Hazel

Octorok Shmoctorok!

(This post was last modified: Jan 23 2012 09:05 AM by Hazel.)

Is the weight dependency large enough that it might hinder placement in Stamina?

Arupaeo

Back in Flaxen

Yes, but only as far as whether it sits above Phantom or below it. Duo is definitely top tier stamina in my book.

th!nk

~Burning Bright~

(This post was last modified: Jan 23 2012 09:19 AM by th!nk.)

Yeah, exactly, it outspins everything that isn't Phantom-of-the-Krispy-Kreme.

Death should probably go up for stamina too, though I don't know if enough testing has been done. It did better against phantom than my Duo (didn't do too great, though), but then lost in direct battle with Duo. I suspect this is largely because it has a similar grinding ability to basalt. I haven't seen tests of it against scythe, though, which may be a dealbreaker.

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Dan

zain r u there bro?

(This post was last modified: Jan 26 2012 03:17 AM by Dan.)

If it ends up that Duo, Death and Phantom spin circles around Scythe would there be a point in leaving it on the list?

It would really just end up being like Beat is for Attack.
This is completely hypothetical of course, but I think that may end up happening.

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Uwik

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I agree that Duo should be up for Defense and Stamina, and perhaps Scythe be retired from the list. But I strongly disagree having Death for stamina. Could someone kindly point me towards the stamina tests done for this?

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Hazel

Octorok Shmoctorok!

I don't recall a suitable amount of Stamina testing being done for Death, either - it always seemed like a low-rent Basalt, though.

Uwik

ファイトクラブ

A couple basic stamina tests found in the Death Discussion thread.
CS Tests 1
CS Tests 2
WD Tests 1
WD Tests 2

Then we have this ...
Stamina but with different parts

I think it's more important for the time being to focus on having Duo for Stamina & Defense.

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th!nk

~Burning Bright~

(This post was last modified: Jan 26 2012 11:17 AM by th!nk.)

I don't think there is anything more to say about Duo, though, other than we need to add it for both stamina and defense, and we all agree on that.
Oh, and plopping MF-H Duo Aquario TH170RDF onto balance would be a good idea too, it's a very good combination (IMO the most versatile Duo combination of all, able to outspin BD145CS combos, and still stand up to attacks quite reliably), though I don't know if there's enough testing to put it there of its own accord just yet.

Scythe can stay, I still think it is suitably "competitive". Frankly, I'd even consider adding MF-H Scythe Kronos BD145RS to defense. It's got a lot of synergy, one of the rare times I would not worry about using RS on BD145, given it shuts down MF-F Phantom (ATK) Cancer AD145RF, desite that combination outspinning Basalt BD145CS.

As for death, I really do think it can hold its own in the stamina list. I guess it could use more testing, but it holds up quite nicely against everything on the list, often being close enough that having a stronger launch could net you a win over a "better" stamina type.

@Hazel: I'd use Death over Basalt for stamina any day. That said, I never liked basalt for stamina...

(Jan 26 2012 05:15 AM)Uwik Wrote:  A couple basic stamina tests found in the Death Discussion thread.
CS Tests 1
CS Tests 2
WD Tests 1
WD Tests 2

Then we have this ...
Stamina but with different parts

I think it's more important for the time being to focus on having Duo for Stamina & Defense.

Just some response to those testings:
1/2. Duo shuts down most things, and CS is not a suitable tip for stamina assessment, due to the variability in performance.
3. Check the comparative tests with my Duo vs Phantom.
4. Those are quite close.

5. Those aren't valid given they all use different combinations.

What I really want to see is death vs scythe. If death outperforms scythe, we could consider replacing one with the other, though IMO scythe is still competitive.



As far as I see it, we've agreed on the following: MF-H on attackers, Duo for Stamina/Defense
Still Needs Discussion: RB, Diablo, Duo for Balance, Death for stamina, Scythe for stamina, Scythe for Defense, LRF on Blitz.

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Kei

the battle BEYond

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MF-H has been added to the ATTACK combinations, and Duo to DEFENSE and STAMINA.

How do you guys feel about EWD for Stamina? Hazel mentioned it a while ago. Personally, I've never been able to determine if it's actually worse than WD or not.

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th!nk

~Burning Bright~

Yay!

EWD is a perfectly reasonable addition in my opinion, though it's a shame (for its sake) that left spin combinations aren't so popular right now, as from what I've seen, it takes hits from left spin opponents better than WD. I prefer it to SD, and all the testing I saw and everything I tried generally had it being equal to WD anyway, when opposite spin directions weren't a factor.

It's definitely more "competitively viable" than RSF anyway, and based on that alone, I think it deserves a spot.

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Hazel

Octorok Shmoctorok!

I could never really see a noticable difference - in other people's tests and my own - with EWD, as it always came down to what was shot first. I didn't do any impact resistance testing, though, because... well, pretty much any attack combo should be able to KO both WD and EWD customs just dandy.

th!nk

~Burning Bright~

It seemed slightly easier to KO against same spin opponents, but that never affected it's Winrate, so it may have well been imaginary. And as I said, it did slightly better against opposite spin in terms of defence, including weak launching, so I think that's a very fair trade, even if left spin is uncommon.

I was always disappointed by how it and w2d were overlooked. Maybe there was justification for w2d that I never saw, but at the very least, it's again more viable than rsf IMO. Would be interested in others thoughts, albeit only if they've used it themselves, or at least can drag up some solid testing to sufficiently make me look stupid for saying this.

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Dan

zain r u there bro?

Any reason Cancer isn't in the Stamina CW section? It may just be me but it is really good for Stamina/Defense. Great distribution, design and all.

I can't be the only one who feels that, right..?

lol

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th!nk

~Burning Bright~

(Feb 05 2012 01:06 AM)Dan Wrote:  Any reason Cancer isn't in the Stamina CW section? It may just be me but it is really good for Stamina/Defense. Great distribution, design and all.

I can't be the only one who feels that, right..?

lol

I'm pretty sure we all agreed on that, too, it just isn't up there? Or did I miss something?

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Kei

the battle BEYond

BeyRank: #3 (1,358)

(This post was last modified: Feb 05 2012 07:41 PM by Kei.)

Added EWD and Cancer for the STAMINA customizations. Do you guys think Cancer should be on Defense as well? We already have Bull, Kerbecs, and Aquario up there–all of which are heavier–so perhaps not?

(Jan 29 2012 01:31 PM)th!nk Wrote:  It seemed slightly easier to KO against same spin opponents, but that never affected it's Winrate, so it may have well been imaginary. And as I said, it did slightly better against opposite spin in terms of defence, including weak launching, so I think that's a very fair trade, even if left spin is uncommon.

I was always disappointed by how it and w2d were overlooked. Maybe there was justification for w2d that I never saw, but at the very least, it's again more viable than rsf IMO. Would be interested in others thoughts, albeit only if they've used it themselves, or at least can drag up some solid testing to sufficiently make me look stupid for saying this.

Are you speaking from your experience in general with the part, or from actual testing that's been posted somewhere? I can't see why it would be worse/better depending on what spin direction it was playing against ...

I don't have any real opinion of W2D because I tested it for Stamina right when I got it and never looked at it again, but do you really think the shape of W2D would trump the rubber/grip of RSF?

edit: Also, it probably would not be a good idea to use W2D on BD145!

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Arupaeo

Back in Flaxen

(This post was last modified: Feb 05 2012 09:13 PM by Arupaeo.)

Cancer is almost as heavy as Bull and Aquario (0.1g less) so if folks are interested in putting it on the defense list I wouldn't be too put off seeing it alongside those two as being in roughly the same weight class.

th!nk

~Burning Bright~

I have no objections to putting it in the defense list. I've always found good weight distribution to be more important than tiny amounts of extra weight, and Cancer is very nicely distributed.

Dan seemed pretty enthusiastic about it to, so I definitely think it deserves to go up.

Oh, and for when we get around to Diablo, I'm going to suggest Unicorno II as well as Kerbecs for the Clear Wheels. Unicorno II is only slightly lighter and much more evenly distributed.

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Hazel

Octorok Shmoctorok!

Exactly what are we going to get around to with Diablo, anyway? As I recall, the consensus is so far pointing to an Attack/Defense hybrid wheel as opposed to the usual Defense/Stamina? Higher recoil, higher counter-smash?

Does it have a good enough presence to be on this list?

th!nk

~Burning Bright~

I don't know about presence, but yeah, the obscene weight it has means it can get away with being good at both Attack and Defense.

That said, I don't know if it's quite worthy of Attack top-tier status, unless we need a third wheel for that, in which case it's a pretty good pick.

For defense, I certainly think it deserves a spot. 70 gram combinations, guys.

It's certainly been overlooked by a lot of people because it hasn't truly outdone Duo or Variares (though it does very close to both), and it doesn't have impressive stamina. Honestly though, it seems to be hugely underrated for what it is.

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Hazel

Octorok Shmoctorok!

Oh yeah, I can totally appreciate the new perspective, too - Defense/Attack Hybrid basically suits my tastes pretty well(even if I do think the thing is hideous). It'll bring a lot more use to the underrated Aggressive CS, as well! I just wasn't clear on exactly how well suited it was for this thread - the testing thread had a lot of discussion back and forth about the overall viability, so I suppose I was seeking a clear-cut answer.