Competitive ways to counter Dragooon.

Poll: Is Dragoon broken ?

Yes.
19.05%
16
No.
30.95%
26
Depends.
34.52%
29
Not sure.
15.48%
13
Total: 100% 84 vote(s)
(Nov. 09, 2012  1:01 AM)*Billy* Wrote: I thought we already tried that? Gravity is just too light and Vari doesn't work for it since it sucks at Spin Stealing, and any right spin wheel with a EWD which can win but not be a safe viable option, and then there goes the issue if we use EWD to counter Dragooon, Dragooon will start it up too of course it can be swayed then but still.


Possible Counters So Far:
Attack: Gargoyle Dragooon SA165GCF ( I know I forgot the face)
Etc... (Other Variants)
Defense: (Shouldn't this lose anyways? Stamina>Defense>)
Stamina: Duo W145EWD etc (Other Variants)
Why Gargole on Dragoon, exactly?
It's Kei's Combo, and it has good synergy with Dragooon on think or somewhere among those lines, either good synergy or it helps dragooon Smash Points.
It has good synergy.
It matches Dragooon's curves almost perfectly. Someone still needs to try Duo SA165BWD against this.
Well, Killerken is known to counter many Dragooon combo's... so I'm suggesting MSF-H/MSF Killerken Killerken SA165 CF/XF. I have not tested this but if someone/sombody could, that would be great...!
(Nov. 09, 2012  5:13 AM)Ultimo Wrote: Well, Killerken is known to counter many Dragooon combo's... so I'm suggesting MSF-H/MSF Killerken Killerken SA165 CF/XF. I have not tested this but if someone/sombody could, that would be great...!
What about GCF? It's basically XF with extra weight.

@everyone that told me about Gargole working with Dragoon: Ah, alright. Wasn't aware of that.
(Nov. 09, 2012  5:13 AM)Ultimo Wrote: Well, Killerken is known to counter many Dragooon combo's... so I'm suggesting MSF-H/MSF Killerken Killerken SA165 CF/XF. I have not tested this but if someone/sombody could, that would be great...!

Actually, the only problem w/ right spin attack is it won't work. It could not be able to sway the stadium.

I don't know if this has been said, but you might want to change your spelling (At-least in the title) from 'Dragoon' To 'Dragooon'... Since the title led me to believe it was something to do with plastics :L
Actually, a bey that has higher weight than the opposing bey can sway the staidum... even if the opposing bey spins in the opposite direction.

(Nov. 09, 2012  5:13 AM)Ultimo Wrote: Well, Killerken is known to counter many Dragooon combo's... so I'm suggesting MSF-H/MSF Killerken Killerken SA165 CF/XF. I have not tested this but if someone/sombody could, that would be great...!

One can also use E230 as well as GCF as a bottom/tip to increase the weight of the attack combo.

Edit: Sorry for the double post.
I don't exactly own a Zero-G stadium or many competitive beys, which is why I don't post here often, but I don't think it matters if only the stadium is swaying. No matter how heavy the bey that is swaying the stadium is, the problem is getting the bey to sway with it. I'm quite positive that's the issue with using sway attack against Dragooon (Not DragOOn, that's a very different thing OP) in the first place.
(Nov. 10, 2012  12:25 AM)Ultimo Wrote: Actually, a bey that has higher weight than the opposing bey can sway the staidum... even if the opposing bey spins in the opposite direction.
As Raigeko said, right-spin Sway Attack isn't particularly effective against Dragooon combos because if you use Sway Attack, both Beyblades need to spin in the same direction.

We can always look into Killerken Dragooon combos more, though. Using Dragooon combos, in my opinion, seem to be the only way to stop other Dragooon combos.

As I mentioned a few posts ago, we need to fight fire with fire.

Edit: Wait, why did I write Raigeko? My bad, Ga'Hooleone...
(Nov. 08, 2012  8:44 PM)Crab Commando Wrote: LW160: Same effect as W145, but in left spin. Shorter than B: D (?) too.

[??]: I have no darn idea what works well in Zero-G stadia other than that SD/D/WD/W2D/EWD suck in them. I'm thinking BWD, AS, or TB?

LW160 is shorter than Bearing Drive. The only difference in height however, is just the tip of BD.

For the second question I left, I'd say EWD since it looks like it works well on left rotation combos... D should be considered since it has a decent survival rate. The rest, no general opinion.

Now for Swaying, pretty much SD, D, WD are out and just carp. EWD, I don't have one so I have no clue. For BWD, there's really no chance it can resist being swayed. I don't even understand how people in the BWD discussion are believing that it can because it's just a beefed up version of WD which literally scrapes in the Zero G stadium. For TB, it really depends on the overall weight of the combo. Using a MW like Phantom with some random CW, track, and TB would lose to Diablo Kerbecs E230GCF while using something like synchrom (To make it on par in terms of weight with Diablo) would prevent the sway loss and bring out the true potential of TB.

EDIT: BWD might be able to perform the same thing but it has a chance of scraping a little, unless it just bumps the sway attacker out

Now, for that Orojya Genbull carp, what combo did you want to test?
Note: This is just an idea. It is not proven in any way.
Hey guys, I just had an idea for an Zero-G Anti-Attack combo that might be able to counter _______ DragOOOn B: D and/or Gargole DargOOOn SA165CF. It is MF-H Death Bull SA165CF. Death, SA165 and CF are for added stamina and LAD so hope fully this will be able to OS _______ DragOOOn B: D and KO Gargole DargOOOn SA165CF. I will only be able to do the formal tests tomorrow so I hope someone could test this custom before.

BTW I fixed all the errors regarding DragOOOn.
(Nov. 10, 2012  2:52 AM)One Direction Wrote: Note: This is just an idea. It is not proven in any way.
Hey guys, I just had an idea for an Zero-G Anti-Attack combo that might be able to counter _______ DragOOOn B: D and/or Gargole DargOOOn SA165CF. It is MF-H Death Bull SA165CF. Death, SA165 and CF are for added stamina and LAD so hope fully this will be able to OS _______ DragOOOn B: D and KO Gargole DargOOOn SA165CF. I will only be able to do the formal tests tomorrow so I hope someone could test this custom before.

BTW I fixed all the errors regarding DragOOOn.

Nevermind it does fit, just had to mess around with it and hoped that it wouldn't break. SA165CF first, then screw everything else together. Only difference is that that screw isn't tightly screwed unless you plan on breaking it...

EDIT: ANd it's quite obvious Death stands a chance to OS Dragooon. But the second CF starts scraping, it loses(SA165 will scrape as well so there's really no chance of recovering from it) Applies to Normal mode only
One Direction's Request:
(Nov. 10, 2012  2:14 AM)Crab Commando Wrote:
(Nov. 10, 2012  12:25 AM)Ultimo Wrote: Actually, a bey that has higher weight than the opposing bey can sway the staidum... even if the opposing bey spins in the opposite direction.
As Raigeko said, right-spin Sway Attack isn't particularly effective against Dragooon combos because if you use Sway Attack, both Beyblades need to spin in the same direction.

We can always look into Killerken Dragooon combos more, though. Using Dragooon combos, in my opinion, seem to be the only way to stop other Dragooon combos.

As I mentioned a few posts ago, we need to fight fire with fire.

Edit: Wait, why did I write Raigeko? My bad, Ga'Hooleone...

Not necessarily. A bey with the higher weight will be able to sway the stadium even if its opponent is spinning in the opposite direction. Sure it wil be harder, but it can be done. Also Killerken has some nice smash, and can be used for both sway and smash with SA165. Otehr Alternatives include GB145 and CH120/145 CF/GCF/XF.

Ah, while you make a point, it is so much easier to use the same spin direction, and more consistent.
(Nov. 10, 2012  3:17 AM)ShinobuXD Wrote: One Direction's Request:

Ahh...... I see. I really hope that the combo could win. BTW, did you put SA165 in the Shield up mode? Cause I thought it would be better as it provides outward weight distribution.
(Nov. 10, 2012  3:30 AM)Ultimo Wrote: Not necessarily. A bey with the higher weight will be able to sway the stadium even if its opponent is spinning in the opposite direction. Sure it wil be harder, but it can be done.

That isn't quite true at all. No doubt that the sway (Attacker) will be able to sway the opposite rotation bey, and that it can KO or OS it, but there is a fat chance that it will even be able to make it sway out. (In this case, Dragooon).

First of all because of the opposite rotations. In a situation where a sway attacker vs a standard defense/stamina type, the sway attacker is able to use its gimmick and obviously, sway the stadium with no restriction(Sometimes, Defense) or the bey being dragged into the path of the sway attacker and the tip follows the pattern of it as well (Stamina, ex. Pirates Orojya) so that the attacker loses rotations at a slower pace.

For the opposite rotation, you can only see minimum swaying but for the most part, it just doesn't happen. (ex. episode 15/16 shows a little of what I'm trying but of course it doesn't happen in the real world like it does in the anime). The reverse rotating bey is dragged into the path of the sway attacker, but because it spins in the opposite direction, it moves in the opposite direction. It doesn't have to face the sway attacker head on because the sway has more influence in the stadium than the semi-disadvantaged left rotation. So, it pretty much slows down the attacker and sway outs become more improbable as the battle endures.

(Nov. 10, 2012  4:51 AM)One Direction Wrote:
(Nov. 10, 2012  3:17 AM)ShinobuXD Wrote: One Direction's Request:

Ahh...... I see. I really hope that the combo could win. BTW, did you put SA165 in the Shield up mode? Cause I thought it would be better as it provides outward weight distribution.
Yes, SA165 was in normal mode.
(Nov. 10, 2012  4:56 AM)BH145WD Wrote:
(Nov. 10, 2012  3:30 AM)Ultimo Wrote: Not necessarily. A bey with the higher weight will be able to sway the stadium even if its opponent is spinning in the opposite direction. Sure it wil be harder, but it can be done.

That isn't quite true at all. No doubt that the sway (Attacker) will be able to sway the opposite rotation bey, and that it can KO or OS it, but there is a fat chance that it will even be able to make it sway out. (In this case, Dragooon).

First of all because of the opposite rotations. In a situation where a sway attacker vs a standard defense/stamina type, the sway attacker is able to use its gimmick and obviously, sway the stadium with no restriction(Sometimes, Defense) or the bey being dragged into the path of the sway attacker and the tip follows the pattern of it as well (Stamina, ex. Pirates Orojya) so that the attacker loses rotations at a slower pace.

For the opposite rotation, you can only see minimum swaying but for the most part, it just doesn't happen. (ex. episode 15/16 shows a little of what I'm trying but of course it doesn't happen in the real world like it does in the anime). The reverse rotating bey is dragged into the path of the sway attacker, but because it spins in the opposite direction, it moves in the opposite direction. It doesn't have to face the sway attacker head on because the sway has more influence in the stadium than the semi-disadvantaged left rotation. So, it pretty much slows down the attacker and sway outs become more improbable as the battle endures.

This isn't true always. However, another advantage is if the Killerken combo doesn't Sway ____ Dragoon B:D out of the stadium, it can smash it out. Killerken is great for smash attack.
(Nov. 10, 2012  5:13 AM)Ultimo Wrote:
(Nov. 10, 2012  4:56 AM)BH145WD Wrote:
(Nov. 10, 2012  3:30 AM)Ultimo Wrote: Not necessarily. A bey with the higher weight will be able to sway the stadium even if its opponent is spinning in the opposite direction. Sure it wil be harder, but it can be done.

That isn't quite true at all. No doubt that the sway (Attacker) will be able to sway the opposite rotation bey, and that it can KO or OS it, but there is a fat chance that it will even be able to make it sway out. (In this case, Dragooon).

First of all because of the opposite rotations. In a situation where a sway attacker vs a standard defense/stamina type, the sway attacker is able to use its gimmick and obviously, sway the stadium with no restriction(Sometimes, Defense) or the bey being dragged into the path of the sway attacker and the tip follows the pattern of it as well (Stamina, ex. Pirates Orojya) so that the attacker loses rotations at a slower pace.

For the opposite rotation, you can only see minimum swaying but for the most part, it just doesn't happen. (ex. episode 15/16 shows a little of what I'm trying but of course it doesn't happen in the real world like it does in the anime). The reverse rotating bey is dragged into the path of the sway attacker, but because it spins in the opposite direction, it moves in the opposite direction. It doesn't have to face the sway attacker head on because the sway has more influence in the stadium than the semi-disadvantaged left rotation. So, it pretty much slows down the attacker and sway outs become more improbable as the battle endures.

This isn't true always. However, another advantage is if the Killerken combo doesn't Sway ____ Dragoon BGrin out of the stadium, it can smash it out. Killerken is great for smash attack.

Any tests or videos to back up your evidence?
BD is semi worn
Gargole Dragooon always launched first (MLD Left string launcher), then Reviser Killerken (Beylauncher L/R)

Gargole Dragooon BD vs. Reviser Killerken SA165(Normal)GCF
GD wins: 16 wins (16 OS)
RK wins: 4 wins (3 KO, 1 OS)
Ultimo, you must be a fool if you actually think GD Bearing Drive can be swayed out by a Right-spin attacker. Only one of Reviser Killerken's wins actually proved that it had great smash when it kept continuously hammering GD. Other than that, it was only the OS and me launching RK straight at GD for the KOs. To me, Bearing Drive is inarguably the most effective sway-resistant bottom. It was of course dragged due to the weight but it was clearly not enough to make it sway out. In fact, it COULDN'T. It might've looked like RK was going to, but it never did. The only plus side of this was that RK's spin loss rate was decreased and always entered stamina battles or just scraped to its death.


tl;dr The combo is semi carp since I didn't have Killerkenx2, read what I said AGAIN and do not argue because no matter how much you do, Dragooon BD will never be swayed out by a right attacker until I see it with my own eyes.

Also, /double post
Nice Tests.I'll be able to do sometests when Christmas comes.Hopefully tests will still be needed by then...
I am going to talk about many points in this post so I apolgize if I am just rambling on or stating what is there, my hope at least is this will conduct a list of what we need at the end.

I just love how everyone is saying KillerKen has Great Smash a tad worse than Reviser for Defense and it has decent stamina, it seems contradicting to me but I don't have one.


I would like to question BH145WD saying D's "Survival Rate" the only reason D was ever used over something like WD is on 230 which it had less sliding and would be more stable I don't know if you are refering to something very old like the Libra 85D combo which I don't know much about. I am thinking Big for BWD here, but if its only a tip then Dragooon can use it too.

Also, about Swaying Combos, it is true that you can sway a Opponent in a opposite Spin Direction but to put it on a exgerated scale you would have to be MSF-H Dragooon Dragooon SA165CF vs Torch Gemios 125WD to sway it.

I would like to state why Dragooon is so powerful and what we need to counter or why we can't counter it, please add on more to anything I might have missed.

Dragooon is a Left Spin Wheel and has weight, in a opposite of whats happening way, its like weak launching a Diablo vs LLD.

Smash Attack: We can't Smash Dragooon Out because of Weak Launching and Weight.

Sway Attack: to effectively counter dragooon we need a Left Spin Close weight Swaying combo, which basically means Use Dragooon to beat Dragooon or wait for a OmniDirectional Zero-G

Stamina: Dragooon can be OS but not on a fundamental scale, we do not want to find simple counters to a combo, like for example, lets say this which isn't true was that, but in the old meta, Burn Beat Earth, but Burn loses to Thermal which loses to earth, Thermal was only used for Burn and was not practical to use. When it comes to spin stealers, its the tip that I find decideds it, you could use EWD to beat BGrin but then it is chance when fighting the same set up except Dragooon.

Possible Counters: Left Spin Sway, Left Spin Smash, And heres a former concept which theroetically would work but this is Zero-G which can mess it up. Tornado Stallers
A Staller I guess it would be called in Zero-G would have to not make contact and OS Dragooon how this is possible in a Zero-G Stadium I have no clue, but theoretically A Staller Would work.