World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Beyblade Discussion Beyblade General

Banning light blue Dark Deathscyther?

Jan. 21, 2017  4:07 PM
 
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We already had a topic about banning Deathscyther previously, which also touched upon banning Dark Deathscyther as well: https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-The-Cas...ament-Play

However, recently @[FIREFIRE CPB] brought up in the Organizers' Circle forum that the light blue Dark Deathscyther available in the B-61 Random Booster Vol. 4 had teeth so "sticky" (several Members have reported this) that the combination it was in would not even burst upon being grabbed mid-spin. Any Blader who ever played with Burst Beyblades knows that Beyblades almost always separate if you grab them while they are spinning, from the top instead of from the bottom. As you can guess, sure this is not "illegal" since the part comes that way, but this is Beyblade Burst, so that is not supposed to happen. That part clearly has a very unfair advantage. 

FIREFIRE CPB was supposed to upload a video showing this phenomenon happening in multiple battles, but I think this has not been done yet. 


What we need to do is determine if the burst rate is really lower than average, if it goes as far as not bursting when grabbed mid-spin, and discuss whether that deserves a ban. 


So what do you think?

When replying, state whether you own this Dark Deathscyther and how much you have won with it in tournaments.
Jan. 21, 2017  4:58 PM
 
I do not own this Dark DeathScyther, but I am pretty sure that I used Naru Blader's for a few rounds during a Deck Rotation tournament. I don't remember how successful I was, but I do know that I was having trouble disassembling his blue D2 as even when it was fully untwisted and it shouldn't be assembled, it was still attached. It does give an unfair advantage, and I would think that the best course of action is for the judge to decide wheather the player's Dark DeathScyther is fair to use.

I would like to hear @[Naru Blader]'s thoughts on this, since he owns one. I also think he mentioned at the same Deck Rotation tournament that his yellow D2 was sticky too.
Jan. 21, 2017  5:06 PM
 
Same here, I even asked here if it was normal, right now I don't use it because I fear I might break something

Has I'm not a competitive player (there are no tournaments in my country) I can't say if it's worth or unworth banning
Jan. 21, 2017  5:24 PM
 
I have two of these and in my experience, they became less "sticky" very quickly after my first couple uses with them. I haven't tried all of my parts of course, but now they are only "sticky" when I use it in combination with Press for some reason. I know it's the same for @[1234beyblade]. And even though it is sticky, I've tested it and it still can get bursted easily by counters like Minoboros. Perhaps it would prevent it from being bursted in very specific situations where a lighter hit might normally burst it, but I find the effect to be negligible in the two that I have, especially considering it only works with a bad Driver like Press. But if FIREFIRE CPB can pick his up from the top without it bursting, his might be worse than mine.

I'd like to hear more from people like 1234beyblade who also have it, but if we are to take any action I would say rather than banning it, judges should inspect it before every battle if a player is going to use it to determine if it comes apart properly or not (because in my experience, it varies depending on the parts in use, and based on my description versus how you're describing FIREFIRE CPB's, there is a difference between how "sticky" some of these Layers are).
Jan. 21, 2017  6:13 PM
 
But would you say it ever becomes normal after a while? Because all you are describing is that it becomes less 'sticky', which means that it remains so to a certain extent.

And the judge would still end up banning it if it was considered too 'sticky', right? As much as I trust judges, I think the opponent should get the chance to judge whether the part is normal or not too.
Jan. 21, 2017  7:24 PM
 
In my experience (as I own this part) I find that it still Bursts easily even though it seems "sticky" in assembly/disassembly. I know at the Montreal tournament where I opened mine, we WERE worried about it, because we could tell it didn't come apart like normal? But when we used it, it was no more successful than our other Dark Deathscyther layers (so, as Kei said, the difference was indeed negligible).

I think before considering a ban, it would be cool to have users do some testing with it vs. other Dark Deathscyther layers. It's just difficult, because as a random booster layer that won't be incredibly easy to get in the future, users may not want to wear it out by testing.
Jan. 21, 2017  7:38 PM
 
I don't like Dark Deathscyther although it is very powerful. Unhappy
Jan. 21, 2017  9:12 PM
 
(Jan. 21, 2017  6:13 PM)Kai-V Wrote: But would you say it ever becomes normal after a while? Because all you are describing is that it becomes less 'sticky', which means that it remains so to a certain extent.

And the judge would still end up banning it if it was considered too 'sticky', right? As much as I trust judges, I think the opponent should get the chance to judge whether the part is normal or not too.

Yes, mine have. Except with Press. But even with Press, although it is slightly sticky, this isn't reliable and I haven't noticed any observable advantages to using it when I'm able to get it to "stick".

And yes, I would say that would be the case. I don't think the opponent should have a say; the judge needs to be able to make the right and most unbiased decision.
Jan. 21, 2017  9:49 PM
 
Kei's experience with the blue D2 is the same as mine minus the part about Press. It's connection to the Driver started off a little rough, but in practice, I haven't noticed any difference in its actual performance that would make me choose it over the black D2 I currently use.
Jan. 22, 2017  12:45 AM
 
I have the light blue D2 and burst just as often as my yellow one. We shouldn't have to ban it, besides the sticky teeth become normal after at least 10 or so battles
Jan. 22, 2017  1:03 AM
 
Honestly, this only happens to me with specific part combinations, it is actually a lot more loose than my black D2s when using part combos such as Spread Defense/Orbit, especially Orbit, it makes it extremely easy to burst. The only part combo that I found that made it really unburstable was with Press, but press has terrible stamina so obviously that wouldn't help it at all in actual battle.

I think we need to look more into this with actual comparison tests between other D2 and this light blue one.
Jan. 22, 2017  1:12 AM
 
When I tested mine a week after rbv4 came out the blue D2 definitely takes more effort to disassemble than other D2 layers. However I don't think it gives an unfair advantage in battle.
Jan. 22, 2017  1:17 AM
 
(Jan. 22, 2017  1:12 AM)Basedsamuraij Wrote: When I tested mine a week after rbv4 came out the blue D2 definitely takes more effort to disassemble than other D2 layers. However I don't think it gives an unfair advantage in battle.

This post is an antithesis though: it cannot be very difficult to disassemble and that that does not translate into being harder to burst in battle, therefore giving it an unfair advantage... 

It does look like not all light blue Dark Deathscythers exhibit the same issue, but at the same time, should a prime light blue Dark Deathscyther be allowed, then? If it only becomes normal after ten battles, why should it be allowed before then?
Jan. 22, 2017  5:40 AM
 
I've never personally experienced this issue with my blue D2. It is just as easy to assemble/disassemble as the black one I had, but I haven't tried it on all my Drivers yet so I'm not sure if there's a special one (like Kei/1234beyblade's Press) that makes it 'sticky' for me. When I was testing various Burst Attack combos over the break I didn't find the blue D2 any more difficult to burst than the black one, and in tournaments my blue one has actually bursted more - geetster99 was able to burst the blue one during our Deck Rotation match with Valtyrek V2 Knuckle Variable, whereas my black one didn't burst once against Time's Valkyrie Magnum Xtreme. Then again, I've played only 4 official matches using D2, so my sample size of 2 is pretty small.

If anything, this needs to be done on a part-by-part basis. 'Sticky' D2 could technically be viewed as a defective part (as it does not perform the way it is supposed to, even if it performs better than it should), and should be treated as such by the rules if it is shown to perform significantly differently in battle. If a player showed up to a battle with a deformed X2 layer or a lopsided-carp RF they would not be allowed to use those parts even if they came that way in the box, since it's a manufacturing error that causes the part to perform differently.

EDIT: On second thought, it's also possible we could treat this as if it were a case of abnormally high weight or perfect balance in a part (since, like both of those, the 'stickiness' of certain D2s is natural variation). Players who are lucky enough to have, say, a 44 gram Duo or a perfect balance Wyvern will have a similarly unfair advantage over their opponents as those who have a 'sticky' D2, but due to how difficult it would be to regulate weight/balance/stickiness at tournaments they remained unbanned despite their 'unfairness'.

Either way, I haven't seen enough complaints about blue D2 being overpowered to think it needs to be banned. Out of curiosity, do we know what causes certain blue D2s to be 'sticky'?
Jan. 23, 2017  1:44 PM
 
I actually like it. Besides, I kind of like the mechanic that it wouldn't burst often. Like Roktavor. I might try to find one... Then I'd make a really good combo.
Jan. 23, 2017  2:17 PM
 
(Jan. 23, 2017  1:44 PM)Ton Lunk Wrote: I actually like it. Besides, I kind of like the mechanic that it wouldn't burst often. Like Roktavor. I might try to find one... Then I'd make a really good combo.

Reason it may be banned because due to it may give people who have it an unfair advantage to one who have it. As it is already so powerful (it's very hard to KO, Very had to OS due to it can destablize everything) and if you make it unburstable it will I'm sure will be Odin-Tier

Just think about a D2 which is perfectly balanced (I think mine was) and it has those super sticky teeths (like mine lel)
BTW as an update. I seen mine is most sticky with it's green Orbit Driver. On other drivers it rarely get that much sticky (little bit on Green Revovle but no where near as Orbit) It's so hard to get appart I have to pull it hard to make it separate. Even then it sometimes just don't want to get appart.

Though tapping it some time (not sure how to say) on hand make it burst (when it's on 0 clicks to burst lel and stuck lolhaha)

sorry for not making video in so many days but was kinda busy this month. I will try to get video up asap (maybe by 26th?)
Jan. 23, 2017  7:44 PM
 
(Jan. 22, 2017  1:17 AM)Kai-V Wrote: This post is an antithesis though: it cannot be very difficult to disassemble and that that does not translate into being harder to burst in battle, therefore giving it an unfair advantage... 

It does look like not all light blue Dark Deathscythers exhibit the same issue, but at the same time, should a prime light blue Dark Deathscyther be allowed, then? If it only becomes normal after ten battles, why should it be allowed before then?

Perhaps I should be a bit more specific here. With my light blue dark deathcyther layer I could completely unclick it but the parts would remain together. This problem didn't continue throughout that layers use but It definitely was noticeable in the first few days. (I think Hato also described a similiar situation) 

It's a hard decision to make, where do we draw the line on the stickyness of a layer's teeth?
Jan. 24, 2017  12:21 AM
 
Blue D2 only seems to stick wen its brand new right out of the box. After disasseming it a few times, it becomes normal
Jan. 24, 2017  12:26 AM
 
OK, so why would it be legal when it is straight out of the box?
Jan. 24, 2017  12:30 AM
 
I think whoever the judge is should determine if it is sticky or not. we need some sort of restriction on it
Jan. 24, 2017  12:39 AM
 
I really don't think it needs any sort of restriction. The rules state that it is legal as long as it performs the way it normally does without modification. If this is how The blue D2 acts straight out of the box I think it's fine. It's not a malfunction because it resolves itself simply by using it a few times. I would only suggest that the judge simply checks the blue D2 to see if it's sticky before the match starts if it is sticky then the player can not use the piece until the matter is resolved
Jan. 24, 2017  12:42 AM
 
I don't own any D2 parts myself, but if I ever get any, I will definitely have to keep this in mind, especially if it does become a banned part. Would it just be this blue D2 that gets banned or would all recolours + the original fall to the same fate as well? Or would it just be this one, as i've not heard of the other D2s having the same complication.
Jan. 24, 2017  12:45 AM
 
(Jan. 24, 2017  12:39 AM)Naru Blader Wrote: I really don't think it needs any sort of restriction. The rules state that it is legal as long as it performs the way it normally does without modification. If this is how The blue D2 acts straight out of the box I think it's fine. It's not a malfunction because it resolves itself simply by using it a few times. I would only suggest that the judge simply checks the blue D2 to see if it's sticky before the match starts if it is sticky then the player can not use the piece until the matter is resolved

If it were to be the intended performance, clearly all Dark Deathscythers would perform the same. We are likely talking about a manufacturing flaw that gives a very deeply unfair advantage in a game where Beyblades are supposed to burst.


(Jan. 24, 2017  12:42 AM)LordSigma Wrote: I don't own any D2 parts myself, but if I ever get any, I will definitely have to keep this in mind, especially if it does become a banned part. Would it just be this blue D2 that gets banned or would all recolours + the original fall to the same fate as well? Or would it just be this one, as i've not heard of the other D2s having the same complication.

It would only be the light blue Dark Deathscyther, as the opening post explains.
Jan. 24, 2017  12:48 AM
 
Indeed, however as every person that owns the blue D2 that has posted here mentioned,  it did not burst any less the the original black one.

Edit: I would not even consider this a flaw as the part performs just as any D2
Jan. 24, 2017  12:53 AM
 
(Jan. 24, 2017  12:48 AM)Naru Blader Wrote: Indeed, however as every person that owns the blue D2 that has posted here mentioned,  it did not burst any less the the original black one.

Edit: I would not even consider this a flaw as the part performs just as any D2

No, some people did mention that they realised at the end of some of their battles that their Dark Deathscyther had skipped all its teeth and had not burst yet.
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