World Beyblade Organization

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I'm actually pretty surprised you didn't have success with Gemios! That thing has insane upper attack! The little weight different should effect too much.

(Jun. 03, 2016 8:35 PM)Mitsu Wrote: [ -> ]I'm actually pretty surprised you didn't have success with Gemios! That thing has insane upper attack! The little weight different should effect too much.

Agreed - revealing those contact points is much more important for Vulcan than the extra weight from a bigger CW.

Vulcan is a bit of an oddball, though; the way it's lined up limits your CW choices to a handful of unusual choices. If Gemios isn't working for you, try Uranus, Pisces, Horuseus, or Byxis.

I'm developing a combo: Bakushin Elscopio 85RF. It's a limited anti-attacker. I will be making a thread soon so feel free to post results and PM me them.

It's been far too long since the top-tier list was updated, seriously... Libra and Omega are still on there lol

Here's my proposed revision, assuming Dark Knight is banned and Gravity is unbanned:
(additions are blue and removals are red)

Limited Top Tier List Wrote:
Attack

REMOVED OMEGA

Pegasis

MF-H Pegasis (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB)

Lightning

MF-H Lightning L-Drago [Upper] (85/90/CH120/R145/TR145) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB)

Wyvang
MSF-H (Shinobi/Gladiator) Wyvang [Crystal-Up] R145 (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB) Removed Dark Knight
MSF-H Samurai Wyvang [Crystal-Up] R145 (RSF/RB)

REMOVED DARK KNIGHT

Gravity

MF-H Gravity Perseus (S130/CH120/R145/TR145) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB)

Vulcan
MF-H Vulcan (Byxis/Pisces/Uranus/Horuseus) (85/90/CH120) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB)

Defense

Earth
MF-H Earth (Aquario/Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (85/90/R145/GB145/TH170/230) (RSF/RB)

REMOVED LIBRA

Scythe (Metal Fury)
MF-H Scythe (Aquario/Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (R145/GB145) (RSF/RB)

Bakushin
MF-H Bakushin Leone (85/90) (RSF/RB) Removed RF

Jade (4D / Hyperblades?)
MF-H Jade (Pisces/Horogium/Cygnus/Uranus) (85/90) (RSF/RB)

Stamina

Burn
Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B:D
Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 85 (WD/EWD)

Earth
Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B:D
Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 85 (WD/EWD)
Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD)

Scythe (Metal Fury)
Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B:D
Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD)

Duo (Metal Fury)
Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B:D
Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD)
Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 230 MB

Meteo
Meteo L-Drago (TR145/ED145/CH120/S130) (EWD/CF/GCF/GF)

Balance

{MF-H} (Scythe/Earth) (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/SR200/230) CS
Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (85/90) MF
MF-H Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) CH120 RF
Meteo L-Drago F230 (CF/GCF)
(Duo/Scythe) (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) F230 (CF/GCF)
Gravity Perseus F230 (CF/GCF)
Gravity Perseus (S130/CH120/TR145/ED145) (CF/GCF/GF)

Vulcan Attack, Jade Defense, and RSF/RB Attack are definitely good enough to be top-tier, IMO (with Jade being the strongest candidate; from my experience it's stronger than any other defensive option out there by a wide margin). Also for consideration in the absence of Dark Knight are Quetzalcoatl, Cosmic, and possibly Screw and Jade (again) for Attack.

I'm on board with the edits.

One thing we could maybe talk about a bit more is Gemios on stationary combos. The thing has crazy good upper attack and can put a stop to HTSCs quite consistently. Things like Scythe Gemios B:D have been used quite a bit in Toronto. 1234beyblade probably has the most experience with them. How do you feel about it?

Will post some more of my thoughts on Gravity later today. :)

I know we are all about unbanning Gravity... and in my heart I would like it to be unbanned...

But it really shouldn't be unbanned...

I was a proponent for it's banning in the beginnings of Limited and with good reason. Gravity is just way too versatile. It has: both spin rotations (but you could probably just spam it in left spin and win vs everything since right spin is so weak atm), a ton of smash due to plastic on metal contact with very little recoil (the very problem DK/Lightning has), an extremely low bowl shape with a deep set connection point (most tracks sink deep into it giving it ideal height and center of gravity), and insane reach because of it's overall height. It'd be crazy to add something infinitely stronger than the thing we are proposing to ban (which I am not really a fan of that decision as well)...

Gravity can be used in every situation, with any setup... literally. Spin Equalizing, Attack, Defense, Stamina, Balance. Whatever you want. And it's the safest option being able to spin in both directions. Why does this format want that? Is that healthy for the format?

I know I don't really have much say in where the format will go and I don't really have the answers to make the format better, but I definitely think that Gravity isn't what we need... But maybe I'm just indifferent to the Format's current direction and how swiftly we ban things. When you ban something of power (especially in a fragile Format like this one), something else will come into power. When will we stop banning?

Also, I'm not sure about Vulcan and that list. IIRC, Thief Phoenic, Beat, and a lot of other options have much more testing and are more worthy of being on that list than Vulcan.

(Aug. 04, 2016 9:28 PM)Mitsu Wrote: [ -> ]I'm on board with the edits.

One thing we could maybe talk about a bit more is Gemios on stationary combos. The thing has crazy good upper attack and can put a stop to HTSCs quite consistently. Things like Scythe Gemios B have been used quite a bit in Toronto. 1234beyblade probably has the most experience with them. How do you feel about it?

Will post some more of my thoughts on Gravity later today.

I definitely use Escolpio a lot for the same reasons, so I would be on board for adding aggressive CWs to non-Attack combos.

(Aug. 04, 2016 10:05 PM)juncction Wrote: [ -> ]I know we are all about unbanning Gravity... and in my heart I would like it to be unbanned...

But it really shouldn't be unbanned...

I was a proponent for it's banning in the beginnings of Limited and with good reason. Gravity is just way too versatile. It has: both spin rotations (but you could probably just spam it in left spin and win vs everything since right spin is so weak atm), a ton of smash due to plastic on metal contact with very little recoil (the very problem DK/Lightning has), an extremely low bowl shape with a deep set connection point (most tracks sink deep into it giving it ideal height and center of gravity), and insane reach because of it's overall height. It'd be crazy to add something infinitely stronger than the thing we are proposing to ban (which I am not really a fan of that decision as well)...

Gravity can be used in every situation, with any setup... literally. Spin Equalizing, Attack, Defense, whatever you want. And it's the safest option being able to spin in both directions. Why does this format want that? Is that healthy for the format?

I know I don't really have much say in where the format will go and I don't really have the answers to make the format better, but I definitely think that Gravity isn't what we need... But maybe I'm just indifferent to the Format's current direction and how swiftly we ban things. When you ban something of power (especially in a fragile Format like this one), something else will come into power. When will we stop banning?

Also, I'm not sure about Vulcan and that list. IIRC, Thief Phoenic, Beat, and a lot of other options have much more testing and are more worthy of being on that list than Vulcan.

I was initially uneasy about unbanning Gravity, and I still am, but following a long session of testing and playing around with different combos, it just didn't seem as threatening as it used to be, or even as dangerous as Dark Knight. I think it's because of the shift (mostly caused by pressure from Dark Knight) to extremely low and extremely tall combos; Gravity really seems to struggle with LTDC from what I've tried, and was not sufficiently effective at OSing LTDC (or anything else, really) via spin steal to be frightening. My main concern (unless further testing, which I will definitely be doing, reveals something worrisome) is that people will immediately flock to Gravity because of its reputation and ignore all the other viable choices.

Pretty sure Screw is noticeably better than Vulcan. Whether Vulcan should even be on the list at all is up for debate, but if it goes on, Screw LTAC should be a shoo-in.

Here, I'll throw some tests at the problem (credit to th!nk of course):

(Mar. 04, 2014 9:15 AM)th!nk Wrote: [ -> ]MF-H Vulcan (Mold 1) Giraffe 90RF vs MF-H Libra 90RS
Mold 1 Vulcan: 17/30 = 56.67% (All KO)
Libra: 13/30 = 43.33% (10KO, 3OS)

MF-H Vulcan (Mold 2) Giraffe 90RF vs MF-H Libra 90RS
Mold 2 Vulcan: 16/30 = 53.33% (All KO)
Libra: 14/30 = 46.67% (5KO, 9OS)

MF-H Vulcan (Mold 1) Giraffe 90RF vs MF-H Libra R145RS
Vulcan (Mold 1): 11/20 = 55% (All KO)
Libra: 9/20 = 45% (5KO, 4OS)

MF-H Vulcan (Mold 2) Giraffe 90RF vs MF-H Libra R145RS
Vulcan (Mold 2): 15/20 = 75% (All KO)
Libra: 5/20 = 25% (4KO, 1OS)

MF-H Screw Pisces 90RF vs MF-H Libra R145RS
Screw: 16/20 = 80% (All KO)
Libra: 4/20 = 20% (3KO, 1OS)

MF-H Screw Pisces 90RF vs MF-H Libra 90RS
Screw: 15/20 = 75% (All KO)
Libra: 5/20 =25 % (All OS)

(Source post.)

I understand Libra is banned, but surely it can still be used for comparing Attack types.
(Side note: would anyone be opposed to adding Giraffe to the Vulcan CW list? Hah.)

(Aug. 04, 2016 10:06 PM)Cake Wrote: [ -> ]My main concern (unless further testing, which I will definitely be doing, reveals something worrisome) is that people will immediately flock to Gravity because of its reputation and ignore all the other viable choices.

Pretty much guaranteed to happen.

I've always found Screw to be rather ineffective outside of a small range of matchups where it's Upper Attack shines, while Vulcan has excellent Upper Attack as well as Smash Attack. I'll try out Screw some more, though. The version of the top-tier list I posted is by no means final, haha, I just put up what I've found to be exceptionally effective.

(Aug. 04, 2016 10:06 PM)Cake Wrote: [ -> ]I was initially uneasy about unbanning Gravity, and I still am, but following a long session of testing and playing around with different combos, it just didn't seem as threatening as it used to be, or even as dangerous as Dark Knight. I think it's because of the shift (mostly caused by pressure from Dark Knight) to extremely low and extremely tall combos; Gravity really seems to struggle with LTDC from what I've tried, and was not sufficiently effective at OSing LTDC (or anything else, really) via spin steal to be frightening. My main concern (unless further testing, which I will definitely be doing, reveals something worrisome) is that people will immediately flock to Gravity because of its reputation and ignore all the other viable choices.

I think that's the very problem though. Limited is supposed to be a format that promotes creativity (among a lot of other things). Unfortunately, "flavor of the month" is a very prevalent thing. I think, it's easy to mistake "flavor of the month" with "ban-worthy."

However, I think the decision for me is very clear for Gravity. Regardless of if it excels with one field or the other, or if it beats the best or doesn't, if you can slap that wheel on every possible imaginable setup and have above average success with it... then it is something that shouldn't exist in this format. Stamina Gravity SW145EWD? Sure. Defense Gravity GB145RS? Sure. LTAC Gravity? Sure. I know it might not excel at every single one combo to 100% capacity... but it should be VERY alarming that this one part can be used on so many different viable setups.. don't you think?

Nocto Wrote:First, I think the nature of Limited lends itself well to experimentation. While there are decisions that may benefit from longer deliberation, I think there could be an argument in the case of Limited for a more organic approach: notice a trend; deal with it; analyze the repercussion; deal with them consequently (proceed forward or take a step back).

That being said, since you're also considering reintroducing a part--a versatile part--it would be interesting to see tests pitting same and opposite-spin Gravity against Dark Knight, to see if that renders Dark Knight a much less safer option. I've read the last three pages of the discussion thread, and most discussion involving the two pertain to how they individually compare to other parts; I've noticed only one instance where they are compared to how they play against each other.

Sorry I grabbed this from the Mentor Circle because I couldn't post there, but... [Link]

I think that currently there's a single track mind in Limited of "stepping forward" and banning to get rid of the "problems" that we have. I know that we have gone a long way from where we started. While banning does solve some issues, it's only temporary. I have said before that banning does lead to other parts becoming "too powerful." It's just how any competitive game fundamentally works. Banning Omega was a definite necessity because it did completely shut out every other option and that was bad for the format, but the banning of Libra is somewhat questionable to me. "Stepping back" and unbanning certain things might prove to be more beneficial or exciting and possibly open up the format to more creativity.

Libra kept DK in check. I know it was quite bad for the format because it shut out a lot of other options... but what if we unbanned Libra, Hell, and Gravity in one go? How would DK or Libra fare? Would Hell or Gravity keep things in check? I know we all dream of a Vulcan or Screw world, but sometimes it's really not possible without being overly stifling and being ban-heavy. I think it be more interesting to see how the game could have progressed if we had a more fluid and organic system of banning and unbanning. Stepping forwards and stepping backwards. Reflecting and assessing.

I just have a few adjustments I want to make to that list, mainly just a few small nitpicks about part choice and a few Balance customs you left out.

Tier List thoughts (Click to View)

Why exactly are those Wyvang Attack combos separated? I would also add Bandid to the choices of Crystal Wheels (I know at least a few Canadians will back me up here) and H145 to Spin Tracks. During AN16, MSF-H Bandid Wyvang (Crystal Up) H145RSF was the closest thing I had to a "carry" in the Limited event, going 3-0.
For Scythe Defense, I would add TH170 and 230.
Probably in the minority here, but I still think CS is viable for Defense setups. I find it more difficult to KO than RB or my harder RSF.
I would add MF-L to all the Stamina setups. Don't know if it's just a placebo, but I always get better results when using MF-L on my Stamina combos than with a normal Face.
MB should probably go on the tall Earth setup. Though you should only weak launch it against opposite spin attackers.
Would anyone else be down for adding ED145, TR145, and SW145 to the 145 height Stamina as well? ED145 and TR145 are commonly used to increase LAD on Meteo, and I don't know why they were never used on the other Stamina types. I can't really think of any downside to "more LAD and weight and also a small defense boost vs LTAC". Thunder Dome's thread showed that SW145 outperformed W145, and I know several people have had success with it since then (the only example that comes to mind ATM is pyrus10000 using a SW145 Stamina combo to win 2spoopy4beys, but I'm sure there are others).
I was going to point out S130 earlier, but I see you've added it. I think that the CF and GCF setups are a little more Balancey than pure Stamina however.
MF-L Scythe Escolpio/Pegasis II/Gemios/Hades/Cygnus/Cancer W105/LW105/DF105/90? MF definitely needs to be added to Balance.
MF(-L/H) Flame Cancer/Cygnus/Hades 230/TH170CS/MB needs to be added to Balance.
Some other combos should be added to Balance too but I can't remember them right now lol. (Not the DK Staller because that's "banned" on this list)
Clear Wheels: th!nk found that Pegasis II had better synergy with Scythe than Cancer/Cygnus/Hades and that Sagittario II was the same for Earth. I know that recently people have been questioning his word but FWIW my Sagittario II consistently beats my Cancer in an Earth mirror match as well as also covering up Earth's main recoil points (the steppes on top). For the Gravity Attack combo the Attack Perseus should be specified, as well as the Stamina version for F230GCF. Not too sure about Gravity S130 since if it's anything like Meteo it should have a decent amount of Attack.

Random stuff I want added but won't make the cut due to lack of testing/tournament support (Click to View)

As for controversy over Attack Type Wheels, I want people to keep in mind that as weird as it sounds, people get different results for different Wheels. This is not supposed to be a sarcastic statement. For some unexplainable reason, people tend to have preferences for Attack (or any combo) based on what "works" for them even if they are using the exact same combos. For example, I don't find Gravity particularly impressive for Attack despite others saying it is at least Lightning-Tier. I prefer Quetzalcoatl or Screw as I get better results with them, while Vulcan appears to work better than Screw for Cake. Some people think Pegasis is amazing but for me it's frustratingly inconsistent even on a proper Smash Attack setup. Over the course of the Limited Tier List history people have long argued the viability of Hasbro Beat, Cosmic, and Phoenic. Until fairly recently the majority of players preferred Lightning L-Drago over Dark Knight. Obviously, there are going to be a few candidates that always rise to the top, but determining "the best of the best" is difficult when user experiences with parts vary so much. Discrepancies like this were what I suspect kept Pegasis off the Top Tier list in favor of Storm during the early days of MFB (along with the fact that people were putting Pegasis on 90).

(Aug. 04, 2016 11:05 PM)juncction Wrote: [ -> ]
Long quote (Click to View)

(Aug. 04, 2016 10:06 PM)Cake Wrote: [ -> ]I was initially uneasy about unbanning Gravity, and I still am, but following a long session of testing and playing around with different combos, it just didn't seem as threatening as it used to be, or even as dangerous as Dark Knight. I think it's because of the shift (mostly caused by pressure from Dark Knight) to extremely low and extremely tall combos; Gravity really seems to struggle with LTDC from what I've tried, and was not sufficiently effective at OSing LTDC (or anything else, really) via spin steal to be frightening. My main concern (unless further testing, which I will definitely be doing, reveals something worrisome) is that people will immediately flock to Gravity because of its reputation and ignore all the other viable choices.

I think that's the very problem though. Limited is supposed to be a format that promotes creativity (among a lot of other things). Unfortunately, "flavor of the month" is a very prevalent thing. I think, it's easy to mistake "flavor of the month" with "ban-worthy."

However, I think the decision for me is very clear for Gravity. Regardless of if it excels with one field or the other, or if it beats the best or doesn't, if you can slap that wheel on every possible imaginable setup and have above average success with it... then it is something that shouldn't exist in this format. Stamina Gravity SW145EWD? Sure. Defense Gravity GB145RS? Sure. LTAC Gravity? Sure. I know it might not excel at every single one combo to 100% capacity... but it should be VERY alarming that this one part can be used on so many different viable setups.. don't you think?

Nocto Wrote:First, I think the nature of Limited lends itself well to experimentation. While there are decisions that may benefit from longer deliberation, I think there could be an argument in the case of Limited for a more organic approach: notice a trend; deal with it; analyze the repercussion; deal with them consequently (proceed forward or take a step back).

That being said, since you're also considering reintroducing a part--a versatile part--it would be interesting to see tests pitting same and opposite-spin Gravity against Dark Knight, to see if that renders Dark Knight a much less safer option. I've read the last three pages of the discussion thread, and most discussion involving the two pertain to how they individually compare to other parts; I've noticed only one instance where they are compared to how they play against each other.

Sorry I grabbed this from the Mentor Circle because I couldn't post there, but... [Link]

I think that currently there's a single track mind in Limited of "stepping forward" and banning to get rid of the "problems" that we have. I know that we have gone a long way from where we started. While banning does solve some issues, it's only temporary. I have said before that banning does lead to other parts becoming "too powerful." It's just how any competitive game fundamentally works. Banning Omega was a definite necessity because it did completely shut out every other option and that was bad for the format, but the banning of Libra is somewhat questionable to me. "Stepping back" and unbanning certain things might prove to be more beneficial or exciting and possibly open up the format to more creativity.

Libra kept DK in check. I know it was quite bad for the format because it shut out a lot of other options... but what if we unbanned Libra, Hell, and Gravity in one go? How would DK or Libra fare? Would Hell or Gravity keep things in check? I know we all dream of a Vulcan or Screw world, but sometimes it's really not possible without being overly stifling and being ban-heavy. I think it be more interesting to see how the game could have progressed if we had a more fluid and organic system of banning and unbanning. Stepping forwards and stepping backwards. Reflecting and assessing.

Replies/thoughts on these posts (Click to View)

While I completely understand the focus on Burst over MFB, I do think Limited should get a lot more attention than it does. The "flavor of the month" becomes even more stale when it is only one or two regions hosting Limited events every two to three months or so. The meta has kinda stalled out. Say one combo sees widespread use during an event. With the next Limited event in the area generally not happening for two to three months, that gap in between tournaments is seen as a "long period of dominance" for that combo when in "tournament time" it's only one event. MF-H Jade Aquario CH120RB was one of these combos that was super prominent in one event and then like never got used again. In between those events there was a lot of talk about banning Jade, but those were put aside once Flame 230 took over.

You say that the banning of Libra was questionable, but Libra had many of the same qualities that make you opposed to unbanning Gravity: You can put it on a bunch of different competitive setups and it'll do above average. I can't say for sure if it kept Dark Knight in check, since I remember reading someone's tests (I want to say Mitsu) when Dark Knight got good win rates vs Libra HTDC and LTDC. If it was Mitsu, I do know that he also ended up losing to Libra W145EWD using Dark Knight LTAC, so with testing vs tournaments who really knows.

However, I think that Gravity is significantly weaker than Libra in most respects. I don't think its raw Stamina is that great, and in my experience Meteo outclasses it for Spin Stealing. With most Attackers being LTAC the meta isn't looking too friendly to CH120/__145/B:D height combos, and even with a weak launch it can be KOed by an aggressively launched Defense Type. I find it worse than Lightning, DK, Quetz, Screw, Bandid Wyvang, and sometimes Pegasis and Cosmic for Attack, but apparently I'm the minority that can't get it to work (maybe because I don't have the Attack CW?). Also, I've found that despite being able to get around weak launching the versatility of being Dual Spin doesn't really help it as an Attacker unless you're up against RS (which you can probably OS/Upper OS in same spin anyways). Unless you're using TR145 I can't really see it winning any relevant LAD matchups either. Meanwhile, it is generally too recoily to use for Defense. MF-H Gravity Stamina 85/90RSF/RB might be good, but I can't see it being overwhelmingly better than Bakushin or Jade. Maybe it beats Pegasis with a weak launch?

As for these comments about the "nature" of Limited, here are my thoughts on it. While it gets a bit off topic, but I tried to tie it back into my main points at the end.

In my opinion, Limited is easily the best format for two reasons:

It allows players to be creative and experimental in their part and combo selection without a huge sacrifice of competitive ability, a quality I feel was lost in Standard starting with Zero-G. Since most everything is in the same weight class, you can get away with using "dumb" or "weird" combos. While this might sound like it makes it easier for unskilled players to win, I am of the opinion that it does the exact opposite by rewarding the players who are knowledgeable about how parts work and are therefore able to use that knowledge to create innovative combos with unique concepts that also don't suck.
It somewhat takes the role of game design out of Takara-Tomy's hands and into that of the players. We get to decide what parts are "fair" and which aren't. Of course, we sometimes make mistakes, and that's why the bans and unbans can be undone (supposedly) easily. As players, what we want for the game isn't necessarily what is best for it. But while I don't doubt Takara-Tomy puts at least some amount of playtesting into their products, I am confident that they aren't knowledgeable to the degree that most WBO members are about how each specific part performs, how it interacts with other parts, and why it is good or bad.

When Limited was originally announced, it was designed to have a banlist that updated bi-monthly. That idea was scrapped pretty quickly as th!nk and Ingulit left/became inactive, and turned into "banlist only updates when something becomes horrendously OP". The way I see it, though this may not be what those two originally intended, the end goal of Limited was a "perfect game" with an incredibly balanced overall metagame. Each of these "steps forward" we've been taking by banning and unbanning parts has supposedly brought us closer to this perfect game, which may be why the banlist updates have become so infrequent. Or it might just be because Limited tournaments have become less frequent. You need to be very influential to force a change either way on the banlist, making bans and unbans a lot more permanent than they used to be. While I'm not too sure about the whole "organic development" or "stepping forward and back" thing, I definitely agree (I think? Maybe I'm misinterpreting these posts) that the banlist needs to update a bit more frequently, and also needs to be a little easier to change. I understand that the perfect game is impossible to achieve, but with more frequent updates (and Limited tournaments) we should be able to get closer to it with many small adjustments.

With all that being said, why not ban Dark Knight and unban Gravity? If people take these comments on the nature of Limited to heart, this is an easy decision to fix should it end up being a mistake.

spoilered a bunch of things because this post got unnecessarily verbose.

Guys, this isn't the banlist discussion thread, so go there if you want to discuss banning and unbanning certain parts.
https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MFB-Lim...Discussion?

On the record though, since when was Gravity effective for Defense? On Gravity GB145RS it's RS doing all the work as it's crazy difficult to KO.

EDIT: Argh, beaten by Wombat Chocked_2

I'm pretty much fully on board with Wombat's tier list. I just have a few tweaks:

Gemios fits perfectly on Vulcan and I think it should be added to it's clear wheels.

I think the Meteo CF/GCF combos are more balance and straight up stamina.

And what about what people call the limited anti-attackers: Bakushin/Scythe Gemios/Elscopio 85/90 RF/R2F?

. Can I ask why Pieces on Jade? isn't it's little too jaggy for LTDC?

Can someone tell me which Fusion Wheel works both for Escorpio and Geminos? for MF based combo. I can do test to compare both Geminios and Scorpio

also I still think Gravity will be a problem if got unbanned

Revised list to include most of the suggestions from the last few posts:

Spoiler (Click to View)

(additions are blue and removals are red)

Limited Top Tier List Wrote:
Attack

Pegasis

MF-H Pegasis (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB)

Lightning

MF-H Lightning L-Drago [Upper] (85/90/CH120/R145/TR145) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB)

Wyvang
MSF-H (Shinobi/Gladiator/Samurai/Bandid) Wyvang [Crystal-Up] (R145/H145/GB145/TR145) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB) Merged Samurai

Vulcan
MF-H Vulcan (Byxis/Pisces/Uranus/Horuseus/Giraffe/Gemios) (85/90/CH120) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB)

Screw
MF-H Screw (Uranus/Pisces/Horogium) (85/90/CH120?) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB)

Defense

Earth
MF-H Earth (Aquario/Cygnus/Cancer/Hades/Sagittario II) (85/90/R145/GB145/TH170/230) (RSF/RB)

Scythe (Metal Fury)
MF-H Scythe (Aquario/Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (R145/GB145/TH170/230) (RSF/RB)

Bakushin
MF-H Bakushin (Leone/Escolpio/Gemios/Aires?/Libra?) (85/90) (RSF/RB/RF) Added RF back

Jade (4D / Hyperblades)
{MF(-H/-L)} Jade (Pisces/Horogium/Cygnus/Uranus/Escolpio/Gemios) (85/90) (RSF/RB)

Stamina

Burn
{MF-L} Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TR145/SW145/ED145/W145/85) (WD/EWD) Merged 85 + 145 sections
{MF-L} Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B:D

Earth
{MF-L} Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades/Sagittario II) (TR145/SW145/ED145/W145/85) (WD/EWD) Merged 85 + 145 sections
{MF-L} Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades/Sagittario II) B:D
{MF-L} Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades/Sagittario II) (TH170/230) (D/SD/MB/EDS)

Scythe (Metal Fury)
{MF-L} Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TR145/SW145/ED145/W145) (WD/EWD)
{MF-L} Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B:D
{MF-L} Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD/EDS)

Duo (Metal Fury)
{MF-L} Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TR145/SW145/ED145/W145) (WD/EWD)
{MF-L} Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B:D
{MF-L} Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD/EDS/MB) Merged Duo MB

Meteo
{MF(-H/-L)} Meteo L-Drago (TR145/ED145/CH120/S130) EWD

Balance

{MF(-H/-L)} (Scythe/Earth/Flame) (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/SR200/230) (CS/MB/EDS) (Possibly break this up to allow Earth to add Sag II and Flame to be separate because it's taller and thus behaves differently)
{MF-L} Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades/Escolpio/Gemios) (85/90) MF
{MF-L} Scythe (Escolpio/Pegasis II/Gemios/Hades/Cygnus/Cancer) (W105/LW105/DF105/90) MF
MF-H Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) CH120 RF
(Duo/Scythe) (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) F230 (CF/GCF)
{MF(-H/-L)} Meteo L-Drago (TR145/ED145/CH120/S130) (CF/GCF/GF)
Meteo L-Drago F230 (CF/GCF)

Changes:
+ Added Bandid to Wyvang Crystal Wheel options
+ Added a bunch of Tracks to some Attack and Stamina setups
+ Added optional MF-L to a lot of things
+ Added Giraffe and Gemios to Vulcan Clear Wheel options
+ Added Screw (let me know if there are any setups missing)
+ Added Sagittario II to Earth combos
+ Added tall Scythe Defense
+ Added aggressive Clear Wheel options to Bakushin and Jade
+ Added super-tall Flame to Balance
+ Added EDS to tall combos
+ Added Metal Faces to low/mid Meteo because it desperately needs more weight and can spin steal effectively enough to not be hurt badly by the Stamina loss
* Merged Wyvang Attack
* Merged LTSC and MTSC
* Merged Duo MB with the rest of the tall setups (may not be the best idea because MB is different than D/SD/EDS)
* Moved flat-tipped Meteo to Balance (though idk if it belongs there, it can't KO and can't defend)
- Removed Gravity

(Aug. 05, 2016 4:55 PM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote: [ -> ]. Can I ask why Pieces on Jade? isn't it's little too jaggy for LTDC?

The spikes almost never get hit; it's almost always the smooth outer parts that take the hits, so it's excellent for minimizing Jade's already incredibly flat profile.

My thoughts:

-Kinda on the fence here but I did some impromptu battles of W145 against SW145. From what I gathered W145 is better but not by much- it simply had the virtue of not having those wings that strike the floor when the bey is low on spin, resulting in massive spin reduction or outright cessation of spinning. Both were using Earth Beafowl ___WD so i dunno.
-I agree on ED/TR145 though- Earth ED/TR145WD/EWD is good against Meteo- a lesson I learnt from Indonesia's meta back when it was still active when we used Basalt F230CF to counter Killerken Dragoon B : D in both zero g and BB-10. (It was in the standard and zero g formats respectively). I can link you to the top tier customs in Indonesia for proof.
-IIRC Kujikato once told that Earth B Grin

is utter fail (it was in LTD's random thoughts thread) and th!nk mentioned that Bearing Drive isn't very good on smaller, lighter wheels. I dunno if this has changed or not though.
- on Gemios: aren't those spirit heads kinda in the way? It's the same with Aquila; they jut out juuussssttt abit whereas Byxis and Horuseus don't.
-I agree with Bakushin on anti-attack- it's extremely explosive. I used Bakushin Leone (II) 90RF in the past, and even some of the stronger Earth defense customs (GB145RSF/RS) are getting tossed around like ragdolls. Considering my average attack-using skills though, they could definitely do better. But since anti-attack are balance, shouldn't the Bakushin RF customs belong there instead?
-No idea about Girrafe on Vulcan.

Then again I'm only starting to spool back up on Limited knowledge and I don't own any Hasbro beys. So your thoughts everyone!

And where's Meteo CH120XF ?

Oh got it thanks for info.

My thoughts on Revised ver.:-
1. I completely agree with Bandid on Wyvang. it has awesome smash/recoil. just works well Smile

2. I doubt CH120 would work well on Screw. I know it was top-tier and would be good against 230CS but Screw needs to be lower then it's opponent in order to use it's upper attack or else it's smash in not best. how about DF105? it did awesomely for me, still KOs LTC just well and still have some chances to KO 230 [not CS or taller one].

3. How about adding Escorpio to Screw? it just expose contact points of Screw well but it is extremely aggressive and great smash attack.

4. Ah. Well I 100% agree with Sagirterio 2 and TH170/230 on Sythe Wink

.

5. Well I also like Escorpio on Jade and Bakushin

6. how about adding LW165PD/SD there? it's great for stamina

7. Isn't EDS is too wobbly on 230?

(Aug. 05, 2016 6:23 PM)RDF3 Wrote: [ -> ]My thoughts:

-Kinda on the fence here but I did some impromptu battles of W145 against SW145. From what I gathered W145 is better but not by much- it simply had the virtue of not having those wings that strike the floor when the bey is low on spin, resulting in massive spin reduction or outright cessation of spinning. Both were using Earth Beafowl ___WD so i dunno.
-I agree on ED/TR145 though- Earth ED/TR145WD/EWD is good against Meteo- a lesson I learnt from Indonesia's meta back when it was still active when we used Basalt F230CF to counter Killerken Dragoon B : D in both zero g and BB-10. (It was in the standard and zero g formats respectively). I can link you to the top tier customs in Indonesia for proof.
-IIRC Kujikato once told that Earth B is utter fail (it was in LTD's random thoughts thread) and th!nk mentioned that Bearing Drive isn't very good on smaller, lighter wheels. I dunno if this has changed or not though.
- on Gemios: aren't those spirit heads kinda in the way? It's the same with Aquila; they jut out juuussssttt abit whereas Byxis and Horuseus don't.
-I agree with Bakushin on anti-attack- it's extremely explosive. I used Bakushin Leone (II) 90RF in the past, and even some of the stronger Earth defense customs (GB145RSF/RS) are getting tossed around like ragdolls. Considering my average attack-using skills though, they could definitely do better. But since anti-attack are balance, shouldn't the Bakushin RF customs belong there instead?
-No idea about Girrafe on Vulcan.

Then again I'm only starting to spool back up on Limited knowledge and I don't own any Hasbro beys. So your thoughts everyone!

And where's Meteo CH120XF ?

Well I don't think SW145 ever scrapes on WD, it may do at last few wobble but it doesn't seems like that much noticable

also GCF and XF are basicly same Smile

Yes, that's what I meant. At the end of a match (or when heavily destabilized), SW145's wings scrape the floor, whereas W145's wings don't since they are relatively close to the body of the track. While it doesn't seem much, it will matter in serious matches where one or two micro-factors like this make the difference between victory and defeat. I dunno if it actually helps LAD or not though, since the shape does not seem condusive for it.

I did some more informal testing today, and I can now personally say that Screw should definitely be top-tier. Whenever I used it before, it never seemed to be able to do anything against same-height combos, which made it inferior to Vulcan in my opinion, despite the fact that it did have better Upper. But today, Screw was clearly hitting harder vs Earth Defense, whether the matchup was low track vs low track or LTAC vs MTDC. Vulcan still seems to do better against Bakushin, though (I think the reverse slope helps make better contact against Bakushin's slopes) but Screw was hitting harder more consistently, and with less recoil. I wouldn't rule out Vulcan, personally, but Screw is definitely a much more compelling option for me now.

Also, I did some quick Stamina tests a while back to compare different Stamina tracks, namely W145 vs TR145 vs SW145; here's a repost:

Spin times are measured across an average of 5 tests using Burn Cygnus ____ WD. (not that rigorous, I know)

W145:
+ Great solo spin time (3:30)
+ Not very wide, so opponents can't hit it
* Provides no support against floor scrapes
- Not particularly heavy (2.2g)

TR145:
+ Better solo spin time (3:44)
+ Moderately heavy (3.2g)
+ Circular shape and rollers reduce loss of spin when touching the floor
+ Circular shape and rollers reduce loss of spin when contacting opponents

SW145:
! Worse solo spin time (2:41)
+ Moderately heavy (3.6g)
- Angular shape isn't great for LAD
- Angular shape is a bit recoily if hit

It might just be that my SW145 is loose and rattly, but my SW145 gets substantially worse solo spin time than W145, while TR145 reliably outperforms it (slightly). I planned to get around to some additional tests comparing W145 and TR145 today, as well as some official tests on Vulcan and Jade, but house work took up the greater part of my day today DJ - Sad.

Does RDF has any use in this format?

Is banned so no

Oh sorry! I don't remember it.

Has there been any testing for Lynx with Vulcan? if there hasn't i would assume they would do well with each-other since they are both Quetzalcoatloid (similar shape to PHW Quetzalcoatl).

(not really asking a question,i just want to know if my fave CW is competitive or not)

With the latest ban list update I think it's time to finally set in stone the updated tier list

Limited Top Tier List Wrote:
Attack

Pegasis

MF-H Pegasis (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB)

Lightning

MF-H Lightning L-Drago [Upper] (85/90/CH120/R145/TR145) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB)

Wyvang
MSF-H (Shinobi/Gladiator/Samurai/Bandid) Wyvang [Crystal-Up] (R145/H145/GB145/TR145) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB) Merged Samurai

Vulcan
MF-H Vulcan (Byxis/Pisces/Uranus/Horuseus/Giraffe/Gemios) (85/90/CH120) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB)

Screw
MF-H Screw (Uranus/Pisces/Horogium) (85/90/CH120) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB)

Gravity
MF-H Gravity Perseus (S130/CH120/R145/TR145) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB)

Defense

Earth
MF-H Earth (Aquario/Cygnus/Cancer/Hades/Sagittario II) (85/90/R145/GB145/TH170/230) (RSF/RB)

Scythe (Metal Fury)
MF-H Scythe (Aquario/Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (R145/GB145/TH170/230) (RSF/RB)

Bakushin
MF-H Bakushin (Leone/Escolpio/Gemios/Aires?/Libra?) (85/90) (RSF/RB/RF) Added RF back

Jade (4D / Hyperblades)
{MF(-H/-L)} Jade (Pisces/Horogium/Cygnus/Uranus/Escolpio/Gemios) (85/90) (RSF/RB)

Stamina

Burn
{MF-L} Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TR145/SW145/ED145/W145/85) (WD/EWD) Merged 85 + 145 sections
{MF-L} Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B Grin

Earth
{MF-L} Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades/Sagittario II) (TR145/SW145/ED145/W145/85) (WD/EWD) Merged 85 + 145 sections
{MF-L} Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades/Sagittario II) B Grin

{MF-L} Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades/Sagittario II) (TH170/230) (D/SD/MB/EDS)

Scythe (Metal Fury)
{MF-L} Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TR145/SW145/ED145/W145) (WD/EWD)
{MF-L} Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B Grin

{MF-L} Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD/EDS)

Duo (Metal Fury)
{MF-L} Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TR145/SW145/ED145/W145) (WD/EWD)
{MF-L} Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B Grin

{MF-L} Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD/EDS/MB) Merged Duo MB

Meteo
{MF(-H/-L)} Meteo L-Drago (TR145/ED145/CH120/S130) EWD

Balance

{MF(-H/-L)} (Scythe/Earth/Flame) (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/SR200/230) (CS/MB/EDS) (
{MF-L} Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades/Escolpio/Gemios) (85/90) MF
{MF-L} Scythe (Escolpio/Pegasis II/Gemios/Hades/Cygnus/Cancer) (W105/LW105/DF105/90) MF
MF-H Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) CH120 RF
(Duo/Scythe) (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) F230 (CF/GCF)
{MF(-H/-L)} Meteo L-Drago (TR145/ED145/CH120/S130) (CF/GCF/GF)
Meteo L-Drago F230 (CF/GCF)
Gravity Perseus F230 (CF/GCF)
Gravity Perseus (S130/CH120/TR145/ED145) (CF/GCF/GF)

Reformatting the list to match the OP, and adding back Gravity since it was unbanned. I think we've pretty much settled on a final list, unless anyone still has some problems with it.

EDIT: Added 100, W105, DF105, and LW105 to LTAC.

Limited Top Tier List Wrote:
Attack

Pegasis
MF-H Pegasis (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB)

Lightning
MF-H Lightning L-Drago [Upper] (85/90/100/W105/DF105/LW105/CH120/R145/TR145) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB)

Wyvang
MSF-H (Shinobi/Gladiator/Samurai/Bandid) Wyvang [Crystal-Up] (R145/H145/GB145/TR145) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB)

Gravity
MF-H Gravity Perseus (S130/CH120/R145/TR145) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB)

Vulcan
MF-H Vulcan (Byxis/Pisces/Uranus/Horuseus/Giraffe/Gemios) (85/90/100/W105/DF105/LW105/CH120) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB)

Screw
MF-H Screw (Uranus/Pisces/Horogium) (85/90/100/W105/DF105/LW105) (RF/R2F/LRF/RSF/RB)

Defense

Earth
MF-H Earth (Aquario/Cygnus/Cancer/Hades/Sagittario II) (85/90/R145/GB145/TH170/230) (RSF/RB)

Scythe (Metal Fury)
MF-H Scythe (Aquario/Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (R145/GB145/TH170/230) (RSF/RB)

Bakushin
MF-H Bakushin (Leone/Escolpio/Gemios/Aires/Libra) (85/90) (RSF/RB/RF)

Jade (4D / Hyperblades)
{MF(-H/-L)} Jade (Pisces/Horogium/Cygnus/Uranus/Escolpio/Gemios) (85/90) (RSF/RB)

Stamina

Burn
{MF-L} Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TR145/SW145/ED145/W145/85) (WD/EWD)

{MF-L} Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B:D

Earth
{MF-L} Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades/Sagittario II) (TR145/SW145/ED145/W145/85) (WD/EWD)

{MF-L} Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades/Sagittario II) B:D

{MF-L}[/color] Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades/Sagittario II) (TH170/230) (D/SD/MB/EDS)

Scythe (Metal Fury)
{MF-L} Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TR145/SW145/ED145/W145) (WD/EWD)

{MF-L} Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B:D

{MF-L} Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD/EDS)

Duo (Metal Fury)
{MF-L} Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TR145/SW145/ED145/W145) (WD/EWD)

{MF-L} Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B:D

{MF-L} Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD/EDS/MB)

Meteo
{MF(-H/-L)} Meteo L-Drago (TR145/ED145/CH120/S130) EWD

Balance
{MF(-H/-L)} (Scythe/Earth/Flame) (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/SR200/230) (CS/MB/EDS)

{MF-L} Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades/Escolpio/Gemios) (85/90) MF

{MF-L} Scythe (Escolpio/Pegasis II/Gemios/Hades/Cygnus/Cancer) (90/W105/DF105/LW105) MF

MF-H Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) CH120 RF

(Duo/Scythe) (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) F230 (CF/GCF)

{MF(-H/-L)} Meteo L-Drago (TR145/ED145/CH120/S130) (CF/GCF/GF)

Meteo L-Drago F230 (CF/GCF)

Gravity Perseus F230 (CF/GCF)

Gravity Perseus (S130/CH120/TR145/ED145) (CF/GCF/GF)

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