Poll: Is Dragoon broken ?

Yes.
19.05%
16
No.
30.95%
26
Depends.
34.52%
29
Not sure.
15.48%
13
Total: 100% 84 vote(s)

Competitive ways to counter Dragooon.

(Nov. 10, 2012  7:53 AM)*Billy* Wrote: I just love how everyone is saying KillerKen has Great Smash a tad worse than Reviser for Defense and it has decent stamina, it seems contradicting to me but I don't have one.
That's why I did the test to prove Ultimo wrong. Not sure if you were referring to me or not.


I would like to question BH145WD saying D's "Survival Rate" the only reason D was ever used over something like WD is on 230 which it had less sliding and would be more stable I don't know if you are refering to something very old like the Libra 85D combo which I don't know much about. I am thinking Big for BWD here, but if its only a tip then Dragooon can use it too.
D is no doubt smoother than the others, WD and BWD (Although it's outclassed). When I refer to survival rate, it's pretty much the wobbling. WD and BWD spin mainly on the "sharp" tip so when the bey loses balance(In a stamina test) it can only whistand scraping for a short amount of time before it sleeps out. D does too, but it can hold on longer than WD/BWD due to the smooth surface of the tip.


Also, about Swaying Combos, it is true that you can sway a Opponent in a opposite Spin Direction but to put it on a exgerated scale you would have to be MSF-H Dragooon Dragooon SA165CF vs Torch Gemios 125WD to sway it.
125 is a track height that scrapes. If you think it can still sway out without Torch scraping, then I have nothing else to discuss about it.

(Nov. 10, 2012  2:49 AM)BH145WD Wrote: Now, for that Orojya Genbull carp, what combo did you want to test?
Genbull/Orojya Dragooon LW160EWD/TB?
is this tread just for the attack combo for dragooon or the spin stealing too?(like Revizer Dragooon SA165EWD) cus i know to counter spin stealing dragooon
If in theory, a Tornado Staller would work... Then, possible a very inner weight centered Sychrom with a MF? As well as possible TH170 and MF/XF/RF or whatever decent flat tip. (Kinda like Basalt TH170 WF)
Ah, but what would the Synchrome be?

And, while this might work, I can't see why it would, because there is no tornado ridg, or anything stopping Self KO.
(Nov. 10, 2012  5:18 AM)BH145WD Wrote:
(Nov. 10, 2012  5:13 AM)Ultimo Wrote:
(Nov. 10, 2012  4:56 AM)BH145WD Wrote: That isn't quite true at all. No doubt that the sway (Attacker) will be able to sway the opposite rotation bey, and that it can KO or OS it, but there is a fat chance that it will even be able to make it sway out. (In this case, Dragooon).

First of all because of the opposite rotations. In a situation where a sway attacker vs a standard defense/stamina type, the sway attacker is able to use its gimmick and obviously, sway the stadium with no restriction(Sometimes, Defense) or the bey being dragged into the path of the sway attacker and the tip follows the pattern of it as well (Stamina, ex. Pirates Orojya) so that the attacker loses rotations at a slower pace.

For the opposite rotation, you can only see minimum swaying but for the most part, it just doesn't happen. (ex. episode 15/16 shows a little of what I'm trying but of course it doesn't happen in the real world like it does in the anime). The reverse rotating bey is dragged into the path of the sway attacker, but because it spins in the opposite direction, it moves in the opposite direction. It doesn't have to face the sway attacker head on because the sway has more influence in the stadium than the semi-disadvantaged left rotation. So, it pretty much slows down the attacker and sway outs become more improbable as the battle endures.

This isn't true always. However, another advantage is if the Killerken combo doesn't Sway ____ Dragoon BGrin out of the stadium, it can smash it out. Killerken is great for smash attack.

Any tests or videos to back up your evidence?
BD is semi worn
Gargole Dragooon always launched first (MLD Left string launcher), then Reviser Killerken (Beylauncher L/R)

Gargole Dragooon BD vs. Reviser Killerken SA165(Normal)GCF
GD wins: 16 wins (16 OS)
RK wins: 4 wins (3 KO, 1 OS)
Ultimo, you must be a fool if you actually think GD Bearing Drive can be swayed out by a Right-spin attacker. Only one of Reviser Killerken's wins actually proved that it had great smash when it kept continuously hammering GD. Other than that, it was only the OS and me launching RK straight at GD for the KOs. To me, Bearing Drive is inarguably the most effective sway-resistant bottom. It was of course dragged due to the weight but it was clearly not enough to make it sway out. In fact, it COULDN'T. It might've looked like RK was going to, but it never did. The only plus side of this was that RK's spin loss rate was decreased and always entered stamina battles or just scraped to its death.


tl;dr The combo is semi carp since I didn't have Killerkenx2, read what I said AGAIN and do not argue because no matter how much you do, Dragooon BD will never be swayed out by a right attacker until I see it with my own eyes.

Also, /double post

Why don't you try to attack head on...? You know the combo can utilize smash attack...

MSF-F/MSF-L Killerken Killerken SA165/160/TH170 RF/MF/R2F

@Ginga, a launching technique would need to be developed, OR just insane speed to bounce off the walls... I've never seen a 0G stadia in real life XD just basing this on hypothesis.

Just look for wheels that 1. have a nice weight distribution, mainly to the middle I suppose. Well, maybe Reviser Reviser? I really don't know how the wheels perform that much XD
Ah, that is funny, LOL.

Anyways, I don't think Revizer would work,its weight is pretty evenly distributed.

I'll look at the images of all the wheels, and get back to you.
Well, it's both funny and stupid really. This is just brain vomit, could be nonsense. XD

Hopefully this will mean some of the lesser used wheels will get some spotlight for weight distribution. Going for RPM so bounces will be probably more irregular.
From the wheels I have, there is really no way to tell how it is distributed.

I believe there was a Japanese blogger who did the distributing thing, but I can not find him ...
(Nov. 10, 2012  3:34 PM)Ultimo Wrote: Why don'y you try to attack head on...? You know the combo can utilize smash attack...

MSF-F/MSF-L Killerken Killerken SA165/160/TH170 RF/MF/R2F
(Nov. 10, 2012  5:18 AM)BH145WD Wrote: Only one of Reviser Killerken's wins actually proved that it had great smash when it kept continuously hammering GD.

Did he not just tell you how he could only get like one good KO with RK? And if GCF sucked for it, why would you even bother with MF? (even worse weight and grip). He also said he DIDN'T have a second Killerken, no?

Also, this:
(Nov. 07, 2012  12:04 PM)One Direction Wrote: >Reviser Dragooon B: D vs Ifraid Ifraid 230CF
Reviser:19 wins (4 KO , 1 ZA , 15 KO)
Ifraid : 1 win (KO)
Reviser win :95 %

>BTW Variares doesn't work so well, even in left spin.
1. VariAres doesn't work well EVEN IN LEFT SPIN implies it probably sucked more in right-spin. Also, I have never seen Killerken ^2 tests for smash.
2. Right-Spin Force Smah seems to kinda suck as well.

Pick a username, any username (Click to View)
I am seriously not going to believe any of your "Killerken rules with smash" carp unless I get some sort of video proof. But you have said you do not own Killerken.
/rant

If we are going to keep trying to use smash attackers a la Synchrom, let's use something that has been proven to actually work, like Phoenic ^2, Gryph ^2, or Begirados ^2.

Better yet, I have been having fun with Phoenic Begirados ___RF, and it seems to work alright against combos like MSF-Revizer Saramanda E230CS (in a BB-10, anyway).
Similar to the MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170 WF combo, why doesn't one try

MF-H/MF-L/MF-M/MF Duo Cygnus TH170 WSF
About the Staller discussion it would work if it could continue to spin without hitting Dragooon as a Staller Does I was thinking about Phantom But I don't know how it could Cycle in a Zero-G Stadium without hitting and OS Dragooon, if you start having Contact with Dragooon it is all over.

@BHD145WD I was just thinking of a light track, and I was saying that could possibly sway it would have to be among that serverity, I wasn't against you or anything, and about Killlerken I don't know anything about it but it seems extremely contradicting.
And about the D tip I dind't mean to say I question you butI meant I am asking a question XD I wanted your reasoning on that, But D wouldn't live through sway, and BWD from my experience (I did have one) never fell hard like a W2D but got back up immediatly, it has a Odd wobbling pattern which is what I meant by sliding couldn't think of the word.
Now now, let's not accuse people of being Mu.
(Nov. 10, 2012  2:57 PM)Crab Commando Wrote:
(Nov. 10, 2012  2:49 AM)BH145WD Wrote: Now, for that Orojya Genbull carp, what combo did you want to test?
Genbull/Orojya Dragooon LW160EWD/TB?

Damn it. bb shiny dragooon Unhappy

GD launched first and alternated with MLD Left-String Launcher
Genbull Dragooon LW160TB vs Reviser Dragooon BD
GD wins: 16 wins (15 OS, 1 KO)
RD wins: 4 wins (4 OS)
Iunno, could be an old vs new problem since I put all the new and shiny parts on Genbull Dragooon. (Except LW160)


Reviser Killerken SA165(Normal)RF vs Gargole Dragooon BD

RK wins: 2 wins (2 KO)
GD wins: 18 wins (13 OS, 3 SO, 2 KO)
Ultimo, your combo failed miserably. First you tried to say it could sway Dragooon out and it failed. You never commented on it and you went on to argue that it had great smash. It only won twice. And what's ironic, it swayed itself out.

If you want to state good combos, go test it for yourself first. I don't see many tests of these combos by you and you can say that they're good?
I apologize. I'm try to state out combo's that I believe can beat _____ Dragooon B:D... I am going to continue to state out random combos until we find out Dragooon murderer/killer.


It should be clearly stated though: No Combo can consistently OS/KO _____ Dragooon B:D without having Dragooon in/on it.

Edit: Except for completely irrational combos such as Death Gasher CH120 WD.


(Nov. 10, 2012  5:17 PM)Ultimo Wrote: I apologize. I'm try to state out combo's that I believe can beat _____ Dragooon BGrin... I am going to continue to state out random combos until we find out Dragooon murderer/killer.


It should be clearly stated though: No Combo can consistently OS/KO _____ Dragooon BGrin without having Dragooon in/on it.

Edit:

You should really test the combos yourself instead of stating "I believe".
Well thats true. I do beleive that there should be a thread for "Theoryblade." One can then state random improbable combo's until there's one that truly stands out.
The easiest way is to test it yourself rather than just throwing some random combos that are not competitive.
BH145WD Wrote: GD launched first and alternated with MLD Left-String Launcher
Genbull Dragooon LW160TB vs Reviser Dragooon BD
GD wins: 16 wins (15 OS, 1 KO)
RD wins: 4 wins (4 OS)

Iunno, could be an old vs new problem since I put all the new and shiny parts on Genbull Dragooon. (Except LW160)

RK KO
GD SO
GD OS
Thank you so much for the test, BH145WD! Grin
If possible, could you do a test in which you swap the Dragooon Chromes (old/new) to see if it isn't a wear factor that made it do well with the tests?

Again, though, thank you. The combo seems to work decently.

@Ultimo: Death Gasher CH120WD: Completely irrational? What do you mean, it's an Anti-Spin-Steal combo.
Swapped Chrome Wheel Test
Genbull Dragooon (Worn) LW160TB vs Reviser Dragooon (New) BD
GD wins: 16 wins (16 OS)
RD wins: 4 wins (4 OS)

lolwut... same result except for no KOs. Kinda made my new dragooon scratch for nothing Unhappy
(Nov. 10, 2012  8:07 PM)BH145WD Wrote: Swapped Chrome Wheel Test
Genbull Dragooon (Worn) LW160TB vs Reviser Dragooon (New) BD

lolwut... same result except for no KOs. Kinda made my new dragooon scratch for nothing Unhappy
Aw, sorry dude! Unhappy

Out of curiosity, how close were GD's outspins? Did it just barely outspin or have a few more rotations at the end?

(Nov. 11, 2012  12:06 AM)Crab Commando Wrote:
(Nov. 10, 2012  8:07 PM)BH145WD Wrote: Swapped Chrome Wheel Test
Genbull Dragooon (Worn) LW160TB vs Reviser Dragooon (New) BD

lolwut... same result except for no KOs. Kinda made my new dragooon scratch for nothing Unhappy
Aw, sorry dude! Unhappy

Out of curiosity, how close were GD's outspins? Did it just barely outspin or have a few more rotations at the end?

np.
Whenever GD outspun RD, it usually had a significant amount of rotations left (If I don't take RD out of the stadium, probably like 3-5 seconds) But when RD outspun GD, it was always a few rotations because for GD to sleep out TB had to completely wobble and collapse
(Nov. 11, 2012  1:08 AM)BH145WD Wrote:
(Nov. 11, 2012  12:06 AM)Crab Commando Wrote: [quote='BH145WD' pid='1058585' dateline='1352574422']
Aw, sorry dude! Unhappy

Out of curiosity, how close were GD's outspins? Did it just barely outspin or have a few more rotations at the end?

np.
Whenever GD outspun RD, it usually had a significant amount of rotations left (If I don't take RD out of the stadium, probably like 3-5 seconds) But when RD outspun GD, it was always a few rotations because for GD to sleep out TB had to completely wobble and collapse
Ah, cool!

Would you consider this combo to be more consistent than Death Gasher CH120WD?

(Nov. 11, 2012  2:17 AM)Crab Commando Wrote:
(Nov. 11, 2012  1:08 AM)BH145WD Wrote:
(Nov. 11, 2012  12:06 AM)Crab Commando Wrote: [quote='BH145WD' pid='1058585' dateline='1352574422']
Aw, sorry dude! Unhappy

Out of curiosity, how close were GD's outspins? Did it just barely outspin or have a few more rotations at the end?

np.
Whenever GD outspun RD, it usually had a significant amount of rotations left (If I don't take RD out of the stadium, probably like 3-5 seconds) But when RD outspun GD, it was always a few rotations because for GD to sleep out TB had to completely wobble and collapse
Ah, cool!

Would you consider this combo to be more consistent than Death Gasher CH120WD?
It is probably much more consistent. BH145WD, could you test this combo against other combo's to see if this is competitive.

I will add all possible counters to the OP for easier viewing.
EDIT: If possible, could you guys try NOT to use DragOOOn?