Pretty much everyone seems to discredit Diablo as a viable Attacker compared to the others.

Blitz has been very well-proven to perform as well as VariAres, however... for quite a long time, in fact. It also doesn't suffer nearly as bad of age diminishing as Vari, and is easier to control.

You're saying that Blizt vs Vari --> Blitz wins ???
Youre saying that Blitz vs Duo ---> Blitz wins???

I don't know how you shoot and what kind of MG and matches you guys have, but in our MG Blitz is outclassed.
Also, that Blitz is easier to control is quite useless against the Beys of this MG. Personally, I prefer to lose a match because a miss a shoot, and then win the entire battle because I'm stronger.

I agree with Dan, RF is the best tip for Diablo.

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Melseth,il diavolo che si annida nel profondo della mia mente... mi spinge alla distruzione e alla pazzia...

My Plastics/HMSs/MFBs Collection! (updated on 5/28/2012)

You're saying that Blizt vs Vari --> Blitz wins ???
Youre saying that Blitz vs Duo ---> Blitz wins???

I don't know how you shoot and what kind of MG and matches you guys have, but in our MG Blitz is outclassed.
Also, that Blitz is easier to control is quite useless against the Beys of this MG. Personally, I prefer to lose a match because a miss a shoot, and then win the entire battle because I'm stronger.

I agree with Dan, RF is the best tip for Diablo.

1. He's not saying such claims. It is a simple general consensus that Blitz's performance is comparable to VariAres. Having said that, when Flash gets listed, I personally wouldn't mind seeing Blitz crossed off the list. Having 2 on the list is good enough. Imo, Blitz is a tiny bit shadowed under VariAres anyway.

2. 230 is a better track than TH170 for MF-H Duo __ __ MB

3. Yes, I agree that RF is the best bottom for Diablo, but even then, it still under-performs as an attacker compared to VariAres / Flash.

Blitz is definitely still a top tier wheel. To say otherwise is wrong, even if it doesn't perform as well in attack vs attack it is still a hugely potent wheel, and attack v attack is a rare situation in most metagames, as well as not being the main focus of attack types. Blitz outperforms Variares for a lot of people, and it is noticeably easier to control than Flash, and still records good winrates against most things. We've long agreed that it and Variares are "equal but different", and IMO if one goes, so does the other.

MF-H Duo TH170MB isn't top tier because it's directly outclassed by 230 in that one combination.

Dan's point about RF was for all types guys, which I agree with. It's not outspinning anything anyway, and it brings up it's chances against flash to slightly above 50/50 instead of something like 25-35% or whatever, IIRC.

And RF needs to go on defense with flash around, I can't stress that enough.


Modified version of my tier list based on uwik's comments that I agreed with, more input is needed because otherwise I am pretty biased towards my own opinion!

ATTACK

• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Flash Escolpio/Orion/Pisces 105/CH120/125/130/AD145/GB145/H145 RF/R2F/MF
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy VariAres CH120/R145 RF/R2F/LRF
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Blitz Unicorno II 100/CH120 RF/R2F
  

DEFENSE

• Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Kerbecs BD145/TH170 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS
  
• Metal Face-Heavy Death Aquario/Bull/Kerbecs BD145/TH170 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS
  
• Metal Face-Heavy Diablo Kerbecs/Unicorno II BD145 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS
  

STAMINA

• Phantom Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Cygnus 85/AD145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SD/SWD/WD
  
• Duo Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Cygnus 85/AD145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SD/SWD/WD
  

BALANCE

• Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus 230MB
  

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I strongly agree with the points about Blitz - it's got a credible tournament placement record, I personally love the wheel, and it's still effective. Personally, I'm not sure there's anything wrong with having three attack wheels up here - because there isn't.

I'm not really sure about the RF thing for Defense, though. Just feels kind of weird to see it up there, I guess.

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Some manner of Octopus.

It feels weird to put RF on defense, but it's really the only reliable method to counter a good Flash combo other than "hoping the opponent mislaunches". Things change and we have to be able to put aside tradition where it is no longer applicable/sensible. The idea that Defenders should be stationary is based on the observation that they usually are, rather than it actually being part of the definition - the point of Defense is to stay in the stadium against Attack Types and outspin them. How it does it is generally beside the point, that's a sub-category of Defense, not a different type.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

You're saying that Blizt vs Vari --> Blitz wins ???
Youre saying that Blitz vs Duo ---> Blitz wins???

I don't know how you shoot and what kind of MG and matches you guys have, but in our MG Blitz is outclassed.
Also, that Blitz is easier to control is quite useless against the Beys of this MG. Personally, I prefer to lose a match because a miss a shoot, and then win the entire battle because I'm stronger.

I agree with Dan, RF is the best tip for Diablo.

1. He's not saying such claims. It is a simple general consensus that Blitz's performance is comparable to VariAres. Having said that, when Flash gets listed, I personally wouldn't mind seeing Blitz crossed off the list. Having 2 on the list is good enough. Imo, Blitz is a tiny bit shadowed under VariAres anyway.

2. 230 is a better track than TH170 for MF-H Duo __ __ MB

3. Yes, I agree that RF is the best bottom for Diablo, but even then, it still under-performs as an attacker compared to VariAres / Flash.

But I stronlgy think that it's a claim if you say that Blitz's performance is comparable to VariAres. I agree with th!nk when he writes that if you say that Blitz isn't a Top Wheel is wrong, but at the same time you guys can't write that must stay in the list.

th!nk wrote that Attack vs Attack is not a common match, but maybe in your country... in our country is the opposite. Then, even if it's not common in your country, you really think that Blitz 100\CH120 RF has chances against a TH170 or a 230?
It's an authomatic match lost.
So why put it in the list if it's only comparable to Variares and against top defensive tracks it loose?

The second question I posted was a provocation, due to the fact that some months ago Cye was arguing with me that TH170 is always better than 230.
Well done, guys.

If Diablo under-performs against Flash and Vari, why do you think that Blitz should be better?
It isn't a provocation, would just understand your reasons, because with my experience I'm not able to find any difference!

To th!nk: it's strange because I think that Diablo is quite similar to Fang, but with more power.
We in Italy are almost agree about the fact that if you can hit your opponent during the first movements you win, otherwise you loose.
It dependes, if you're lucky, you're unlvky, if you have a good shoot, if you can predict your opponent's shoot, but the fact that has zero stamina in our opinion doesn't mean that it's not good.

Yeah, we in past used RF for defensive\spin stealer combos (for example: Gravity Perseus 90 RF in Left) and I think that th!nk isn't mad. What he says is good, expecially for Italian MG that is very aggressive, but at the same time i think that with a good shoot you can have the same results with RB... so I really don't know...

The Hazel point of view is correct for sure.. but not at all.
If you say that Blitz got a credible tournament place record, I'll trust you for sure; the problem is: in which kind of tournaments it won?
If you say me a tournament with 19 between Vari and Flash and 1 Blitz on 20 entrants, I'll say: that entrants aren't able to play Vari and Flash. You could think of me that I'm rude, but it's the thruth for me, because I compare your result to results we have in Italy were tournaments are played with all attack combos in general.
If you say me a tournament with a lot of defensive combos and a few attackers, I'll say: it's normal because attackers must be played to defeat defensive combos; so honor to the winner. But it doesn't mean anything because as I said in the precedent example, I'll say that Blitz is excellent only when it will be able to defeat serious attack combos with aggressive players!

As you can see mine and your point of view are quite different, but I think that my thought is credible; so please, explain me your point of view as better as you can, in this way I'll understand also what were you trying to say!

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Melseth,il diavolo che si annida nel profondo della mia mente... mi spinge alla distruzione e alla pazzia...

My Plastics/HMSs/MFBs Collection! (updated on 5/28/2012)

The only TH170 combo that gives MF-H Blitz Unicorno CH120R2F some trouble for me is MF-H Duo Aquario TH170RDF at a good height, and Variares does not really fare much better (in either spin), and BD145 performs better against them in both cases anyway. As for 230, it's quite easy to handle. It's certainly not an "automatic loss" by any means unless you're not launching right to be honest. 100RF maybe, but that one combination doesn't work against one specific example is no reason to remove a wheel. Against anything on TH170/230CS though, Blitz is reliable.

As for Attack Vs Attack being common in your country, that is fine and good, but Italy has a very unique metagame. This is well-documented. We cannot discount a wheel that is effective in every other metagame because such a niche meta.

TH170 is better than 230 in all cases for me, except that one combination because of how it works. For defense, it's definitely no competition, for stamina, there's a reason I didn't cross 230 off.

Diablo is also heavy as heck, which provides it with defensive ability, even on CS and so on. Look at the testing thread if you don't believe me. As for not being up for attack, it's pretty sluggish and it's winrates based on testing aren't the greatest ever. I'd not mind seeing it up there for sure, but it's certainly not better than Blitz in every metagame outside Italy. In an attack-focussed meta, yeah it's going to have an advantage because it has better defense - but for every other metagame, the defensive ability of an attack wheel is only important in terms of "not having too much recoil to survive it's impacts with opposing defense/stamina combinations", not "surviving attack combinations".

As for RB providing the same results as RF, that may be the case (I do not own RB), but RF still performs as well as the other tips in the list, no?

Again, you must remember that attack wheels aren't very common outside your local meta. However blitz performed well in tournaments mainly consisting of defense and stamina, which are the things Attack wheels want to beat and automatically beat respectively.

You really need to stop basing everything on your own metagame, Galaxy. It's nice to have the input but basing everything on a metagame that is hugely different to everywhere else just isn't relevant.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

The only TH170 combo that gives MF-H Blitz Unicorno CH120R2F some trouble for me is MF-H Duo Aquario TH170RDF at a good height, and Variares does not really fare much better (in either spin), and BD145 performs better against them in both cases anyway. As for 230, it's quite easy to handle. It's certainly not an "automatic loss" by any means unless you're not launching right to be honest. 100RF maybe, but that one combination doesn't work against one specific example is no reason to remove a wheel. Against anything on TH170/230CS though, Blitz is reliable.

As for Attack Vs Attack being common in your country, that is fine and good, but Italy has a very unique metagame. This is well-documented. We cannot discount a wheel that is effective in every other metagame because such a niche meta.

TH170 is better than 230 in all cases for me, except that one combination because of how it works. For defense, it's definitely no competition, for stamina, there's a reason I didn't cross 230 off.

Diablo is also heavy as heck, which provides it with defensive ability, even on CS and so on. Look at the testing thread if you don't believe me. As for not being up for attack, it's pretty sluggish and it's winrates based on testing aren't the greatest ever. I'd not mind seeing it up there for sure, but it's certainly not better than Blitz in every metagame outside Italy. In an attack-focussed meta, yeah it's going to have an advantage because it has better defense - but for every other metagame, the defensive ability of an attack wheel is only important in terms of "not having too much recoil to survive it's impacts with opposing defense/stamina combinations", not "surviving attack combinations".

As for RB providing the same results as RF, that may be the case (I do not own RB), but RF still performs as well as the other tips in the list, no?

Again, you must remember that attack wheels aren't very common outside your local meta. However blitz performed well in tournaments mainly consisting of defense and stamina, which are the things Attack wheels want to beat and automatically beat respectively.

You really need to stop basing everything on your own metagame, Galaxy. It's nice to have the input but basing everything on a metagame that is hugely different to everywhere else just isn't relevant.

Wait th!nk, I'm not basing all on our own metagame. I'm giving you inputs.
Why I'm doing this?
Because reading here sometimes I feel that maybe matches aren't tested objectivly; and, be careful, I'm not insinuating that you choose your Tier List as you want without tests. What I'm trying to say that a Wheel should be observed under all point of view, and what I often try to explain with my posts is that maybe you, guys, can take inputs by Italian MG that is more aggressive than others to see what a Wheel can do under certain conditions, different from yours.
If Blitz, for example win in a tournament full of stamina and defensive combos, is true for sure; but why don't you think also other situations? Because it doesn't happen in your countries. And this is a good reason? I don't think so, sorry.
Kai-V gave me the access to this section for let me talk about differences between us and you.
Why I should say always: "yes, your Tier list is beautiful, excellent.." and so on? Can I say me opinion?
If you confirm that Blitz win against stamina and defensive combos in your tournament and this is the reason that allow you to put it in the list, I think: but aren't they forgetting something?

An international Tier list should be objective in my opinion, and it's not good to think only at the majority of the metagame nor our niche MG. I think that should be a fusion of all these things, and maybe with some explenations closest to combos in list. In this way the list will be more correct and objective.

But if you don't like it, I'll go away. There's no point to write where you guys think that I write useless things. It seems that my suggestion aren't appreciated.
I'm not trying to persuade you with our MG, I'm only trying to give you other point of view, that be arguable for an international MG, but still remain true even if we're only one community in one different country.

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Melseth,il diavolo che si annida nel profondo della mia mente... mi spinge alla distruzione e alla pazzia...

My Plastics/HMSs/MFBs Collection! (updated on 5/28/2012)

Don't take such offense, input from your metagame is still valuable, you just have to understand that a wheel that is great in all conditions but those that are almost entirely unique to your metagame cannot be removed from the international tier list because of that, as everywhere else it is still "top-tier" worthy.

The thing is, though, the majority/overall is what must be observed, this list caters to the most common metagames, as most metagames are similar. Your metagame is different and very unique, and as such cannot be weighted as heavily as the others, as it would have effects based on things that aren't relevant to other metagames.

You're very welcome to state your opinion based on your metagame, sorry if my post came accross any other way, but yeah, you must understand that we can't alter things so drastically for the international tier list if they're only observed in a single metagame - for that, you should use a more localised tier list (if I recall correctly, you have one already?)

I hope this is understandable

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Don't take such offense, input from your metagame is still valuable, you just have to understand that a wheel that is great in all conditions but those that are almost entirely unique to your metagame cannot be removed from the international tier list because of that, as everywhere else it is still "top-tier" worthy.

The thing is, though, the majority/overall is what must be observed, this list caters to the most common metagames, as most metagames are similar. Your metagame is different and very unique, and as such cannot be weighted as heavily as the others, as it would have effects based on things that aren't relevant to other metagames.

You're very welcome to state your opinion based on your metagame, sorry if my post came accross any other way, but yeah, you must understand that we can't alter things so drastically for the international tier list if they're only observed in a single metagame - for that, you should use a more localised tier list (if I recall correctly, you have one already?)

I hope this is understandable

Don't worry, I know you're a good person!

Maybe sometimes I'm not good to explain my ideas because our different languages; and maybe yes, is too drastic to say "Blitz should be erased" if our MGs are so different.

Mainly, I don't understand how you can compare Vari or Flash to Blitz. The problem I was trying to put in evidence is that if I have a Wheel that's better than Blitz, we think: "ok, Blitz is outclassed". But now, I've understood that it's very different for you, because your tournaments have really different combos from ours.

Maybe yes, I can just update our MG in this section, in this way you'll be able to see how we play, and take inputs or think different!

Thanks for letting me understand this!

By the way, talking about RF for defense and RB... I think as I said that RB can be a good choice or even better if you think for pure defensive combos; maybe, RF gives too much speed even if you use a defensive shot technique!

The fact that gives you credibility is that with an RF you can absorb better the impacts due to its flat shape that causes movements and not be hit passively how RB does due to its rounded shape.
I really don't know... I think it depends on what you prefer. The only thing I can say that your idea is correct, because also in Italy we tested it and talked about it more than one year ago more or less, and it worked good when RB didn't exist!

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Melseth,il diavolo che si annida nel profondo della mia mente... mi spinge alla distruzione e alla pazzia...

My Plastics/HMSs/MFBs Collection! (updated on 5/28/2012)

Yeah, the reason we compare variares and blitz, and consider them "equal" is that against what they generally face in most metagames, they do perform equally. Variares also seems to suffer consistency issues, certain variares wheels just don't work well at all, whereas Blitz is pretty consistent for everyone.

Honestly, neither of them are really as good as Flash based on tests (and IIRC it's 50/50 either way in attack v attack vs flash with anything), and I wouldn't be totally against removing BOTH, but I think they're both still "competitive", and thus can stay up.

Speed can be good or bad, if you're going fast enough that you can hit the attacker from behind it can be really good for you, though the flip side is the attacker hitting you from behind and pushing you out.

And yeah, RB was supposed to have issues with skipping over the tornado ridge for some people, whereas RF catches it really nicely.

Anyway, RF will still out-defend anything short of RB any day, really, so that should be the basis for its inclusion!

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Guys come on, more thoughts on this please (sorry for double posting again, but no one else is posting soooo). Is it good to go? Any disagreements?

Modified version of my tier list based on uwik's comments that I agreed with, more input is needed because otherwise I am pretty biased towards my own opinion!

ATTACK

• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Flash Escolpio/Orion/Pisces 105/CH120/125/130/AD145/GB145/H145 RF/R2F/MF
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy VariAres CH120/R145 RF/R2F/LRF
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Blitz Unicorno II 100/CH120 RF/R2F
  

DEFENSE

• Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Kerbecs BD145/TH170 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS
  
• Metal Face-Heavy Death Aquario/Bull/Kerbecs BD145/TH170 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS
  
• Metal Face-Heavy Diablo Kerbecs/Unicorno II BD145 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS
  

STAMINA

• Phantom Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Cygnus 85/AD145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SD/SWD/WD
  
• Duo Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Cygnus 85/AD145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SD/SWD/WD
  

BALANCE

• Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus 230MB
  

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I really think you've gotten all the thoughts people have, haha.

I've updated you on my limitations with these contributions, but from the tests I've seen (basically all of them), I have no disagreements. I can only speak from other's test results though. I would just like an explanation for all the Bottoms on Diablo, besides RF, because RF is the only one I remember being discussed as good, and even then there was debate! Haha

It's just the standard defense tip lineup, basically. BD145RS is, I guess, questionable, but without being as badly imbalanced as basalt (though Diablo does have appalling stamina), it's not really that scrape-prone and has still done well in testing on other wheels, though I haven't seen much testing of it or RB on diablo, as relatively few people test with either of the two tips.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Ah, well I only asked because it seemed like it needed movement to perform its best, so RS is definitely what got me!

Kei r u there bro?



Considering no one spoke out against the list Alex composed, I think it is safe to say we agree on it.. It has been more than 2 weeks and you've had time to resharpen your bey-sword of knowledge and give input. (and update the list, yeah?)


i look up to u plz respand quikly bro

4 gud of us al.

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shout out 2 kai-v 2.

The Complete Competitive HMS Resource

th!nk's list looks good to me.

Welp, we've blown the breather space we had before zero g was legalised.

Honestly, I give up.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

OK, Arupaeo is fine with it, you are fine with it, Uwik is too ? I am going to use veto here.

I am also fine with it.

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Some manner of Octopus.

The list looks fine.

I already made the changes, yo.

OK, Arupaeo is fine with it, you are fine with it, Uwik is too ? I am going to use veto here.

I cannot express how glad I am that you're here. Thankyou.

Anyway, back to business!

Those of you with Zero G Parts, I know Saramanda Saramanda is a defensive wall, but what of other heavy Synchrom combos (mainly Ifraid Ifraid, Saramanda Ifraid and Ifraid Saramanda)? I'm guessing Metal Stone Face (MSF) will be prefixed onto all of these combinations, too.

Trackwise, from what I've seen E230 is a shoe-in, though I really want to see some testing on Diablo, to see whether it makes any difference to the terrible defense of its underside. I'm guessing no one has found an interesting use for W145 seeing as it doesn't even have its own thread.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Wow, an entire month.

Nice one. I think we'll break a record soon! Anyway, what are your thoughts on Revizer, guys? Seems pretty solid.
So does E230.. Perhaps too solid.

Yeah so someone hackysack with me as usual.

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shout out 2 kai-v 2.

The Complete Competitive HMS Resource

Well, as you can see I'm about as good as Competitive Combo hackysack as I am at actual hackysack, but I think now that there's no risk of double posting I can get listing a few things.

Obvious stuff:

Revizer Revizer - Defense. Now. Everything defense, whack it on, but MSF instead of MF-H
E230 - Defense. Everything. Now.

Less obvious stuff:
Other Sychroms: Seeing as revizer revizer beats them all for defense, I'm tempted to leave them off, but then, don't a number do better on a pure defense basis than our other defense options (minus their appalling stamina)?
E230 on stamina: does nothing like BD145EDS happen for it? I honestly haven't checked as between this and revizer revizer it's not fun to watch.

Stuff we've discussed before but yeah:

Diablo on Attack (again): It's becoming really popular in a few places. Would like Galaxy, Yamislayer, and Uwik's point of views in particular here.

Left Spin stuff, LDD/LDG, especially given the effect they have on things like E230, we should at least keep an eye on it.



Thanks to Zero G's "MORE WEIGHT LESS BALANCE" thing, defense might get a little crowded...

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List