Beyblade Burst Competitive Combos List & Public Discussion [TENTATIVE]
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Why is Armed under defence types? There has been no real testing posted from what I can see apart from the test posted in the Yggdrasil Claw thread.
(Apr. 05, 2016 8:22 PM)Ultra Wrote: Why is Armed under defence types? There has been no real testing posted from what I can see apart from the test posted in the Yggdrasil Claw thread.
Wombat tested different disks and Armed showed that it has the best defense potential out of all other disks.
https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Disks-a...st-Defense
I agree! personaly i dislike armed. too light imo
edit: I see this thread and it logical but it isn't work for all combination. well it won't work with Yggdrasil. But armed is more prone to be koed by a good attacker then burst in general. but At know I didn't see Armed placed in a tournament.
edit: I see this thread and it logical but it isn't work for all combination. well it won't work with Yggdrasil. But armed is more prone to be koed by a good attacker then burst in general. but At know I didn't see Armed placed in a tournament.
(Apr. 05, 2016 8:34 PM)1234beyblade Wrote:(Apr. 05, 2016 8:22 PM)Ultra Wrote: Why is Armed under defence types? There has been no real testing posted from what I can see apart from the test posted in the Yggdrasil Claw thread.
Wombat tested different disks and Armed showed that it has the best defense potential out of all other disks.
https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Disks-a...st-Defense
Okay fine but no one backed up his testing. Test results aren't proven till someone till someone can corroborate them. Just because it is his thread doesn't mean he can put up whatever he wants here since this thread actually matters.
Quote:Test results aren't proven till someone till someone can corroborates them.
THIS.
Guys, if we really want to add something to the list, we'd like to see more than one sets of tests from more than on user or if not this; tournament experience.
I'm really not sure about Claw and I've never really tested it for defense. I like Heavy because of it's great stamina. Something like Wyvern Armed Claw may have better defense than Wyvern Heavy Claw (for example, of course), but when buying something, you want to consider how versatile something is.
I thought more than Wombat had tested it, but personally I absolutely did not see why there was so much hype around Armed in my tests.
(Apr. 05, 2016 9:17 PM)Ultra Wrote:(Apr. 05, 2016 8:34 PM)1234beyblade Wrote:(Apr. 05, 2016 8:22 PM)Ultra Wrote: Why is Armed under defence types? There has been no real testing posted from what I can see apart from the test posted in the Yggdrasil Claw thread.
Wombat tested different disks and Armed showed that it has the best defense potential out of all other disks.
https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Disks-a...st-Defense
Okay fine but no one backed up his testing. Test results aren't proven till someone till someone can corroborates them. Just because it is his thread doesn't mean he can put up whatever he wants here since this thread actually matters.
Wombat didn't even suggest putting up Armed until it appeared in 1234beyblade's version of the list, which was then incorporated into the list as it is now. The majority of the tests linked were actually done after it was added to the list.
On a (somewhat) related note, Attack and Defense really need to be split into separate sections for KO Attack and Defense and Burst Attack and Defense.
Quote:On a (somewhat) related note, Attack and Defense really need to be split into separate sections for KO Attack and Defense and Burst Attack and Defense.
I keep seeing posts like this but don't really understand them, I guess. What good is a defense-type that's awesome at avoiding KOs if it bursts like crazy, or vice-versa? Especially given the low frequency of KOs at this point in the game, I don't understand the purpose of the differentiation.
Yeah I have found that Armed is usually the hardest disk to burst. I think because of how loose it fits. The loose fitting causes energy to be lost in the force transfer of impact. I guess anyway. I haven't done any formal tests to support it, but I thought that it was pretty well accepted that this was the case
(Apr. 05, 2016 9:50 PM)Bey Brad Wrote:Quote:On a (somewhat) related note, Attack and Defense really need to be split into separate sections for KO Attack and Defense and Burst Attack and Defense.
I keep seeing posts like this but don't really understand them, I guess. What good is a defense-type that's awesome at avoiding KOs if it bursts like crazy, or vice-versa? Especially given the low frequency of KOs at this point in the game, I don't understand the purpose of the differentiation.
If possible, you'll naturally choose a Defense or Attack type that's good for both Bursting and KOing (or resisting both), but it's more likely that there will be something of a division between the two strategies, similar to how Sway Attack differs from regular Attack in Zero-G.
I can't necessarily conclusively say anything specific about it (mostly due to a lack of testing), but from what I've seen, Valkyrie is more of a Burst Attack type, while Xcalibur (or previously, Spriggan) are KO Attack. The available tests that Wombat has done comparing Heavy vs Armed's defensive properties, and Xcalibur vs Valkyrie's offensive results indicate that Xcalibur wins primarily through KO, while Valkyrie wins by a mix of KOs and Bursts, bursting opponents more often than Xcalibur, but not KOing as much. Heavy is shown to be KOed less but more vulnerable to Bursting, while the lighter Armed is Bursted less often but KOed more.
The largest problem we have now is that there simply aren't enough tests. The community can sit around and squabble over what we have, but it's ultimately irrelevant unless we can corroborate the tests and theories we have. Honestly, there's little reason to post anything in the Burst Discussion forum unless it's new tests; I feel like almost all discussion topics have been gone over so much that we're just beating a dead horse at this point.
(Apr. 05, 2016 9:17 PM)Ultra Wrote:(Apr. 05, 2016 8:34 PM)1234beyblade Wrote:(Apr. 05, 2016 8:22 PM)Ultra Wrote: Why is Armed under defence types? There has been no real testing posted from what I can see apart from the test posted in the Yggdrasil Claw thread.
Wombat tested different disks and Armed showed that it has the best defense potential out of all other disks.
https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Disks-a...st-Defense
Okay fine but no one backed up his testing. Test results aren't proven till someone till someone can corroborate them. Just because it is his thread doesn't mean he can put up whatever he wants here since this thread actually matters.
Too bad basically no one tests often... I personally always find Wyvern Armed Claw better than Wyvern Heavy Claw for defense, and I also created a combo for a hybrid of Stamina and Defense which is Deathscyther Armed Gyro, it stood up pretty well against VFX (yes the Valkyrie and Deathscyther was new).
Spoiler (Click to View)
Spoiler (Click to View)
(Apr. 05, 2016 9:36 PM)Mitsu Wrote:Quote:Test results aren't proven till someone till someone can corroborates them.
THIS.
Guys, if we really want to add something to the list, we'd like to see more than one sets of tests from more than on user or if not this; tournament experience.
I'm really not sure about Claw and I've never really tested it for defense. I like Heavy because of it's great stamina. Something like Wyvern Armed Claw may have better defense than Wyvern Heavy Claw (for example, of course), but when buying something, you want to consider how versatile something is.
Mitsu you were the one that posted the Claw Discussion. While it wasn't specifically testing for Defense (Beyblade type), you did conclude that Claw outclassed Survive for Stadtionary Defense combos. At the time it was believed Survive also outclassed Defense (Driver) until Defense (Driver) made a comeback in the form of OHD. I do agree that WHC is more versatile than WAC because it also adds some weight to avoid KOs and more Stamina as well.
Side Note: TT why did you name a Driver Defense it makes things so confusing I literally got in an argument with Zoro earlier where we each thought we were talking about a different Defense
(Apr. 05, 2016 9:38 PM)Kai-V Wrote: I thought more than Wombat had tested it, but personally I absolutely did not see why there was so much hype around Armed in my tests.
Due to the lack of formal testing recently (it seems like it's coming back though, which is good) I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't any other Armed tests out there besides mine and the ones loyd87 and MissingNo. recently posted. It seems to have been relatively overlooked due to the bad review Brad gave it on his tumblr, and I only became interested in it enough to test it after Zoroaste repeatedly said that it was the most difficult Disk to Burst. It's definitely possible that
EDIT: my results could be confirmation bias, but several other members have had similar experiences with Armed while others have had opposite experiences where Armed Bursts more than Heavy. (For some reason I forgot to finish this paragraph lol).
(Apr. 05, 2016 9:50 PM)Bey Brad Wrote:Quote:On a (somewhat) related note, Attack and Defense really need to be split into separate sections for KO Attack and Defense and Burst Attack and Defense.
I keep seeing posts like this but don't really understand them, I guess. What good is a defense-type that's awesome at avoiding KOs if it bursts like crazy, or vice-versa? Especially given the low frequency of KOs at this point in the game, I don't understand the purpose of the differentiation.
The best thing I can compare it to is basically what Cake just said, how Zero-G had a similar division for normal Attack/Defense and Zero-G Attack/Defense, but since you are relatively unfamiliar with Zero-G the comparison may be lost on you. :\
While I don't think something that "bursts like crazy" (or get's KOed like crazy) will ever be considered top tier (look at Chaos), I definitely think that the distinction between the two is important because they could defend against different Attack styles. It would be ideal to have a good balance of both but you may lose to a more specialized Attack type opponent. The way I see it it's a tradeoff of moderate coverage against several opponents which eases prediction but makes application/execution tougher, vs. a more guaranteed victory against a certain opponent which eases application/execution but makes prediction tougher.
As for the low frequency of KOs, I have a hunch that that's due to there is not yet a Layer that matches Xtreme quite right, as *Ginga* recently pointed out. The lines between KO Attack/Defense and Burst Attack/Defense seem a little shady at the moment but I suspect the differences between the two will become more apparent with the release of Dual Layers and our first rubber-based Defense Driver, Unite.
(Apr. 06, 2016 6:59 AM)Wombat Wrote: Mitsu you were the one that posted the Claw Discussion. While it wasn't specifically testing for Defense (Beyblade type), you did conclude that Claw outclassed Survive for Stadtionary Defense combos. At the time it was believed Survive also outclassed Defense (Driver) until Defense (Driver) made a comeback in the form of OHD. I do agree that WHC is more versatile than WAC because it also adds some weight to avoid KOs and more Stamina as well.
Ah, forgive me- I had meant Armed.
We should test ring on V2. I think it might be good. Ring has great balance plus is the perfect width to accomodate V2's contact points
We should test ring on V2. I think it might be good. Ring has great balance plus is the perfect width to accomodate V2's contact points as an attack combo
We should test ring on V2. I think it might be good. Ring has great balance plus is the perfect width to accomodate V2's contact points as an attack combo
Whether or not a clear division between KO-Attack and Burst Attack (and consequently, KO-Defense and Burst Defense) ever surfaces, I don't think that it's surfaced yet. So to me it seems too soon to try to draw that line, and more like we're forcing the game to fit into our own preconceived notions.
If the distinction surfaces, then by all means, categorize it.
If the distinction surfaces, then by all means, categorize it.
(Apr. 06, 2016 2:23 PM)bigbangpegs Wrote: We should test ring on V2. I think it might be good. Ring has great balance plus is the perfect width to accomodate V2's contact points
We should test ring on V2. I think it might be good. Ring has great balance plus is the perfect width to accomodate V2's contact points as an attack combo
I don't think many blader outside Japan have it.
Also. Ring has very outward weight distribution, so i think it will be very hard to control (while not many of us can't control Xtreme with heavy) + it's very light which could make it self-ko
I agree about that. At first, through my tests, I would have said that anything with Xtreme increased how many knockouts happened, but overall and after seeing it used more by others, I think it just mixes knockouts and Bursts and does both of them more.
I have a feeling dual layers will change up this list quite a bit. I haven't done too much testing because I don't have a lot of free time, but so far I'd say V2 and O2 will definitely make the cut for attack
I agree with Brad on the different types of attack. Additionally you can't really see several sets of testing an go "that's proof of two different types" based on the results. There are too many variables for you to be able to say that. The testing would need to be redone several times from different people to be able to make a solid conclusion like that.
(Apr. 06, 2016 3:20 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: Whether or not a clear division between KO-Attack and Burst Attack (and consequently, KO-Defense and Burst Defense) ever surfaces, I don't think that it's surfaced yet. So to me it seems too soon to try to draw that line, and more like we're forcing the game to fit into our own preconceived notions.
If the distinction surfaces, then by all means, categorize it.
(Apr. 06, 2016 7:23 PM)Ultra Wrote: I agree with Brad on the different types of attack. Additionally you can't really see several sets of testing an go "that's proof of two different types" based on the results. There are too many variables for you to be able to say that. The testing would need to be redone several times from different people to be able to make a solid conclusion like that.
I also agree about not dividing Attack and Defense into subcategories just yet because we all seem to agree that the line between KO Attack/Defense and Burst Attack/Defense is shady at best. At this point in the game the difference seems almost negligible.
I wouldn't say I am trying to force the game into any preconceived notions however. The whole reason I conducted those tests in the first place was because I was testing a hypothesis I had formed after reading around and seeing everyone else's thoughts on certain parts from their test results/informal observations. The results I got supported my suspicions, so I tried to use my prior knowledge of other generations of Beyblade to explain my observations. However many others seem to be getting results opposite to mine, so it's entirely possible my theory could be complete hogwash (hence the big red disclaimer at the top of my thread).
Whether or not you think my tests are faked just to get Armed on the tier list, I absolutely do want more people to test this theory. If it ends up being incorrect, then that's fine and the thread can be closed to prevent future misinformation, but I do think there is at least some truth to it. Hopefully some of the Dual Layers that don't wear down outclass Valkyrie, because I'm pretty sure that's most of the reason people haven't been testing Burst as frequently.
(Apr. 06, 2016 3:26 PM)Kai-V Wrote: I agree about that. At first, through my tests, I would have said that anything with Xtreme increased how many knockouts happened, but overall and after seeing it used more by others, I think it just mixes knockouts and Bursts and does both of them more.
This is a good example: out of all the many rounds of formal and informal testing I have done with Xcalibur Heavy Xtreme I think it has only won by Burst Finish about 10 times total, 15 at most. Meanwhile everyone else can get XHX to Burst its opponent on a regular basis, which confuses me because I don't understand how any sort of confirmation bias or preconceived notions would change the Bursts I should be getting with XHX into KOs, since I launched XHX the exact same way as I did Valkyrie Force Xtreme and obviously can't control how the match plays out after that.
Whoa, let's be clear: nobody's saying your tests are faked. And I'm not saying you're trying to force the tier list into your preconceived notions. I'm saying we should be careful, as a community, to not do that. 
So I haven't had dual layers for very long, but here are a few combos that I think we should keep an eye on.
Stamina:
Deathscyther Kunckle Revolve
Deathscyther Ring Claw/Fusion
Attack:
Victory Valkyrie/ Obelisk Odin
knuckle/spread/gravity/heavy
accel/xtreme/unite
Defense:
Wyvern Knuckle Revolve
K2 Knuckle Revolve
Balance?:
Deathscyther, Ring/Knuckle, Accel/Zephyr
V2/OO, Knuckle/Ring/Spread, Defense/Press/Gyro/Revolve
I didn't really know how to classify these, I feel like all of those combos could be considered balance some way or another. In my opinion, trying to get knockouts to win a burst battle in a tournament is a silly strategy at this point. The odds of winning by KO were already narrow enough in previous generations because of walls; but now they are decreased significantly on top of that because of the chance of self-bursting. It seems to me that classic "defense" combos don't really need to be super heavy and hard to move around rather need to be very hard to burst and spin for as long as possible. Still, putting Wyvern Knuckle Revolve under defense seems very wierd to me, but I think it's accurate.
Stamina:
Deathscyther Kunckle Revolve
Deathscyther Ring Claw/Fusion
Attack:
Victory Valkyrie/ Obelisk Odin
knuckle/spread/gravity/heavy
accel/xtreme/unite
Defense:
Wyvern Knuckle Revolve
K2 Knuckle Revolve
Balance?:
Deathscyther, Ring/Knuckle, Accel/Zephyr
V2/OO, Knuckle/Ring/Spread, Defense/Press/Gyro/Revolve
I didn't really know how to classify these, I feel like all of those combos could be considered balance some way or another. In my opinion, trying to get knockouts to win a burst battle in a tournament is a silly strategy at this point. The odds of winning by KO were already narrow enough in previous generations because of walls; but now they are decreased significantly on top of that because of the chance of self-bursting. It seems to me that classic "defense" combos don't really need to be super heavy and hard to move around rather need to be very hard to burst and spin for as long as possible. Still, putting Wyvern Knuckle Revolve under defense seems very wierd to me, but I think it's accurate.
Knuckle, though, hah?