it can basically act as a slower RF with more Stamina. RB skips the Tornado Ridge way too easily, because it's a ball. I've tried it a few times and never liked it. I supposed you could launch it aggressively but in my experience RSF does this so much better. So I say keep RSF and kick RB.
4. Is RF Defense not Anti-Attack, and therefore Balance? Unless you can differentiate between the RF Defense and Anti-Attack I think Defense should stay as stationary Defense and RF Defense should stay Balance (Anti-Attack).
5. I've honestly never used E230 Defense. I don't know why; I'm just not a huge fan of it, so I can't really give constructive input here. E230RSF does sound like it would have balance issues though.
Have you considered adding Zirago for Defense? I know it's generally used as a sub for Revizer or Killerken, but how does it do on the generic Defense setup?
RE: Defense Reformation! - Leone19 - Jul. 26, 2014
Read through this, here's my input:
1. No. Personally, I really like CS for Defense. As others have said, it's shape/design works wonders for Defense customizations, not to mention it has a good amount of Stamina for what it is. It's worked well for me in the past, personally, I'd hate to see it go, when it's still Tier worthy.
2. Completely removing Duo wouldn't do good. Despite its weight, it handles fairly well, especially against Wyvang. I can see it on certain setups being a tad inefficient, but at least on E230, it should stay.
3. Keep RSF, remove RB. RSF is great for Defense in my opinion, like Wombat mentioned, a slower RF with better Stamina. It can either act aggressive or "calm" depending on the launch, which can be pretty handy in situations. On the other hand, RB can be KO'ed fairly easily from what I've seen, but I've never personally used or battled with it, so I can't comment on that.
4. I'm really against adding RF to Defense, honestly. I think "RF-Defense" customs should remain Balance/Anti-Attack. RF Defense is pretty much Balance/Anti-Attack, not sure how the two would be told apart. I hope he doesn't mind me quoting, but Tri pretty much summed up my feelings on the matter:
(Jul. 26, 2014 7:08 PM)Tʀɪ Wrote: I don't know if anyone really ever said defense has to sit still, especially when aggressive bottoms like RSF and RDF are used for defense. I don't think RF belongs in the defense category. It holds up against attack types because of the speed, aggression, and grip, but that is what an anti-attacker does. RF doesn't get near as good results against stamina as other conventional defense bottoms, so that is a big part of why I think it ahould remain in the balance section.
5. When using E230 Defense, I've never used RSF on it, so I can't comment on that personally.
RE: Defense Reformation! - Thunder Dome - Jul. 27, 2014
Wow another long and informative thread, good job writing it TBD. Here are my thoughts
1. I personally am up for removing CS on from the list. Definitely on BD145 and possibly on E230. I didn't get around to testing E230 CS defense earlier, but Flash attack was kicking the carp out of MSF-H Revizer Killerken BD145 CS (and my Flash is pretty worn after more than two years).
2. Duo should go. Although it handles Wyvang good not everyone is using Wyvang attack and there are some more wheels that are pretty easy to obtain that have high win rates against Duo
3. RSF should definitely stay. It's tough to KO plus its aggressive movement comes in handy in some match ups. RB probably should go. As Wombat mentioned it skips the tornado ridge sometimes which is bad and it seems a little easier to KO due to its shape IMO.
4. As others have brought up is isn't RF defense basically Anti-Attack/Balance? I think those types of beyblade should remain in the balance category and not come over to defense.
5. I don't have that much experience with E230 RSF combos, but it sounds like balance would be an issue in some matches so if others say it should go I would be fine with that.
On the topic of Duo BD145 RF I actually have tried out that combination after hearing about it in winning combos a while ago. It's pretty interesting although I don't think it has enough testing to be on the tier list.
RE: Defense Reformation! - DrPepsidew - Jul. 27, 2014
#defensemasterrighthere
Speaking from tournament experience, I'm almost sure out of the competitive players, I tend to use defense a LOT more than others. Here are my professional (lololol) opinions:
1. CS is an awesome tip. Most stamina out of the defensive tips period, also, when you sliding shoot it, it stalls.
Pretty much, it's RF until it knocks the attack combo out of pattern, and OS's it. I've done it several times, try it out dudes. I'm for it staying yo.
2. Innovations in attack metas are kinda trashing Duo defense... I'd really hate to see it go... However, for the sake of the tier list, dueces.
3. RSF is combo specific, and RB can be unreliable at times depending on the combo. Your Wyvang^2 BD145 RSF is genius and I loved the combo from the start of me reading the title. I like defense in general, whether it be passive or with a metaphorical "oomph." RB can go, keep RSF on aggressive defense customs.
4. Sure! Anti-Attack is sweet, but if it's BD145 RF, Genbull should never be a bottom chrome wheel. Killerken, Girago, Revizer, or Wyvang are a perfect fit for it.
5. Yep, do it.
My go-to defense customs at the moment are MSF-F/H Girago Genbull/Girago BD145 RDF. With my launch (TBD, vouch for me here please) I can OS a large portion of damn near anything, but this thing is a tank. Hits roll off of the top of Genbull, or if it's G^2, it becomes a rock. That spins really fast. I also have MSF-H Girago Dragooon BD145 CS that I've had for quite awhile, I use it to OS and KO, sliding shoot against attack, bank against high stamina, and regular shoot for a nice, calm OS (with the exception of the kind-of often freak KO's Girago tends to do).
RE: Defense Reformation! - Mitsu - Jul. 27, 2014
Here's mine, yo:
Mɪᴅɴɪɢʜᴛ for removing CS Wrote:I'd remove it to some extent: I myself like the idea of E230 on CS, however, I'd prefer tips consisting of either RB or RDF on BD145RDF customs.
Mɪᴅɴɪɢʜᴛ for removing Duo from defense customs Wrote:Despite it doing a decent job at avoiding KOs from Wyvang, I've rarely seen Duo have any use for Defense, as it is light-weighted, and from my experience, quite easily KO'ed from Flash, _Bahamdia on LRF/R2F (specifically MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F) customs, etc..
Mɪᴅɴɪɢʜᴛ for removing RSF and RB from BD145 customs Wrote:I actually did take somewhat of a liking to RSF on BD145, though to me, it's more of a substitute for RDF. However, I'd still keep it on the list, though. As for RB, I'd remove it. As Wombat said, it skips the tornado ridge way too easily, and a bit too much, as well. Keep RSF, kill RB, yo.
Mɪᴅɴɪɢʜᴛ for adding RF for BD145 Defense Wrote:Possibly...? I regularly only see the BD145RF setups on Killerken/Genbull relating to Anti Attack, which in this case it probably isn't. On the topic of Duo_BD145RF, before I bought my RDF from Dark_Mousy, I played around with that specific setup as a substitute for me not having an RDF at the time, remembering that it wasn't able to do all that good.
Mɪᴅɴɪɢʜᴛ for removing RSF from E230 Defense Wrote:Most definitely, yes. When I played with a MSF-H Reviser Killerken E230RSF at one point, I remember it being wobble central, hah. It had a whole lot of balance issues, for me at least.
I might possibly look into Duo_BD145RF a little more later on, despite it not doing all that great for me. It's really interesting, I must admit.
In addition to that, I'll do some tests with E230RSF in comparison to other tips on E230 like RDF, and possibly RS (?).
RE: Defense Reformation! - Leone19 - Jul. 27, 2014
One more note on the BD145 RF, I found this on BeyWiki- it corresponds to what I said earlier and what I quoted from Tri earlier:
Quote:Defense is the classification of a Beyblade which battles by staying relatively still, unmoved by the opposing Beyblade's attacks. The purposes of defense types are to withstand heavy hits (primarily from attack types) and to not be knocked out of the stadium. Generally, there are two main types of defense type customizations: ones that rely on weight and ones that rely on grip.
With the movement and the setup in general, I personally don't see how it wouldn't be Balance/Anti-Attack.
RE: Defense Reformation! - *Ginga* - Jul. 27, 2014
OK, now that I have time to make a response, here I go.
I am all up for removing CS on BD145 however on E230 I say no. E230 alone is pretty hard to KO with out a really goood launch and some aggressive Wyvangs. Also, E230 has OSes mid-height Stamina and can take care of Attack (though not without a fight). ShinobuXD once quite nearly soloed my tourney in Ohklahoma using MSF Reviser Killerken E230CS. His CS was quite calm, and Attack had some trouble with it did to E230 and mid-height Stamina had a lot of trouble OSing it with the combined Stamina of CS and the destabilization of E230.
I'm fine with removing Duo for normal Defense customs, though Duo BD145RF is something I think we all should look into more. Otherwise I haven't seen Duo Defense in a tournament in ages.
I additionally haven't seen an RB/RSF defense custom on BD145 really, ever, haha. RDF is superior in so many ways that these days RB/RSF aren't even considered if choosing a defense custom in a tourney.
I say yes for adding RF, though I think before this happens we need to draw a fine line between "aggressive Defense" and "Anti-Attack." We don't want people assuming Girago Girago BD145RF and Genbull Genbull BD145RF are one and the same type. However my definition of Anti-Attack is a heavy aggressively designed MW/Synchrome that is set up on BD145RF/R2F so it can KO pretty much anything. However Defense's goal is to OS Attack, or if need be, KO it. Genbull Genbull BD145RF won't have trouble KOig Attack, however against Stamina it might have some trouble, making it more of a Defense type.
Yes, please remove RSF from E230. It wobbles more than Duo 230MB, no joke.
RE: Defense Reformation! - [)ragon - Jul. 27, 2014
Hey guys, sorry I couldn't respond to anything yesterday. I was gona gone at a friend's house, and I'll be gone all day today as well.
But before I go, I'd just like to say I think that all of are kind of misconceiving the concept of "Anti-Attack." Anti-Attack is Balance. It's specifically designed to handle Stamina type Beyblades as well as Attack type Beyblades. Aggressive Defense is not, It's built only to handle Attack types (which it usually does better than Anti-Attack types).
Yes, MSF-H Duo Aquario BD145RF would work horribly as an Anti-Attack custom, but that's because it isn't one.
Right on the money, *Ginga*.
I'll see you guys later (and I really want to talk more about CS, because personally, it doesn't work at all for me on any setup).
RE: Defense Reformation! - Leone19 - Jul. 27, 2014
I don't mean/not trying to sound argumentative, but at the same time, BD145 RF is an Anti-Attack setup, paired with Duo, would be making it Balance/Anti-Attack. Anti-Attack is meant to be an agreessive combination that counters Attack types, from my understanding, not sure when it had to beat Stamina as well, unless I misread something before, haha. Duo may be a bad example, but BD145 RF with those types of wheels suggested seems like Anti-Attack more so than Defense, again, part of this is becuase I'm going by BeyWiki's definition:
Quote:Defense is the classification of a Beyblade which battles by staying relatively still, unmoved by the opposing Beyblade's attacks. The purposes of defense types are to withstand heavy hits (primarily from attack types) and to not be knocked out of the stadium. Generally, there are two main types of defense type customizations: ones that rely on weight and ones that rely on grip.
But this is just me.
RE: Defense Reformation! - *Ginga* - Jul. 27, 2014
Anti-Attack needs a heavy, aggressively designed wheel to be classified as such, otherwise it wouldn't be able to take out Stamina well.
RE: Defense Reformation! - ~Eclipse~ - Jul. 28, 2014
i wouldn't like using RDF for defense. For some reason, my OCD was driving me CRAZY about the EXTREMELY loose tip on my BD145. Do you guys have problems with this too? also, I loooooove BD145RSF setups. I know it's not the best, but it still provides defense.
RE: Defense Reformation! - [)ragon - Jul. 28, 2014
(Jul. 27, 2014 5:06 PM)Leone19 Wrote: I don't mean/not trying to sound argumentative, but at the same time, BD145 RF is an Anti-Attack setup, paired with Duo, would be making it Balance/Anti-Attack. Anti-Attack is meant to be an agreessive combination that counters Attack types, from my understanding, not sure when it had to beat Stamina as well, unless I misread something before, haha. Duo may be a bad example, but BD145 RF with those types of wheels suggested seems like Anti-Attack more so than Defense, again, part of this is becuase I'm going by BeyWiki's definition:
Quote:Defense is the classification of a Beyblade which battles by staying relatively still, unmoved by the opposing Beyblade's attacks. The purposes of defense types are to withstand heavy hits (primarily from attack types) and to not be knocked out of the stadium. Generally, there are two main types of defense type customizations: ones that rely on weight and ones that rely on grip.
But this is just me.
Oh, I get it. So you're saying, because MSF-H Genbull Genbull/Duo BD145RF fits the definition of Anti-Attack, it should be classified as Balance, right?
Think about this: why is Anti-Attack classified as Balance? Remember, a Beyblade is classified by the range of opponents it can win consistently against. Anti-Attack is classified as Balance, because it's built to be an aggressive combination, capable of KOing a wide range of customs, while still being able to counter Attack types.
That said, MSF-H Duo BD145RF cannot counter most of today's top-tier Stamina combinations. That means that it's either not Anti-Attack, or Anti-Attack isn't Balance, because MSF-H Duo BD145RF should technically be classified as Defense.
This is why I actually don't like the term "Anti-Attack." It implies that the combination is a super niche counter to an Attack combination, even more so than a normal Defense type (which is the polar opposite of the truth - it's the other way around), while totally leaving out any implication that the custom needs to be able to consistently KO Stamina combinations. IMO we should really write up an actual definition of "Anti-Attack," and maybe even change the name, because Anti-Attack and aggressive Defense are confused very very frequently, and they really shouldn't be classified together.
Here's a quote from the user who actually coined the term Anti-Attack:
th!nk Wrote:Seeing as I coined the term with a very clear idea of what it should pertain to, I think I'm able to explain it quite accurately:
It pertains to fast moving defenders that also have an element of attack which allows them to handle stamina combinations. RF being the prime choice for optimum grip and aggressive movement. Generally they're quite heavy to make sure they come off best against other attackers. Like attack types they usually win by KO - except unlike attack types, they tend to do this against other attack types as well as stamina types, rather than trying to do it against defense types.
The latter part is the key difference from RF Defense - RF defenders lack the ability to handle stamina with decent reliability. The reason for this difference is basically because as a result of this things like Duo BD145RF and Diablo BD145RF have very different applications, Duo being solely defensive (and better at that) to the exclusion of notable attack ability and very poor stamina, whilst Diablo sacrifices some of that defense to be less overspecialized, making it a balance type.
Oh yah, and about that definition from Beywiki, I believe it needs to be changed. It was written in the context of the Plastics/HMS era, before the concept of using an Attack Bottom for a Defense custom existed.
BTW, guys, just so you know, Duo RF Defense customs were top-tier for a while. This isn't a new idea, just a renewal of an old one.
RE: Defense Reformation! - Leone19 - Jul. 28, 2014
Well, a solid definition of Anti-Attack was never actually created-
http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-TBT-In-Progress-What-ARE-Anti-Attackers
It seems Th!nk believed it should be able to defeat Stamina, but that wasn't ever "solidly" established as a "solid" definition. Th!nk's definition goes along with your argument, but I never saw his definition made "official", unless I missed that.
It's simply my personal opinion (not exactly alone, here) that it's more of a Balance/Anti-Attack combination.
Just my opinion, I don't want to start a huge debate on this one thing, though, haha.
RE: Defense Reformation! - [)ragon - Jul. 28, 2014
(Jul. 28, 2014 2:18 PM)Leone19 Wrote: It seems Th!nk believed it should be able to defeat Stamina, but that wasn't ever "solidly" established as a "solid" definition.
But he's the one who actually invented the term, so I believe it was.
One other thing about Beywiki's definition of Defense - you can clearly see that the article is referring to Plastics/HMS specifically, because it refers to weight-based Defense, which doesn't exist in MFB (or at least isn't applicable).
RE: Defense Reformation! - Wombat - Jul. 28, 2014
(Jul. 28, 2014 2:09 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: This is why I actually don't like the term "Anti-Attack." It implies that the combination is a super niche counter to an Attack combination, even more so than a normal Defense type (which is the polar opposite of the truth - it's the other way around), while totally leaving out any implication that the custom needs to be able to consistently KO Stamina combinations. IMO we should really write up an actual definition of "Anti-Attack," and maybe even change the name, because Anti-Attack and aggressive Defense are confused very very frequently, and they really shouldn't be classified together.
While I understand the distinction between the two now, from your definition it seems Duo BD145 should be considered Anti-Attack because it is 'a super niche counter to an Attack custom' while not being able to KO Stamina types or OS Defense types. IMO Diablo BD145/R145 RF seems like it directly outclasses Duo because it has the same stopping power against Attack and can also KO Stamina, and a few Defense customs.
EDIT: Are you sure it was th!nk that invented the term? I'm pretty sure it was used long before he made that thread with the definition, dating back to Basalt R145 RF or maybe earlier. Not that it really matters, it's like arguing over who 'invented' a combo.
RE: Defense Reformation! - Angry Face - Jul. 28, 2014
Th!nk actually did coin the term "Anti-Attack" after a discussion on the definition of "Anti-Meta" some time ago.
I've personally always thought that if a combo could handle both Attack and Stamina, then it should just be called a Defense-Attack hybrid, like how Duo TH170CS was called a Stamina-Defense hybrid, or how Flash W145MF is a Stamina-Attack hybrid. Isn't that a lot simpler and clearer?
BTW, I'd like to reply to this topic in full sometime, but I wanna test everything out for myself again after so long. I'd like to be able to back my opinion with recent experience.
RE: Defense Reformation! - [)ragon - Jul. 28, 2014
(Jul. 28, 2014 3:31 PM)Wombat Wrote:(Jul. 28, 2014 2:09 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: This is why I actually don't like the term "Anti-Attack." It implies that the combination is a super niche counter to an Attack combination, even more so than a normal Defense type (which is the polar opposite of the truth - it's the other way around), while totally leaving out any implication that the custom needs to be able to consistently KO Stamina combinations. IMO we should really write up an actual definition of "Anti-Attack," and maybe even change the name, because Anti-Attack and aggressive Defense are confused very very frequently, and they really shouldn't be classified together.
While I understand the distinction between the two now, from your definition it seems Duo BD145 should be considered Anti-Attack because it is 'a super niche counter to an Attack custom' while not being able to KO Stamina types or OS Defense types.
Exactly. That's why I think the term is misleading. Duo BD145RF isn't Anti-Attack, but the actual term "Anti-Attack" sounds like a term for niche combinations built to obliterate Attack combinations, even though it really isn't.
I was talking about the actual wording of the term, not the definition.
On the subject of CS vs. RSF vs. RB, I think from testing it's been generally agreed upon that RB>RSF>CS for Defense (and my informal testing confirms that for me), so I'm interested that you guys want CS to stay. Can anyone (besides Angry Face) provide some testing between the three (and possibly RDF)?
RE: Defense Reformation! - DrPepsidew - Jul. 28, 2014
I did some with CS and RDF on my thread, it was on par with RDF. IF you'd go and check it out, that'd be great.
RE: Defense Reformation! - Kai-V - Jul. 28, 2014
(Jul. 27, 2014 5:08 PM)*Ginga* Wrote: Anti-Attack needs a heavy, aggressively designed wheel to be classified as such, otherwise it wouldn't be able to take out Stamina well.
Eh, Basalt is certainly not aggressively-designed ...
RE: Defense Reformation! - *Ginga* - Jul. 28, 2014
I disagree. By adding the Spiral Staricase of Death on Basalt, the sudden drop in weight on that one side inadvertently made it aggressive but not visible immediately.
That might not have made sense haha.
RE: Defense Reformation! - DRAGON KING - Jul. 28, 2014
(Jul. 28, 2014 9:06 PM)*Ginga* Wrote: I disagree. By adding the Spiral Staricase of Death on Basalt, the sudden drop in weight on that one side inadvertently made it aggressive but not visible immediately.
That might not have made sense haha.
That makes it move aggressive in some cases, but the actual design (EDIT: I mean the surface) has minimal smash due to its circular shape.
I think it's weight made it so good for anti attack, it's so tank-ish it could just push its opponents out with its weight and speed.
RE: Defense Reformation! - [)ragon - Jul. 28, 2014
Basalt actually had some smash to it back in the day. If you go back and test some old Stamina combinations vs. Basalt BD145RF, you'd be surprised.
DrPepsidew: That's... interesting.
I have never ever heard of CS being even close to almost on-par with Rubber Ball, let alone RDF.
Beywiki Wrote:While the defense that the rubber coating of CS provides is good, it is unquestionably inferior to that of RS and RSF.
Beywiki Wrote:The release of RDF essentially made RS irrelevant, since it is just as effective, if not more
All testing indicates that CS is inferior to other options for Defense (except for yours apparently - not to slam your results or anything like that, but I'm kind of surprised that, after the last 3 years of testing, there are still opinions like this being thrown around. It makes you wonder, y'know?). The removal of CS has been brought up before, and every person I've ever talked to until now has confirmed that CS is inferior to other Defense Bottoms.
I'll get some CS, RSF, RB, and RDF testing posted soon. I'm pretty sure the old RDF>RB>RSF>CS model is reliable, but we'll see.
Could you do some comparison testing with RB/RSF as well?
EDIT:
MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145RDF vs. MF-H Flash Orion H145R2F
Worn RDF. Prime R2F. Revizer launched first on all launches.
Revizer: wins, 11/20 (10 OS, 1 KO)
Flash: wins, 9/20 (All KO)
MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145RDF win rate: 55%
Wall saves: 9
MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145CS vs. MF-H Flash Orion H145R2F
Slightly used CS. Prime R2F. Revizer launched first on all launches.
Revizer: wins, 8/20 (7 OS, 1 KO)
Flash: wins, 12/20 (All KO)
MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145CS win rate: 40%
Wall saves: 30
Hmmm...
I decided to do more rounds after I had warmed up with Flash:
MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145RDF vs. MF-H Flash Orion H145R2F
Worn RDF. Prime R2F. Revizer launched first on all launches.
Revizer: wins, 13/20 (10 OS, 3 KO)
Flash: wins, 7/20 (All KO)
MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145RDF win rate: 65%
Wall saves: 12
MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145CS vs. MF-H Flash Orion H145R2F
Slightly worn CS. Prime R2F. Revizer launched first on all launches.
Revizer: wins, 5/20 (3 OS, 2 KO)
Flash: wins, 15/20 (All KO)
MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145CS win rate: 25%
Wall saves: 17
Woah! OK, that was legitimately weird, even for RDF vs. CS. Um, I really don't know what to say about these ones...
RDF average win rate: 60%
RDF average wall saves: 13
CS average win rate: 32.5%
CS average wall saves: 23.5
Anywho, either way, CS was flying all over the place, turning sideways, flying over walls multiple times; just flimsy-looking. RDF was getting battered around as well, but not nearly as severely. You could visibly see that RDF was holding its ground much better.
Oh yah, and BTW, I was using a very worn RDF, and my best CS, so the whole thing was (deliberately) weighted in CS' favor from the beginning.
Hey Dr. Soda Pop, I have something I want you to try. Re-do your comparison, but use MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F. I found during informal testing that RDF is vastly, vastly superior to CS against mid-height Wyvang Attack specifically (it was still working better against Flash, but against Wyvang the difference was extremely obvious). Against Wyvang SA165, I also found that the difference was much less obvious (I assume it's because SA165 is hitting a a more downward angle, thus increasing the Defense type's probability of staying completely grounded and utilizing CS' coating to its fullest).