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Ban Odin Heavy Defense ?

Jan. 24, 2016  3:45 PM
 
Odin Heavy Defense is definitely dominating the meta. As much as the whole combo can be banned, what about just banning Odin? Odin doesn't seem to be used much, if at all outside of Odin Heavy Defense. Just a thought, though. Smile

I think that there should be a trial ban, to see how the meta fares without OHD. With Xtreme being risky at first and difficult to master, OHD is probably going to still be the safe option.

I have to say that @[Angry Face]'s post was great, and I couldn't agree more with it Smile

I'm all for a ban on Odin Heavy Defense, but think that potentially banning Odin or Heavy could be another option (but banning OHD in its entirety would probably be a better option; not as many complications).

EDIT: Can't forget about geet's great post! Wink
Jan. 24, 2016  3:54 PM
 
(Jan. 24, 2016  3:45 PM)Hato Wrote: Odin Heavy Defense is definitely dominating the meta. As much as the whole combo can be banned, what about just banning Odin? Odin doesn't seem to be used much, if at all outside of Odin Heavy Defense. Just a thought, though. Smile

I think that there should be a trial ban, to see how the meta fares without OHD. With Xtreme being risky at first and difficult to master, OHD is probably going to still be the safe option.

I have to say that @[Angry Face]'s post was great, and I couldn't agree more with it Smile

I'm all for a ban on Odin Heavy Defense, but think that potentially banning Odin or Heavy could be another option (but banning OHD in its entirety would probably be a better option; not as many complications).

Woh. That would be meta-game madness!
sorry

Odin isn't really ban-worthy. The layer isn't amazing for really, anything else other than OHD. Nothing stellar.
Heavy intrigues me though. I know why it's so good; because the B-09 has a really big slope compared to past stadiums, making it tougher to KO OHD, as Defense keeps it centered and Odin is hard to Burst.
I mean, maybe the weight is the issue here. But since Japan appears to use Deathscyther Heavy Defense, wouldn't we have the same issue? But yes, it appears that just taking out OHD would make the most sense.
Jan. 24, 2016  4:58 PM
 
In my humble opinion, I don't think we need to ban OHD. In my tests I have found that VHX (still not sure about VFX, but maybe that too) can take it out pretty well. I have found OHN to be much more powerful, because it can avoid the attacker really well. You definitely need to practice with and wear down Xtreme to get good with it, but once you do, you should be able to take out OHD over 50% of the time. I think that OHN is far better than OHD, so I don't see the sense in banning OHD exclusively. And then, if you ban OHD and OHN, it will be OHB that dominates. I think, if we are to ban anything, it should be one specific part, Odin or Heavy. I would love to see a ban on Heavy, to let the other disks have a chance to shine, but I am not so sure it would solve the problem. I guess it would be a good place to start and then ban Odin if needed. Or maybe just ban them both and see how that goes.

Edit: I wasn't thinking of the implications that banning Heavy may have on attack as well, so maybe banning Heavy altogether isn't the answer.
Jan. 24, 2016  6:03 PM
 
I'll post more thoughts lately, but right now I am more inclined to ban Heavy instead of OHD or just Odin. The Toronto metagame is pretty well developed, so I think it's fair to wait until after Beyblade Shogatsu before we make any decisions. We could be surprised.
Jan. 24, 2016  7:13 PM
 
I think the heavy part should just be banned altogether its too overpowered. The simple fact that it makes beys heavier gives any bey that uses it a HUGE advantage think about hades or basalt from MFB.
Jan. 24, 2016  7:39 PM
 
Okay, so I made that video... and i've concluded that banning Heavy just on Odin would be the best way to go, because it wouldn't completely make the layer useless though it would nerf it quite a bit making attack types at least have a chance at beating it even at low spin velocity. I tested VHX vs OH/S/RD and VHX lost all its rounds against OHD, and it won all its rounds against OS/RD while still losing quite a bit of clicks from Odin, making it somewhat more fair because Odin still has a small chance of winning, but now the attack type has a greater chance of winning a match against Odin.

The problem with banning Heavy as a whole is that Attack types would become a lot more fragile, i did a battle between AHX and OHD, Amaterios won both its rounds by burst finish, and when i put Spread/Ring on Amaterios against OR/SD it began to have double burst finishes and it tended to lose a lot more clicks on Ring and Spread.

Banning a single combo like OHD would not work either because OHS is literally almost just as good as OHD, as i proved in the video (where rotation velocity determines the winner of a battle between OHD and OHS). Also Chaos is no counter to Odin, if Odin is launched hard enough it bursts Chaos like it's nothing while losing no clicks itself. I only found one real counter to OHD while doing my testings and they were AHX, XHX, and DHS. With Deathscyther, it's a match of who launches better, and obviously something like AHX and XHX take a lot of skill to actually win with.

Lastly I know these were solo tests... When i tested AHX with Mitsu against OHD it tended to lose a lot more than when I test the bey by myself, and obviously that makes sense because one on one is a lot different from solo tests. Also I do realize these tests are quite invalid due to the small amount of rounds presented in the video which each combo, but it is the best I could do with the time that I have right now. Hopefully they at least weren't for nothing.

(Video will be up in about 1 hour, too impatient to wait for the video to post this reply lol)
Jan. 24, 2016  7:53 PM
 
And Odin on Spread, like Odin Spread Survive if you believe that Odin Heavy Survive is just as overpowered as Odin Heavy Defense, is much more tolerable ? I mean, some people prefer Survive with Spread.
Jan. 24, 2016  8:01 PM
 
(Jan. 24, 2016  7:53 PM)Kai-V Wrote: And Odin on Spread, like Odin Spread Survive if you believe that Odin Heavy Survive is just as overpowered as Odin Heavy Defense, is much more tolerable ? I mean, some people prefer Survive with Spread.

It's much easier to burst so it's not as much of a threat as Heavy. Generally Defense is just harder to burst because it's much more compact that say survive, also Heavy works best with Odin, it seems as if the other disks just deteriorate on its overall stamina.
Jan. 24, 2016  8:14 PM
 
I think OHD or OHS could be temporarily banned at least until its is outclassed. I know this will create another problem: what do you do about the combo that outclasses it?

When I test attack combos like VHX (which may be one of the best attack combos out there right now) against OHD/OHS it just verifies that Takara Tomy does no kind of testing itself when they develop new beys. In the current game OHD especially is kind of a safe combo for those that just don't want to lose. I think it is too early to ban OHD or OHS because Takara Tomy is still releasing new beys and parts that could later render Odin+Heavy obsolete

-ZK
Jan. 24, 2016  8:25 PM
 
(Jan. 24, 2016  8:14 PM)Zach_Kamikaze Wrote: I think OHD or OHS could be temporarily banned at least until its is outclassed. I know this will create another problem: what do you do about the combo that outclasses it?

When I test attack combos like VHX (which may be one of the best attack combos out there right now) against OHD/OHS it just verifies that Takara Tomy does no kind of testing itself when they develop new beys. In the current game OHD especially is kind of a safe combo for those that just don't want to lose. I think it is too early to ban OHD or OHS because Takara Tomy is still releasing new beys and parts that could later render Odin+Heavy obsolete

-ZK

We are litterally too late in stopping Odin Heavy Defense, so we cannot afford to wait even more in hope that all both Neptune and Yggdrasil outclass it or at least make it tolerable. And that is in a while; do you know how many Burst-format tournaments can happen in a month, still with this overpowered combination and the predictable outcome ?
Jan. 24, 2016  8:36 PM
 
(Jan. 24, 2016  8:14 PM)Zach_Kamikaze Wrote: I think OHD or OHS could be temporarily banned at least until its is outclassed. I know this will create another problem: what do you do about the combo that outclasses it?

When I test attack combos like VHX (which may be one of the best attack combos out there right now) against OHD/OHS it just verifies that Takara Tomy does no kind of testing itself when they develop new beys. In the current game OHD especially is kind of a safe combo for those that just don't want to lose. I think it is too early to ban OHD or OHS because Takara Tomy is still releasing new beys and parts that could later render Odin+Heavy obsolete

-ZK

If there is a combo that outclasses it, hopefully it isn't even more overpowered. If there is a worst situation than OHD right now; that's another story.

It's not really too early, where we've already had multiple releases and there is still problems trying to beat it. This combo is way too versatile (not sure if that's the right word, maybe too strong?), as it has good Defense; burst Defense and KO(?)/regular(?) Defense, along with having decent stamina.

Thank you @[1234beyblade] for that great post. I have to agree that attack would suffer, as I've seen amaterios Spread Xtreme not do as well as amaterios Spread Xtreme.

I would side with banning Odin, as besides being used (VERY commonly) in Odin Heavy Defense/Survive, it's not used much in other combos found, as well as OHD/S being much safer options than other Odin combos found.
Jan. 24, 2016  8:50 PM
 
(Jan. 24, 2016  8:36 PM)Hato Wrote:
(Jan. 24, 2016  8:14 PM)Zach_Kamikaze Wrote: I think OHD or OHS could be temporarily banned at least until its is outclassed. I know this will create another problem: what do you do about the combo that outclasses it?

When I test attack combos like VHX (which may be one of the best attack combos out there right now) against OHD/OHS it just verifies that Takara Tomy does no kind of testing itself when they develop new beys. In the current game OHD especially is kind of a safe combo for those that just don't want to lose. I think it is too early to ban OHD or OHS because Takara Tomy is still releasing new beys and parts that could later render Odin+Heavy obsolete

-ZK

If there is a combo that outclasses it, hopefully it isn't even more overpowered. If there is a worst situation than OHD right now; that's another story.

It's not really too early, where we've already had multiple releases and there is still problems trying to beat it. This combo is way too versatile (not sure if that's the right word, maybe too strong?), as it has good Defense; burst Defense and KO(?)/regular(?) Defense, along with having decent stamina.

Thank you @[1234beyblade] for that great post. I have to agree that attack would suffer, as I've seen amaterios Spread Xtreme not do as well as amaterios Spread Xtreme.

I would side with banning Odin, as besides being used (VERY commonly) in Odin Heavy Defense/Survive, it's not used much in other combos found, as well as OHD/S being much safer options than other Odin combos found.

I would not give up hope. Takara Tomy may surprise us with the rumored "dual layers" that may solve the problem but I agree banning OHD/OHS should have happened a long time ago but all the releases of 2016 have just not happened yet. That is why I still have hope that Odin defense combos will eventually die.
Jan. 24, 2016  8:50 PM
 
If a new part makes this ban redundant, we would definitely repeal the ban immediately.
Jan. 24, 2016  8:53 PM
 
Oh yes, nobody should worry : bans are temporary as long as the toyline is still active hah.
Jan. 24, 2016  9:11 PM
 
i agree to ban OHD

i actually don't have any experience with odin but i think to prevent meta-game from breaking we should do something asap.

can we ban Odin with Non and Semi-Agressive Drivers or with specific combination with drivers? i don't think banning Heavy will make any difference [we have many more disk that will work as great lol] or banning Odin may work but i think Odin will agressive drivers isn't as big issue as stationery and semi aggressive drivers drivers [like Defence, Needle, Blow]
Jan. 24, 2016  9:18 PM
 
Given 1234Beyblades argument, I believe that banning Heavy on Odin would be the best solution. This way attack isn't hurt and the OPness of OH_ is taken care of, no matter what driver you put it on
Jan. 24, 2016  9:26 PM
 
(Jan. 24, 2016  9:11 PM)FIREFIRE Wrote: i agree to ban OHD

i actually don't have any experience with odin but i think to prevent meta-game from breaking we should do something asap.

can we ban Odin with Non and Semi-Agressive Drivers or with specific combination with drivers? i don't think banning Heavy will make any difference [we have many more disk that will work as great lol] or banning Odin may work but i think Odin will agressive drivers isn't as big issue as stationery and semi aggressive drivers drivers [like Defence, Needle, Blow]

I personally think that banning Odin with specific variations would be too complicated, as the main issue is really Defense and Survive anyways.

Banning Heavy would weaken attack, and it's already having problems as it is, so if Odin or Odin Heavy Defense/Survive get (trial) banned, then Attack would have a big problem...

The only thing I think needs banning is Odin and/or Odin Heavy Defense/Survive. I am interested to see how Odin Heavy Needle performs, as it essentially an aggressive Defense.
Jan. 24, 2016  9:28 PM
 
(Jan. 24, 2016  9:18 PM)Zoroaste Wrote: Given 1234Beyblades argument, I believe that banning Heavy on Odin would be the best solution. This way attack isn't hurt and the OPness of OH_ is taken care of, no matter what driver you put it on

but still we have other disk like Ring and Spread which can perform as good [actually i think ORD < OHD]
(Jan. 24, 2016  9:26 PM)Hato Wrote:
(Jan. 24, 2016  9:11 PM)FIREFIRE Wrote: i agree to ban OHD

i actually don't have any experience with odin but i think to prevent meta-game from breaking we should do something asap.

can we ban Odin with Non and Semi-Agressive Drivers or with specific combination with drivers? i don't think banning Heavy will make any difference [we have many more disk that will work as great lol] or banning Odin may work but i think Odin will agressive drivers isn't as big issue as stationery and semi aggressive drivers drivers [like Defence, Needle, Blow]

I personally think that banning Odin with specific variations would be too complicated, as the main issue is really Defense and Survive anyways.

Banning Heavy would weaken attack, and it's already having problems as it is, so if Odin or Odin Heavy Defense/Survive get (trial) banned, then Attack would have a big problem...

The only thing I think needs banning is Odin and/or Odin Heavy Defense/Survive. I am interested to see how Odin Heavy Needle performs, as it essentially an aggressive Defense.

yeah i agree, but we still have Blow which can perform as good again. i think banning odin would be less complicated and allow for more combos to shine [on winning combos thread i can't see anything else then OHD on 1st place. lol which prove how much it is spammed]
Jan. 24, 2016  9:55 PM
 
Okay it's finally up!

Jan. 24, 2016  10:25 PM
 
I think I have less experience with Odin Heavy Survive than other players, but I believe Defense still has the upper hand over Survive. Defense can continue to stay upright when hit and still have a good amount of stamina. This generally isn't the case with a stationary Survive. With how much use of Odin Heavy Defense we've seen due the safety of it, I think it seems more ideal to give it a ban than it is Odin Heavy Survive.

Heavy is definitely Burst's best, most versatile Disk, but as it's been covered, it would definitely affect stamina and defense combos. It is less deserving of a ban than Odin is because of it.
Jan. 24, 2016  10:28 PM
 
Mitsu that's not the point, the point is that even if OHD gets banned other OH combos will appear and once again dominate, it wasn't to show which one is better.
Jan. 24, 2016  10:44 PM
 
Yes, I know that. My comment wasn't in relation to your video, haha. You had mentioned previously that Odin Heavy Survive had been better than Odin Heavy Defense. I had just put the flaws of the combo out there.

EDIT: Probably could have mentioned who that previous commented was directed to. Sorry about that!
Jan. 24, 2016  11:25 PM
 
All that video showed was that attack destroy's Odin. Amaterios and Excalibur destroyed Odin and Deathsycther outspun it (also I'm not sure where this full rotation rule came from, if that was a rule spin equalizer match ups would be insane). All that video did was show that Odin doesn't need to be banned...
Jan. 25, 2016  12:10 AM
 
(Jan. 24, 2016  11:25 PM)Thunder Dome Wrote: All that video showed was that attack destroy's Odin. Amaterios and Excalibur destroyed Odin and Deathsycther outspun it (also I'm not sure where this full rotation rule came from, if that was a rule spin equalizer match ups would be insane). All that video did was show that Odin doesn't need to be banned...

You forgot two things
1. I said ban Odin + Heavy, the beginning was just a hypothesis.
2. Those tests were scratching the surface for two reasons, the fact that there was 1-5 rounds of testing and the fact that it was all solo (in tournaments it's clearly over powering everything).

Just a side note I'm the only one that has positive results with Xcalibur, Zoro only got 25% against OHD in his tests, Stars says it sucks, and so does everyone that has tested it before. You also missed the fact that Amaterios is rare and not easily accessible, and the fact that i mentioned how the tests varied a lot in a one on one match in my previous post. Lastly the fact that a battle between OHS and DHS is a matter of who launches better makes Odin still over powered, so honestly there is no certain counter to Odin unless you have Amaterios and you're good with Xtreme.

Also about the Full Rotation thing, in Toronto tourneys this has been used a couple times though I think that the rules clearly imply that if a beyblade is still visibly spinning it has won, and yeah DHS was spinning rather clearly then so it was just my misunderstanding. http://prntscr.com/9ueg64
Jan. 25, 2016  12:23 AM
 
even though i have never used burst, i 100% agree with banning ohd, and just heavy in general. it would increase diversity in the competitive metagame by a ton.
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