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Beyblade Random Thoughts

Feb. 13, 2014  4:34 AM
 
That's because both of those are official names.

I'm not making a big deal, but I'm sure if people really want to learn they won't want to use the incorrect terminology just later to find out it was wrong the whole time. I did the same thing with Revizer which I thought was Reviser for the longest time.
Feb. 13, 2014  4:59 AM
 
It bothers me because it is as if the Hybrid Wheel System was everything, and that there was nothing significant beforehand. No, it is a system that has its own name, its own awesome designs as well as its great parts. It started everything, so I do not know why it would be called after the system that came later ... Perhaps you were not there, but we were, and you should know the history.
Feb. 13, 2014  5:26 AM
 
I do know the history of the order of releases and designs and all of that, but it's it also quite degrading to call them metal system IMO. Since the previous release was heavy metal system, while the Metal System was quite larger than HMS. Since, like you said, Metal System has its own designs and awesomeness XD

I'm in no way denying that the Official name is Metal System, I'm just voicing my choice of name to call it, but i do see where your coming from.
Feb. 13, 2014  6:59 AM
 
(Feb. 13, 2014  3:30 AM)DRAGON KING Wrote: Tis amazing how back in the Pre-HWS and metal fusion times that MF-H Libra GB145/ED145/C145WB defences seemed so OP but nowadays flash, attack synchromes, Diablo, variares, blitz and even hades etc. in attack and even some balance combos can beat it consistently.

MF(-H) Pegasis/LLD CH120RF were around back then and both destroy WB defense, so to me it's more depressing than anything, but I'm not sure how developed the concept of having to practice a sliding shot was at that point (from discussions with a few people it seems like a shockingly recent phenomenon, and a lot of trends support that).

But then Libra wasn't defensively OP anyway, it was OP for Anti-Attack - MF Libra CH120RF is the earliest example of Anti-Attack's power in the high recoil MFB series, and it's still one of the best combinations in Limited even with RSF preventing it from being broken - WB defense being so weak was a big part of its dominance, IMO.

As for the Metal System thing, it's kinda confusing with Heavy Metal System but we should endeavour to use the correct name for things - remember guys, our reputation is based on being the most accurate source of information on beyblade there is, and Kai-V in particular has done an incredible of work to make sure that's the case. I think we should try to respect that and use the proper names, no?
Feb. 13, 2014  7:08 AM
 
(Feb. 13, 2014  6:59 AM)th!nk Wrote:
(Feb. 13, 2014  3:30 AM)DRAGON KING Wrote: Tis amazing how back in the Pre-HWS and metal fusion times that MF-H Libra GB145/ED145/C145WB defences seemed so OP but nowadays flash, attack synchromes, Diablo, variares, blitz and even hades etc. in attack and even some balance combos can beat it consistently.

MF(-H) Pegasis/LLD CH120RF were around back then and both destroy WB defense, so to me it's more depressing than anything.

But then Libra wasn't defensively OP anyway, it was OP for Anti-Attack (MF Libra CH120RF is the earliest example of Anti-Attack's power in the high recoil MFB series).

As for the Metal System thing, it's kinda confusing with Heavy Metal System but we should endeavour to use the correct name for things - remember guys, our reputation is based on being the most accurate source of information on beyblade there is, and Kai-V in particular has done an incredible of work to make sure that's the case. I think we should try to respect that and use the proper names, no?
Yeah, I know, I just meant it as an example. I consider anti-attack defence in a way XD. BTW I meant the WB combo for before LLD attack customs became popular and came and started Wrecking stuff (#LLDCH120RF) (The times when some ppl used Bull and stock storm Peggy's)

When you look up metal system, you'll pull a good bit of HMS stuff so I dislike it and can be misleading to ppl at times. But, yes I do respect it. I just put it here and put Pre-HWS, I didn't mean for it to start a discussion and hopefully not wind up starting an argument.
Feb. 13, 2014  7:29 AM
 
(Feb. 13, 2014  7:08 AM)DRAGON KING Wrote:
(Feb. 13, 2014  6:59 AM)th!nk Wrote:
(Feb. 13, 2014  3:30 AM)DRAGON KING Wrote: Tis amazing how back in the Pre-HWS and metal fusion times that MF-H Libra GB145/ED145/C145WB defences seemed so OP but nowadays flash, attack synchromes, Diablo, variares, blitz and even hades etc. in attack and even some balance combos can beat it consistently.

MF(-H) Pegasis/LLD CH120RF were around back then and both destroy WB defense, so to me it's more depressing than anything.

But then Libra wasn't defensively OP anyway, it was OP for Anti-Attack (MF Libra CH120RF is the earliest example of Anti-Attack's power in the high recoil MFB series).

As for the Metal System thing, it's kinda confusing with Heavy Metal System but we should endeavour to use the correct name for things - remember guys, our reputation is based on being the most accurate source of information on beyblade there is, and Kai-V in particular has done an incredible of work to make sure that's the case. I think we should try to respect that and use the proper names, no?
Yeah, I know, I just meant it as an example. I consider anti-attack defence in a way XD. BTW I meant the WB combo for before LLD attack customs became popular and came and started Wrecking stuff (#LLDCH120RF) (The times when some ppl used Bull and stock storm Peggy's)

When you look up metal system, you'll pull a good bit of HMS stuff so I dislike it and can be misleading to ppl at times. But, yes I do respect it. I just put it here and put Pre-HWS, I didn't mean for it to start a discussion and hopefully not wind up starting an argument.

Thing is LLD and Pegasis still didn't dominate anywhere near as much as they would under the same conditions nowadays - I mean heck you saw the whining early on in Limited that defense was too weak without RS/RDF/RB and the disk tracks (personally I think people just don't know how to have fun but whateverrrrrr).

And Wide Defense is a very important part in plastics and MFB (not to mention in plastics Wide Defense is a Weight Disk - often abbreviated to WD), we still call it the same thing and let context tell the reader which is which, and those are a lot more similar than Metal System/Heavy Metal System. This stuff happens, but it doesn't mean we can just make up a term, and "pre-hws" is just that, a made up, unofficial term. It also helps that people rarely use the full name for HMS in regular conversation while most will write out Metal System in full.

Personally, I think it's a matter that BeyWiki's glossary (or whatever it is called, I forget) can do a whole lot about anyway, if people are aware of it, and assuming it includes the terms - I am planning on updating it to be a whole lot more comprehensive when I get a chance anyway, though (at which point it might be useful to feature it more prominently on the main site or in the intro threads/PM to help newcomers out).

As for the discussion itself, honestly I'm glad we're having it, with the resurgence of Metal System's relevance with the introduction of Limited Format, it's something that needs to be addressed/discussed, and with our userbase being more tight-knit these days, it's a good time to set a solid foundation for the future, too.
Feb. 13, 2014  7:44 AM
 
Yep, by "When LLD started wrecking stuff", I meant when ppl started finding out how to use it to its prime and started using LLD CH120/100RF (Then LLD BD145LRF in late Metal Masters.). Ahahahahahah, I love the Unban disk track comments (Just so it can tear LTAC apart Grin). I do think that unbanning RB was a good move though, but I guess discussing that isn't suited for this thread..

Yes, most ppl use HMS, but still; there are still quite a few adds, listing, websites, photos etc. that pull up when you type Metal system in.

Plz do, it would really help Beginners out in the confusing world of beyblade.

Glad you feel that way, I'm extremely happy to see a couple of them strive in limited (especially libra, oh how I love Libra.).


Woo, haven't had so much interest writing a reply in a few days XD
Feb. 13, 2014  10:50 AM
 
(Feb. 13, 2014  7:44 AM)DRAGON KING Wrote: Yep, by "When LLD started wrecking stuff", I meant when ppl started finding out how to use it to its prime and started using LLD CH120/100RF (Then LLD BD145LRF in late Metal Masters.). Ahahahahahah, I love the Unban disk track comments (Just so it can tear LTAC apart Grin). I do think that unbanning RB was a good move though, but I guess discussing that isn't suited for this thread..

Yes, most ppl use HMS, but still; there are still quite a few adds, listing, websites, photos etc. that pull up when you type Metal system in.

Plz do, it would really help Beginners out in the confusing world of beyblade.

Glad you feel that way, I'm extremely happy to see a couple of them strive in limited (especially libra, oh how I love Libra.).


Woo, haven't had so much interest writing a reply in a few days XD
Eh, it was still underused for the most part (I mean Italy was apparently struggling with MF-H Basalt 230CS for a long time despite MF LLD BD145LRF being more than well publicised as a counter to it.)

RB was unbanned because it wasn't as large a defensive threat as we thought, rather than to buff defense any. Kinda sad RF Defense didn't get much of a look in though, but I guess MF-H Libra ____ RF is reasonably popular anyway. If defense counters attack too easily, attack just doesn't get used, being so confidence based, IMO people are all too used to defense having a large advantage over attack despite attack already suffering hugely from how hard it is to use in a tournament situation. But, Limited seems to be helping that a bit.

Pre-HWS shouldn't help much though because as an unofficial name, most good sources won't use it. Many search engines let you exclude words so you could maybe exclude the term HMS from your results without losing too much of actual relevance.

Working on it, but I've got a lot of things on the go right now (tournament and a lot of related stuff, a blogpost with some neat setups/uses for unpopular or w/e parts, limited format testing requests thread, plasticsdb (been doing a little work on it lately), and various other commitments, and that's just the beyblade stuff), and I'm not good at managing my time, so while I made a start on it today, I am not sure how long it'll take.

I'd actually like to see a lot of the Metal System Wheels re-tested. I've got an aquario coming and some ideas for it, but it'd be nice to get definitive confirmation on the less known/popular ones too.
Feb. 13, 2014  9:31 PM
 
It's no surprise since
A: Italy was inactive before I joined and I don't go back look at old italy tournaments and the Italian forum isn't much help since, of course, it's in Italian XD
B: most of the time I am referring to north America's meta, unless stated otherwise. Since I am more familiar with it.
But I got bored and was doing (Very) informal testing and Spin equalizers/steals seemed to beat basalt OK.

It was also a bit bland to only use CS and RSF for defence To me, but if something like RDF was unbanned; we'ed have issues (MF-H Scythe RDF, MF-H Libra RDF, MF-H Wyvang RDF, MF-H Meteo RDF etc.).
RF defence is considered by most to be riskier unless you are good with attack (Like Coach and Wyatt V2 which enjoy soloing with the wyvang wyvang attack combos XD) and the less agressive bottoms are used, even though RF defence is amazingly good.

Well, I understand. You've been helping alot and I respect that.

Same here, although I think only Pegasus and Libra will make a large come back. The other closest is probably Virgo, although I doubt it would do too good with Scythe being the more popular and better now.
Feb. 14, 2014  3:00 AM
 
I noticed today that the 145 and 130 Tracks I got from Hasbro's Legendary Bladers: Descendants set had reinforcements along the tabs at their tops: (Click to View)


Anybody else with the set finding the same thing?
Feb. 14, 2014  3:11 AM
 
Hm, that is odd. It is not as if those hooks were used or were vulnerable to being hit at all.
Feb. 14, 2014  4:50 AM
 
My brother has broken his multiple times...and yes, it happened during a battle atleast once.
Feb. 14, 2014  5:22 AM
 
Yeah those can break, keep in mind any vertical hit to the wheel if the facebolt is even slightly loose puts force right on those flimsy little bars.

Of course, the easiest way to break them is by launching from an excessive height onto a hard surface, which is what a lot of Hasbro's reinforcements seem to be made for (eg the struts inside WD's).
Feb. 15, 2014  4:00 AM
 
I'm actually really surprised my 85's tabs haven't broken that way yet, since they're like half as thin as all the others. I've had a 100 and DF145 break, which is fortunate since they're both pretty common parts. I don't think I launched either of them from an excessive height, I learned that the hard way after splitting my ES.
Feb. 18, 2014  8:02 AM
 
I've come to notice that the "Pirates" Crystal Wheel's biomechanical texturing is highly reminiscent of H.R. Giger's Xenomorph. I could be stretching the resemblance, but I can't shake it.
Feb. 23, 2014  1:05 AM
 
Back with another weird molding-thing, lol.

I noticed today that the axis of my brown F230 doesn't quite fit over the little, red peg on my red F230's upper casing. I originally thought the peg on my brown F230 was smaller due to extreme wear, but the fact that the brown axis fits over only the brown peg and not my red one made me look closer at the two and realize that they're actually different molds from Hasbro's red F230's: (Click to View)

I don't have pictures of the different axes, as the difference between the two is pretty hard to see, but you could definitely see it if you tried to put the brown axis over a red peg (I couldn't close my red F230's casings over top of the brown F230's axis without the use of its brown peg piece.)


So can anybody with Takara and/or Hasbro's orange F230s see a resemblance of either one of these pegs to theirs, or might the orange F230s have their own mold?


EDIT: Derp, false alarm. Nothing groundbreaking
Feb. 23, 2014  1:10 AM
 
Man, if that was the secret to the mold differences all along, hah.
Feb. 23, 2014  1:15 AM
 
Sorry to disappoint, Takara Orange looks like the red one - I notice some kinda indented ring which I think I can also see on that red one, but not very pronounced at all. My suspicion is that it is due to wear, given the buildup of plastic debris and the general appearance of that brown one (it looks like what I'd expect the area to look with wear, though I'm surprised that the pole lost length as there's nothing I can see there that would cause that), with the wear on the raised section around the pole allowing the centre shaft part to rub against the surface.

Takara Orange F230's spin a lot more freely than I would expect from the design. While it perhaps tells us where some of the wear is occurring, I'm not sure if it's more useful than that, though it'd be interesting if someone mixed and matched parts to see if they could produce something that performs well, though what I suspect is the cause of differences would probably means doing so would likely not yield much of worth.

I'm keen to get my hands on a non-Takara orange one when I can spare the cash and see if I can't make it perform like an orange one with a little polishing etc as an experiment. My suspicion is it's down to something like that, based on the wear/plastic debris we see in the brown ones, which is going to happen due to friction, though I've a couple of other ideas and obviously only owning a Takara Orange one, I might be way off. Would be interesting if someone put the contact areas under decent magnification or whatever.
Various areas of my orange one are rough - parts that don't make contact, so I suspect the parts are polished or whatever to a degree as I doubt molding would do that (though I don't know much about the process and could be wrong), so I think perhaps the orange ones were just polished better in the factory (in which case Takara Tomy are jerks for making only the prize one really good), though there are some other peculiarities on holding mine up to the light I'd like to look at other ones for - I'm not sure if they're transparent but I was reading about dry lubricants like teflon sprays etc that could perhaps have been applied to the orange ones (which would also reduce wear by reducing friction). Finally, it would also be interesting to see if people can tell us the mold numbers of their parts - the three largest parts are each stamped with an A# code, for example all of mine are A2. Might vary between brands and I doubt it actually has anything to do with it but I guess it's worth looking at.
Feb. 23, 2014  1:34 AM
 
I don't see any debris, but I guess if yours looks like the red one, then I must've done something really, really wrong to that poor F230. xD

Now I'm left to wonder what happened to the rest of that brown peg... It is a mystery

Speaking of mixing parts, a combination of the brown and red (red upper casing, red peg, red axis, brown lower casing, red tabbed part) has worked better for me than either the red or brown ones ever did for me solid, and when I talked to TheBlackDragon about mixing parts, he told me he already does it with his orange ones. I think it's definitely something to look into, even if it might only benefit the orange ones.
Feb. 23, 2014  1:38 AM
 
Since each color/mold performs differently, wouldn't mixing parts render it illegal?
Feb. 23, 2014  1:38 AM
 
Id think mixing of F230s would be considered an illegal modification.
Feb. 23, 2014  1:40 AM
 
I strongly suspect that is the dust or whatever that is cleaned out of the poorer-performing ones.

Well if mixing and matching between those two produced something better, then I would assume that it does benefit all of them, and it would not surprise me that to some extent one part of one F230 might be a little smoother than that of another, yet a different part be the other way round. Especially from the peculiarities on my one I mentioned, I do not think their margin of error is that exacting that this would not occur, though personally given how freely the Takara Orange one spins, I still suspect there is more at play here than that would compensate for with other ones.
Feb. 23, 2014  1:43 AM
 
(Feb. 23, 2014  1:40 AM)th!nk Wrote: I strongly suspect that is the dust or whatever that is cleaned out of the poorer-performing ones.

Well if mixing and matching between those two produced something better, then I would assume that it does benefit all of them, and it would not surprise me that to some extent one part of one F230 might be a little smoother than that of another, yet a different part be the other way round. Especially from the peculiarities on my one I mentioned, I do not think their margin of error is that exacting that this would not occur, though personally given how freely the Takara Orange one spins, I still suspect there is more at play here than that would compensate for with other ones.

You know that when I clean my Brown F230, it works like an Orange for 10 battles and then it acts like a brown again, so it probably has to do with dust.
Feb. 23, 2014  1:52 AM
 
I would suggest you all lighten up honestly - Takara didn't differentiate the parts, they're all "F230", and we've already condoned cleaning them out, which requires disassembly. If it helps those who can't get a Takara Orange one improve the performance of those they can get, then it strikes me as a good thing.

A ban on it would also suck IMO because a fairly common breakage of any track is the threading area, and if that happens to a Takara Orange one, it could feasibly be replaced with a cheaper one without affecting the performance - quite a handy option, no? Same goes for a lot of parts, even those where it might affect performance like the rubber on R145 (soft vs hard) or those extra-free-spinning ED145's. There's also CH120 which aside from being very breakage prone tends to vary in tightness of the locking function, and mixing/matching parts could help there too, perhaps - in that case the difference doesn't seem to be due to color, just random variation (presumably the locking nubs being slightly larger/indentations slightly less smooth or whatever) so you could get more of a difference mixing and matching identically colored parts.

If Takara expressly forbids disassembly in MFB (in that case one would expect them to use Triwing screws at the very least, though), then perhaps that is the case, but unless that's an explicit rule, it strikes me as needless restriction without any gain - not even professionalism, tbh.

Lastly, there's the fact that parts can be dyed - risky and IIRC Ingulit tried it with something and it made the part very brittle, but that may just be a temperature thing. Still, it would mean someone could simply take the differently colored parts, dye them, and no one could tell - basically such a ban would only be enforceable because the difference coincides with different color, which seems quite unusual to me.

Oh, there's also the whole thing with the 4D LDrago Cores - there is variation there and we allow them to be swapped, and they're not even necessarily called the same thing (there are other instances of recycling, SW145 and UW145 share a centre part, for example).

Of course I tend to be rather liberal about these kinds of things, especially with my background in plastics, so perhaps I'm way off the mark.

@Aquamarine: Are you basing that on a comparison to an orange one you own? Personally I think that if the friction is enough that wear is occurring at such a noticeable rate, then a brown one could never compare to a Takara Orange one even fresh out of the factory because it must have more friction and therefore would perform worse.
Feb. 23, 2014  1:49 PM
 
(Feb. 23, 2014  1:52 AM)th!nk Wrote: I would suggest you all lighten up honestly - Takara didn't differentiate the parts, they're all "F230", and we've already condoned cleaning them out, which requires disassembly. If it helps those who can't get a Takara Orange one improve the performance of those they can get, then it strikes me as a good thing.

A ban on it would also suck IMO because a fairly common breakage of any track is the threading area, and if that happens to a Takara Orange one, it could feasibly be replaced with a cheaper one without affecting the performance - quite a handy option, no? Same goes for a lot of parts, even those where it might affect performance like the rubber on R145 (soft vs hard) or those extra-free-spinning ED145's. There's also CH120 which aside from being very breakage prone tends to vary in tightness of the locking function, and mixing/matching parts could help there too, perhaps - in that case the difference doesn't seem to be due to color, just random variation (presumably the locking nubs being slightly larger/indentations slightly less smooth or whatever) so you could get more of a difference mixing and matching identically colored parts.

If Takara expressly forbids disassembly in MFB (in that case one would expect them to use Triwing screws at the very least, though), then perhaps that is the case, but unless that's an explicit rule, it strikes me as needless restriction without any gain - not even professionalism, tbh.

Lastly, there's the fact that parts can be dyed - risky and IIRC Ingulit tried it with something and it made the part very brittle, but that may just be a temperature thing. Still, it would mean someone could simply take the differently colored parts, dye them, and no one could tell - basically such a ban would only be enforceable because the difference coincides with different color, which seems quite unusual to me.

Oh, there's also the whole thing with the 4D LDrago Cores - there is variation there and we allow them to be swapped, and they're not even necessarily called the same thing (there are other instances of recycling, SW145 and UW145 share a centre part, for example).

Of course I tend to be rather liberal about these kinds of things, especially with my background in plastics, so perhaps I'm way off the mark.

@Aquamarine: Are you basing that on a comparison to an orange one you own? Personally I think that if the friction is enough that wear is occurring at such a noticeable rate, then a brown one could never compare to a Takara Orange one even fresh out of the factory because it must have more friction and therefore would perform worse.
I am, well at least I used to own an Orange, also, when I hand spun the free spinning part of F230 (Orange) near my ear, it sounded super smooth but when I did the same with an unwashed brown, I could hear the friction.
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