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Full Version: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion
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(Sep. 12, 2014  2:41 AM)TʜᴇBʟᴀᴄᴋDʀᴀɢᴏɴ Wrote: [ -> ]I don't have Pisces on Omega, because honestly, Horuseus and Pegasis III are far superior in just about every way.

In what way really are you talking about? Pretty much every CW doesn't cover Omega's contact points. Also, pisces has really good CW attack which is useful at low heights with Omega.

(Sep. 12, 2014  2:41 AM)TʜᴇBʟᴀᴄᴋDʀᴀɢᴏɴ Wrote: [ -> ]I didn't list TH170 or SR200 from Cosmic - Recoil party. I have tried both, and yes, they have some great smash, but they have such a ridiculous amount of recoil I wouldn't ever think twice about using either over the R145 variant.
From what I can tell, no tracks really have recoil. Maybe something like WD145, but defenitely not SR200 or TH170. But do you mean the underside of Cosmic is recoily? Because it's not that, its just that its not a very good idea to have attack types on high heights because of the recoil. That is maximized on a high track.

(Sep. 12, 2014  2:41 AM)TʜᴇBʟᴀᴄᴋDʀᴀɢᴏɴ Wrote: [ -> ]TH170/230 are listed as Defense Tracks (don't know why they weren't on the other list).
Since when...?

(Sep. 12, 2014  2:41 AM)TʜᴇBʟᴀᴄᴋDʀᴀɢᴏɴ Wrote: [ -> ]Omitted Libra from Stamina and listed BGrin with Burn Stamina (it's honestly better than W145WD in just about every way, including recoil control from my experience - there's no evidence anywhere on the entire site to suggest that BGrin has recoil control issues, as a matter of fact).
Why? Libra's much better than Burn, IMO.

(Sep. 12, 2014  2:41 AM)TʜᴇBʟᴀᴄᴋDʀᴀɢᴏɴ Wrote: [ -> ]Does it get anyone else excited to see so many Wheels being discussed for the Attack section? There are tons of them...
It's Limited.
(Sep. 12, 2014  2:41 AM)TʜᴇBʟᴀᴄᴋDʀᴀɢᴏɴ Wrote: [ -> ]Hey guys! Finally read through this whole thing, including every post I missed in the entire LTD subforum. Lemme give this a shot:

Quote:
Attack

Omega
  • MF-H Omega [Assault] (Horuseus/Pegasis III/Lacerta?) (85/90/100/CH120) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Cosmic
  • MF-H Cosmic (Kerbecs/Unicorno II) (R145/CH120) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Beat
  • MF-H Beat (Lynx/Orion/Escolpio) H145/GB145 (RF/R2F/LRF)

Pegasis
  • MF-H Pegasis (85/90/CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Lightning
  • MF-H Lightning L-Drago [Upper] (85/90/CH120/R145/TR145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Screw
  • MF-H Screw (Horogium/Pisces/Uranus) (85/90) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Wyvang
  • MSF-H (Shinobi/Gladiator/Samurai) Wyvang [Crystal-Up] H145/R145 (RF/R2F/LRF)
  • MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang DF105 RF/R2F/LRF

Phoenic
  • MSF-H Thief Phoenic [Crystal-Up] (R145/H145) (RF/R2F/LRF)



Defense

Earth
  • MF-H Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (85/90/R145/GB145/TH170/230) (RSF/RB/CS)

Libra
  • MF-H Libra (85/90/R145/GB145) (RSF/RB/CS)

Scythe
  • MF-H Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (R145/GB145) (RSF/RB/CS)

Bakushin
  • MF-H Bakushin Leone (85/90) (RSF/RB/CS)



Stamina

Burn
  • Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145/85 (WD/EWD)
  • Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) BGrin
  • Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230/SR200) (D/SD/TB)

Earth
  • Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145/85 (WD/EWD)
  • Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) BGrin
  • Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230/SR200) (D/SD/TB)

Scythe
  • Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
  • Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) BGrin
  • Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230/SR200) (D/SD/TB)


Duo
  • Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
  • Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) BGrin
  • Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230/SR200) (D/SD/TB)
  • Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 230 MB

Meteo
  • Meteo L-Drago (TR145/CH120/ED145?) EWD



Balance
  • {MF-H} Libra (TH170/SR200) CS
  • {MF-H} (Scythe/Earth) (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/SR200) CS
  • Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (85/90) MF
  • MF-H Libra (85/CH120) RF
  • MF-H Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) CH120 RF
  • Meteo L-Drago F230 (CF/GCF)
  • (Duo/Scythe) (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) F230 (CF/GCF)
  • Libra F230 (CF/GCF)
  • MF-L Burn (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) F230 CS

I'm okay with removing Pisces from Omega, but I've never tried it. Will Lacerta work? It's roughly the same shape as Horuseus.

I'm still iffy about Beat, but if it goes up GB145 should be added. I was doing some Vulcan tests before I broke my wrist and it was holding pretty even with Lightning and Screw. Once I get my cast off I'll finish and post them. I remember th!nk saying Cosmic worked best as a Force Smasher and that's why he had it on TH170/SR200.

Also, no Samurai on Wyvang? I'm not a huge fan of Wyvang but isn't that the usual Right Spin setup? And doesn't work as well on 145 height as it does on a shorter Track.

Seriously though what is your beef with CS? It's a great Defensive part; it's just that its problem in Standard is that it can't keep up with the heavier metagame. It works perfectly fine in Limited.

I'm pretty sure that the community agreed recently that Cancer and Cygnus are for all purposes better than Aquario, not quite sure why you put it up there.

WD and EWD > D and SD on 85, so I consolidated the two. Maybe 90 should be added because sometimes 85 scrapes. Also you seem to have forgotten SR200TB was a thing. I remember you explicitly saying that TB was your favorite Tall Track Stamina Tip.

Would it be alright to add (MF-L/MF-F) to the Stamina combos? Or ED145 to Meteo L-Drago? I know ED145 was up in the air but doesn't it perform basically as well as TR145?

Just for clarity's sake I separated Libra from Scythe and Duo on F230CF/GCF since you did the same for TH170/SR200CS. Also I strongly believe Burn F230CS deserves a spot.
CS isn't as good in Limited, IMO.

I totally want MF-L/MF-F up there for stamina much better than a normal face from my tests. Even a MF-H was better than a refular face.
(Sep. 12, 2014  3:22 AM)Wombat Wrote: [ -> ]I'm okay with removing Pisces from Omega, but I've never tried it. Will Lacerta work? It's roughly the same shape as Horuseus.

I tested literally every CW I ownded with Omega, and none worked nearly as well as Horuseus or Pegasis III (except, surprisingly, for Unicorno, but it wasn't quite on level with Pegasis II and Horuseus was far better).

Quote:I'm still iffy about Beat, but if it goes up GB145 should be added. I was doing some Vulcan tests before I broke my wrist and it was holding pretty even with Lightning and Screw. Once I get my cast off I'll finish and post them. I remember th!nk saying Cosmic worked best as a Force Smasher and that's why he had it on TH170/SR200.

I thought I put GB145 on there. Hmmm, guess I didn't. I'll add it. Thanks for pointing that out.

Quote:Also, no Samurai on Wyvang? I'm not a huge fan of Wyvang but isn't that the usual Right Spin setup? And doesn't work as well on 145 height as it does on a shorter Track.

th!nk did testing with Wyvang Attack combinations, and both he and I found that Gladiator and Shinobi are pretty much flat-out superior to Samurai for right-spin Attack. Samurai is like the smoothest Crystal Wheel in the game, so using it for Attack doesn't make much sense, haha.

Quote:Seriously though what is your beef with CS? It's a great Defensive part; it's just that its problem in Standard is that it can't keep up with the heavier metagame. It works perfectly fine in Limited.

I don't have a "beef" with CS - it just isn't as solid as other Defensive Bottoms (and actually, I'd say it's even worse comparatively in Limited than it is in Standard - th!nk did plenty of testing with it, and he was strongly in favor of its total removal).

Quote:I'm pretty sure that the community agreed recently that Cancer and Cygnus are for all purposes better than Aquario, not quite sure why you put it up there.

It's still listed for Defense on the STD tier list. I could see it being removed at some point, but that's why I put it up there.

Quote:WD and EWD > D and SD on 85, so I consolidated the two. Maybe 90 should be added because sometimes 85 scrapes. Also you seem to have forgotten SR200TB was a thing. I remember you explicitly saying that TB was your favorite Tall Track Stamina Tip.

Are you sure about that? I've done testing with Earth 85 and SD out-spins WD relatively reliably for me. Also, IIRC the testing that established SD as a competitive Stamina part was done at least partially with early low-Track Stamina customs. Could be wrong, but that's the impression I was under. I see no reason not to list them TBH.

TB was tested (by yours truly and multiple others) and proved ineffective with lightweight Limited Format Stamina setups. It stinks, but it really doesn't work.

It's my favorite tall-Track Stamina Bottom in Standard and Zero-G, yah, but not in Limited (I kind of
wish it was awesome in LTD too, but it hasn't worked at all for me so far).

Quote:Would it be alright to add (MF-L/MF-F) to the Stamina combos? Or ED145 to Meteo L-Drago? I know ED145 was up in the air but doesn't it perform basically as well as TR145?

I don't see much point in listing MF options for Stamina combos (I mean, maybe, but it seems kind of pointless to me).

I could see ED145 going up, yah. Are there tests for that anywhere?

Quote:Just for clarity's sake I separated Libra from Scythe and Duo on F230CF/GCF since you did the same for TH170/SR200CS. Also I strongly believe Burn F230CS deserves a spot.

Oh, good. I thought I had separated them. Whoopsy, haha.

Ehhh... maybe. I haven't looked at too much testing for it yet. I will later today, but as for now I don't know enough about to give you an opinion.
I'll just say this from the shadows:

CS- I'll agree if it's not good for defense in Limited, but th!nk mentioned too that it is good as a balance bottom (in LTD's random thoughts thread). CS just isn't as solid as RSF for defense because it's only half rubber. It's got one advantage though, and it's stamina.

Aquario- If you have it you gotta love it. Aquario, Cancer, and Cygnus were tied in defense, am I mistaken or what? I'm sure Cancer=Cygnus > Aquario only for stamina, haha.

MF- During the early days of Limited I remember th!nk saying MF has potential for defense for it's ability to catch the tornado ridge. Not 100% sure on this but then again you should probably test it.

TB- it practically has no place in the game, since it's basically a stamina-focused version of MB and MB hasn't worked well off Duo 230MB or the whatlike.



Finally, no RF for defense? Th!nk mentioned RF defense a good option too, and I agree with him. Or you guys
probably thought RF was exclusive to anti-attack?
Small comments
I absolutely love Scythe SR200/230 TB. It absolutely destroys any right spin stuff put against it and for some reason has a weird ability to work decently against F230.
I tested Burn Cancer and MF-L Burn Kerbecs and it had a 9-second higher spin time than Regular Face + Cancer. I think people should really try out MF-L.
I still feel Libra deserves a Stamina spot, honestly. It's on par with Earth and other Top Tier choices.
(Sep. 12, 2014  4:44 PM)TʜᴇBʟᴀᴄᴋDʀᴀɢᴏɴ Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:Also, no Samurai on Wyvang? I'm not a huge fan of Wyvang but isn't that the usual Right Spin setup? And doesn't work as well on 145 height as it does on a shorter Track.

th!nk did testing with Wyvang Attack combinations, and both he and I found that Gladiator and Shinobi are pretty much flat-out superior to Samurai for right-spin Attack. Samurai is like the smoothest Crystal Wheel in the game, so using it for Attack doesn't make much sense, haha.
Huh, I thought it was because Samurai was the heaviest Crystal Wheel and was either the most balanced or had the best synergy with Wyvang. I guess not though.

Quote:
Quote:Seriously though what is your beef with CS? It's a great Defensive part; it's just that its problem in Standard is that it can't keep up with the heavier metagame. It works perfectly fine in Limited.

I don't have a "beef" with CS - it just isn't as solid as other Defensive Bottoms (and actually, I'd say it's even worse comparatively in Limited than it is in Standard - th!nk did plenty of testing with it, and he was strongly in favor of its total removal).
Really? CS actually performs better for me in Limited than it does in Standard. The lighter weight of the Beyblades makes it easier to get aggressive and "counterattack" (you've seen the picture I'm talking about) without the extra weight slowing it down.

Quote:
Quote:I'm pretty sure that the community agreed recently that Cancer and Cygnus are for all purposes better than Aquario, not quite sure why you put it up there.

It's still listed for Defense on the STD tier list. I could see it being removed at some point, but that's why I put it up there.
I thought this was basically the consensus that they came to:
(Sep. 12, 2014  6:30 PM)RDF3 Wrote: [ -> ]Aquario- If you have it you gotta love it. Aquario, Cancer, and Cygnus were tied in defense, am I mistaken or what? I'm sure Cancer=Cygnus > Aquario only for stamina, haha.
So if they're tied for Defense but Cygnus and Cancer have better Stamina wouldn't they be considered all-around better choices?

Quote:
Quote:WD and EWD > D and SD on 85, so I consolidated the two. Maybe 90 should be added because sometimes 85 scrapes. Also you seem to have forgotten SR200TB was a thing. I remember you explicitly saying that TB was your favorite Tall Track Stamina Tip.

Are you sure about that? I've done testing with Earth 85 and SD out-spins WD relatively reliably for me. Also, IIRC the testing that established SD as a competitive Stamina part was done at least partially with early low-Track Stamina customs. Could be wrong, but that's the impression I was under. I see no reason not to list them TBH.
I guess the keyword here would be "early", as in the time of Quetz and Dark Bull (90SD) before Earth Aquila was released and WD blew SD out of the water. If we have to keep SD at least get rid of D, it really only works on Tall Tracks while SD is like second best at every height.


Quote:Just for clarity's sake I separated Libra from Scythe and Duo on F230CF/GCF since you did the same for TH170/SR200CS. Also I strongly believe Burn F230CS deserves a spot.

Oh, good. I thought I had separated them. Whoopsy, haha.

Ehhh... maybe. I haven't looked at too much testing for it yet. I will later today, but as for now I don't know enough about to give you an opinion.
[/quote]
Shouldn't Libra 230 mb be on there? because form my experiences, it does a way better job then duo 230 mb for balance.
For stamina, duo 230 mb could be a better option, but in total, libra 230 mb works way better then duo 230 mb
(Sep. 13, 2014  4:55 AM)Wombat Wrote: [ -> ]I guess the keyword here would be "early", as in the time of Quetz and Dark Bull (90SD) before Earth Aquila was released and WD blew SD out of the water. If we have to keep SD at least get rid of D, it really only works on Tall Tracks while SD is like second best at every height.

I wouldn't way that WD blew SD out of the water (because, again, when I pair them up against each other SD usually wins).

But I didn't think of the timeline, so I guess you're right about that.

We should ask somebody "old" about this, haha (as in somebody who was active around the release of WD)
Bleh, I've been meaning to do some ED145/TR145 testing for a while but I've been too lazy to do it... I better get working on that before I forget again Tongue_out

EDIT: Woo did ze testings:

This is a mirror match between TR145 and ED145, using Gravity Perseus (Attack mold) in Defense mode, each with a near-mint WD. Spin directions were alternated every five rounds, tracks were switched halfway through, and whichever Beyblade was left-spin was launched second and was weak-launched. I used a Beylauncher L/R to do the tests, so the left-spin Beyblade was launched about two seconds after the first since I had to switch the caps. KOs and ties were re-done.

Color-coded for your convenience Wink

ED145 wins: 11 (55%)
TR145 wins: 9 (45%)
Detailed results:

I'd say the two tracks are pretty much equal; I have a good mold of both tracks, so I don't think that that would cause any swing in favor to either side. They also both weigh almost the same; my TR145 is just 0.1g heavier. As far as I can tell, TR145 = ED145. I would say it's fair to add ED145 to the tier list, though it would be good to have someone else do some testing.
Thanks a ton for that, Cake.

I reckon this calls for an edit.
Alright guys, I think this is it:

Quote:
Attack

Omega
  • MF-H Omega [Assault] (Horuseus/Pegasis III) (85/90/100/CH120) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Cosmic
  • MF-H Cosmic (Kerbecs/Unicorno II) (R145/CH120) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Beat
  • MF-H Beat (Lynx/Orion/Escolpio) (H145/GB145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Pegasis
  • MF-H Pegasis (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Lightning
  • MF-H Lightning L-Drago [Upper] (85/90/CH120/R145/TR145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Screw
  • MF-H Screw (Horogium/Pisces) (85/90) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Wyvang
  • MSF-H (Shinobi/Gladiator/Dark Knight) Wyvang [Crystal-Up] R145 (RF/R2F/LRF)

Phoenic
  • MSF-H Thief Phoenic [Crystal-Up] (R145/H145) (RF/R2F/LRF)



Defense

Earth
  • MF-H Earth (Aquario/Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (85/90/R145/GB145/TH170/230) (RSF/RB)

Libra
  • MF-H Libra (85/90/R145/GB145) (RSF/RB)

Scythe
  • MF-H Scythe (Aquario/Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (R145/GB145) (RSF/RB)

Bakushin
  • MF-H Bakushin Leone (85/90) (RSF/RB)



Stamina

Burn
  • Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
  • Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) BGrin
  • Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 85 (WD/EWD)
  • Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD)

Earth
  • Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
  • Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) BGrin
  • Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 85 (WD/EWD)
  • Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH120/230) (D/SD)

Scythe
  • Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
  • Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) BGrin
  • Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH120/230) (D/SD)


Duo
  • Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
  • Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) BGrin
  • Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH120/230) (D/SD)
  • Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 230 MB

Meteo
  • Meteo L-Drago (TR145/ED145/CH120) EWD



Balance
  • {MF-H} Libra (TH170/SR200) CS
  • {MF-H} (Scythe/Earth) (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/SR200) CS
  • Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (85/90) MF
  • MF-H Libra (85/CH120) RF
  • MF-H Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) CH120 RF
  • Meteo L-Drago F230 (CF/GCF)
  • (Duo/Scythe) (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) F230 (CF/GCF)
  • Libra F230 (CF/GCF)

I like this list. I removed D and SD from 85 Stamina (seems like you were right, Wombat), and I added GB145 to Beat. I also added ED145 to Meteo Stamina.

Who thinks it's time to knock this thing out?
Just a quick note, you mislabeled TH170 as TH120 in Burn Stamina, haha.
By golly, you're right, haha.

EDIT: Alright, since nobody has posted any objections all afternoon, I'm gonna go ahead and post this in the Advanced forum!

Fingers crossed we can get the list posted soon!
Umm... not to be rude, but why did you make the thread? No one has decided on your list yet, or any corrections, plus Wombat had the most solid list created and did the most work to put the finalized one together, and you kinda just stole it...

Anyways, why did we put Screw up there again? I don't think everyone agreed on that it should be there.
(Sep. 18, 2014  11:40 PM)Echizen Wrote: [ -> ]Anyways, why did we put Screw up there again? I don't think everyone agreed on that it should be there.

Looking back a few pages, it looks like a lot of people are uneasy about Screw, except Wombat (see the end of page 17).

(Sep. 18, 2014  11:40 PM)Echizen Wrote: [ -> ]Umm... not to be rude, but why did you make the thread? No one has decided on your list yet, or any corrections, plus Wombat had the most solid list created and did the most work to put the finalized one together, and you kinda just stole it...

That list is the corrected version of the tier list... Just look at the revisions taking place over the last several pages. It's not something TBD "stole" from Wombat or just made up; it's the result of several pages of discussion. There is most likely not going to be a completely unanimous group consensus here; there's likely to be a few things that people aren't comfortable with but should go on the list anyways. That's part of a compromise. And remember, the list isn't getting put up as a final edition immediately; it's going to be discussed and revised further in the Advanced Forum.
If people were uneasy about it, should it still be there? I haven't really looked much but I don't remember much comparative testing.
TBH I don't think Screw should be on there, I personally put it in the same tier as Vulcan - good but not top-tier worthy. But if there is testing out there showing that it's good, I wouldn't mind so much.
(Sep. 18, 2014  11:40 PM)Echizen Wrote: [ -> ]Umm... not to be rude, but why did you make the thread? No one has decided on your list yet, or any corrections, plus Wombat had the most solid list created and did the most work to put the finalized one together, and you kinda just stole it...

Actually, the draft that I posted (not "my" draft) was something I made totally on my own, that I began months ago before Wombat had posted his draft. I didn't "steal" anything.

And the draft I posted is actually significantly different than the one Wombat posted, so it is not nearly the same list.

What does it matter anyway? Nobody owns anything on this forum (especially not the tier list). It's not my list, and it isn't Wombat's list; it belongs to no one. It's the product of testing and discussion from dozens of users. I would have been fine if Wombat had posted the discussion and taken the list I drafted.

You had like three days to post something, and you didn't. I took everybody's suggestions and put them into the list, and when nobody objected, I figured it was OK to post.

Is there something that you think should be different? I can still change it.
Has anyone besides Th!nk tested Phoenic extensively? I'm not a fan of it being on the list, to be honest (even less so than Screw). I've looked at Thief/Samurai/Dark Knight Phoenic a little myself and they're pretty sub-par compared to options like Omega and Lightning. At the very least, I think it should be tested by a few other people against defense options besides Libra SW145 CS.

Everything else looks good to me, though I would like to add that I think Libra B:D is acknowledged as a good enough stamina combo to be added (it was also on Wombat's list a few pages back)
I still have to agree on Phoenix. I did look at the results, but I just feel personally that Phoenix is just not as good as some of the other parts, from personal testing I did for myself a few days ago.

I also agree about having Libra as a Stamina option- seeing it firsthand, Libra Stamina setups (BGrin and 230 D) did pretty great at AN. It's a great option and on par with Earth, if not better.
Coach posted a Phoenic custom in the early days of Limited.

If you look at these links TBD posted there's some Stamina tests for Libra.
(Sep. 19, 2014  4:43 AM)Leone19 Wrote: [ -> ]I also agree about having Libra as a Stamina option- seeing it firsthand, Libra Stamina setups (BGrin and 230 D) did pretty great at AN. It's a great option and on par with Earth, if not better.

I love Libra BGrin(Bearing Drive) just for the versatility of it. I used it quite a bit at AN because of all the left spin beyblades that were there. Definitely belongs on the tier list.
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