[BURST LIMITED Proposal] Unban Ace, Slash, Erase, & Venom + GEN

Poll: Should ACE, SLASH, VENOM, and ERASE + GEN be unbanned from Burst limited?

Yes
32.00%
16
No
26.00%
13
Needs Testing First
40.00%
20
Indifferent
2.00%
1
Total: 100% 50 vote(s)
Hello fellow Bladers! 

I began this conversation in the #burst-limited channel in the WBO discord, with our Organized Play team, and with our Organizers, but wanted to run this by the larger WBO community for your thoughts, insights, and inputs. Thanks to TSO for the crowdsourcing suggestion.

I wanted to propose allowing certain GT layer combinations in Limited. Primarily, I am thinking Gen on some GT Layers. This would help make the format more accessible to players, though there are some risks as well.

We currently allow hasbro Turbo layers that should weigh roughly the same as some GT layers on Gen.
Of course, this needs testing and risks over complicating the ruleset/ banlist but wanted to hear your guys's thoughts.

Along with GEN, the GT parts I was thinking could be include into the Limited formate were: 

Layer Bases:
Ace
Slash 
Erase
Venom

Chips:
Every GT Chip except Diabolos1 

Also, locking these parts to GEN means that a player would only be able to use 1 GT combo per match Deck Format. This seems like a nice way to control the use of GT in Limited, too. 


To give more context for this proposal, my push for accessibility is in response to feedback from my community, particularly in response to Burst Classic and how inaccessible it to many NYC bladers. As an organizer, I want to serve them to the best of my ability and care for making play equitable and accessible to our larger community. 

Given that Limited is still in an experimental stage, it would be great to include these Layer Bases and Chips in our unranked events for the sake of collecting data on their impact on the format.

That being said, I would love to hear what you guys think. Many thanks in advance for your thoughts!
This is an interesting proposal to say the least. I’m shocked you’re wanting to unban Slash. I have beard the burst risk does make it risky using, but shouldn’t the attack be too powerful for Limited Format? As for the other ones, I could probably see them being unbanned considering they’re not really any good for attack (Except maybe Venom) and their shapes sure don’t give them potential anywhere else (Erase and Ace).
I don’t think this is a good idea unless there is restrictions in place.
(Aug. 27, 2020  11:18 PM)BuilderROB Wrote: This is an interesting proposal to say the least. I’m shocked you’re wanting to unban Slash. I have beard the burst risk does make it risky using, but shouldn’t the attack be too powerful for Limited Format? As for the other ones, I could probably see them being unbanned considering they’re not really any good for attack (Except maybe Venom) and their shapes sure don’t give them potential anywhere else (Erase and Ace).

Thanks for weighing in! In regards to Slash + GEN, I don't see it being more powerful than other attackers in the format like Z Achilles, especially given the fact that it's attack power is drastically reduced without a metal layer weight.
I mean sure the weight is pretty in line, but gen makes layers pretty much unburstable, and things like Ace are going to be super good for Defense
(Aug. 27, 2020  11:25 PM)LazerBeamz Wrote:
(Aug. 27, 2020  11:18 PM)BuilderROB Wrote: This is an interesting proposal to say the least. I’m shocked you’re wanting to unban Slash. I have beard the burst risk does make it risky using, but shouldn’t the attack be too powerful for Limited Format? As for the other ones, I could probably see them being unbanned considering they’re not really any good for attack (Except maybe Venom) and their shapes sure don’t give them potential anywhere else (Erase and Ace).

Thanks for weighing in! In regards to Slash + GEN, I don't see it being more powerful than other attackers in the format like Z Achilles, especially given the fact that it's attack power is drastically reduced without a metal layer weight.

Interesting. I’ll be testing this in a bit. It’ll definitely be interesting to see how well it does.
(Aug. 27, 2020  11:27 PM)bladekid Wrote: I mean sure the weight is pretty in line, but gen makes layers pretty much unburstable, and things like Ace are going to be super good for Defense

We technically don't have a good defense layer putting Alter Chronos aside. Aas you saw in my match that I've lost because of aC recoil.

Honestly with all the availability that Hasbro has to offer seems a bit unfair for us Takara only bladers, We should definitely allow these in this format.
(Aug. 27, 2020  11:49 PM)Yami Wrote:
(Aug. 27, 2020  11:27 PM)bladekid Wrote: I mean sure the weight is pretty in line, but gen makes layers pretty much unburstable, and things like Ace are going to be super good for Defense

We technically don't have a good defense layer putting Alter Chronos aside. Aas you saw in my match that I've lost because of aC recoil.

Honestly with all the availability that Hasbro has to offer seems a bit unfair for us Takara only bladers, We should definitely allow these in this format.

Don’t we have Arc Bahamut? Not to mention Shadow/Shining Amaterios. We definitely have good defense layers for Limited besides Alter Chronos.
I could imagine Odin and Achilles being an issue, so they may have to be rebanned if they do become one. Spriggan and Diabolos II both have the same weakness in a short tooth path (which Is why I dislike them), so I see them not being an issue despite the hype they get.

I mainly foresee Slash Odin/Ashura/Achilles and Ace Odin/Achilles/Valkyrie combos popping up.
(Aug. 27, 2020  11:49 PM)Yami Wrote:
(Aug. 27, 2020  11:27 PM)bladekid Wrote: I mean sure the weight is pretty in line, but gen makes layers pretty much unburstable, and things like Ace are going to be super good for Defense

We technically don't have a good defense layer putting Alter Chronos aside. Aas you saw in my match that I've lost because of aC recoil.

Honestly with all the availability that Hasbro has to offer seems a bit unfair for us Takara only bladers, We should definitely allow  these in this format.
Ok, but that same set of circumstances happened to Hasbro's best Defense type and it was clearly a fluke. I also get that with the large amount of Hasbro stuff it's a problem, but I'm also for banning all of the Hasbro GT stuff too.
How about Bushin and possibly Union maybe just any base with plastic except for maybe heaven.
(Aug. 27, 2020  11:52 PM)BuilderROB Wrote:
(Aug. 27, 2020  11:49 PM)Yami Wrote: We technically don't have a good defense layer putting Alter Chronos aside. Aas you saw in my match that I've lost because of aC recoil.

Honestly with all the availability that Hasbro has to offer seems a bit unfair for us Takara only bladers, We should definitely allow  these in this format.

Don’t we have Arc Bahamut? Not to mention Shadow/Shining Amaterios. We definitely have good defense layers for Limited besides Alter Chronos.

aB teeths skippppps. There's been talks about sA being banned because of how good it is.
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:05 AM)6Jupiter5 Wrote: How about Bushin and possibly Union?

Not Union.
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:07 AM)g2_ Wrote:
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:05 AM)6Jupiter5 Wrote: How about Bushin and possibly Union?

Not Union.

Why not?
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:08 AM)6Jupiter5 Wrote:
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:07 AM)g2_ Wrote: Not Union.

Why not?

I think it is too good.
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:06 AM)Yami Wrote:
(Aug. 27, 2020  11:52 PM)BuilderROB Wrote: Don’t we have Arc Bahamut? Not to mention Shadow/Shining Amaterios. We definitely have good defense layers for Limited besides Alter Chronos.

aB teeths skippppps.

Arc Bahamut works well on defense combos. Keep’ for example. Also Orbit Metal combos as well. It does have the bursting issue (Not on dash drivers though), although a weak launch can mitigate that.
If you are only allowed to use the gen chip in the get bey layers, then I don’t think there’s a point in having them because of the super light weight
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:08 AM)g2_ Wrote:
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:08 AM)6Jupiter5 Wrote: Why not?

I think it is too good.

Why?

(Aug. 28, 2020  12:09 AM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: If you are only allowed to use the gen chip in the get bey layers, then I don’t think there’s a point in having them because of the super light weight

You get weight from the chip and the gen weight along with the disk and driver.
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:10 AM)6Jupiter5 Wrote:
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:08 AM)g2_ Wrote: I think it is too good.

Why?

(Aug. 28, 2020  12:09 AM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: If you are only allowed to use the gen chip in the get bey layers, then I don’t think there’s a point in having them because of the super light weight

You get weight from the chip and the gen weight along with the disk and driver.

I guess that’s true

Can you re-vote on the poll?
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:08 AM)6Jupiter5 Wrote:
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:07 AM)g2_ Wrote: Not Union.

Why not?
Union upper attack is too good making other attack beys got outclassed
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:22 AM)Needforspeed Wrote:
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:08 AM)6Jupiter5 Wrote: Why not?
Union upper attack is too good making other attack beys got outclassed

How about speed mode only I think that could work out?
You could probably include Grand and Rock if you were going to do this.

However, I am voting against since, while lacking weight on the layer increases burst risk, Gen weight sort of makes that back up plus a tiny bit more. I'm very skeptical of powercreep for Limited, which already has aH4, gF, and sA as potential issues (as well as potentially some more Rise layers). If you tested it in your region (since the format is unranked after all) and got good comparison data with the control group (TT God/Hasbro Evolution), I'd be more inclined.


That said, Erase has terrible stamina to the point were I think dF beats it, but I don't want it becoming Geist Fafnir 2.0 where its super defensive so who cares about same spin stamina.
If we are going to unban some get beys, then the get beys should be low tier. If we put high tier get beys unbanned than there will be no point in using evolution/Turbo beys anymore. My suggestion is if we are unbanning get beys we should unban some beys like.

Layers-Bushin Ashindra, Ace Dragon, Erase Devolos, Venom Devolos, heaven Pegasus, cosmo base, and possibly the slash base.
Chips-only decent chips like Fafnir, Bahamut, ashura, and dragon
Any other layers and chips would be completely to overpowered
(Aug. 28, 2020  12:32 AM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: If we are going to unban some get beys, then the get beys should be low tier. If we put high tier get beys unbanned than there will be no point in using evolution/Turbo beys anymore. My suggestion is if we are unbanning get beys we should unban some beys like.

Layers-Bushin Ashindra, Ace Dragon, Erase Devolos, Venom Devolos, heaven Pegasus, cosmo base, and possibly the slash base.
Chips-only decent chips like Fafnir, Bahamut, ashura, and dragon
Any other layers and chips would be completely to overpowered

Would you consider union speed mode?