(Jan. 25, 2015 3:52 PM)Leone19 Wrote: [ -> ]Sure, I'll try to do some testing when I get time. I did some before didn't get great results that youre mentioning, never logged them though, haha.
Same thing with me. I'll do a few formal tests sometime soon though.
So for some weird reason, my post yesterday/early today got removed so I'll post it again.
What do people think about adding H145 for right-spin Wyvang, as well as making Dark Knight Wyvang exclusively a LTAC? In the early days of Limted Dark Knight Wyvang DF105LRF had a lot of use, I'm assuming because it combined the effectiveness of Dark Knight LTACs with Wyvang's smash to also take out LTDCs and LTSCs.
I also never bought Phoenic, and have never seen it in action so I don't really know what to think of it, though it doesn't seem like it would be in the same league as Omega or Pegasus to me.
I messed around with some Crystal Up combination with Phoenic, and I was quite surprised. Phoenic is a really really violent Chrome Wheel, even more violent than Omega. I think it have a really good potential in LTD attack combinations. Anybody ever tested it ?
I'd say it's still below Pegasis and Omega personally, but it still has some great smash and definitely needs more looking into. I probably would like it more if I owned some MSF's, but I'd still say other wheels have the upper hand just because of balance and pure attack power. It does have quite the wide range of use though because from what I remember it could KO A LOT of defenders at various different heights. I have trouble doing that with Pegasis.
Omega's smash is a tough standard to hold any Wheel to, but I'd say Phoenic and Pegasis are pretty much on the same level as far as raw power goes.
I'm going to do some quick Attack testing, comparing Phoenic, Pegasis, Lightning and Wyvang against Different Defense setups. I'll use each with its most height-versatile setup (MF-H Pegasis CH120RF, MSF-H Thief Phoenic [Crystal-Up] H145RF, and MSF-H (Shinobi/Dark Knight) Wyvang R145RF, and MF-H Lightning L-Drago CH120RF).
Tests will hopefully be up later today; I'd encourage anybody else who can to do the same comparisons.
In response to what you mentioned in your notes, I feel Zirago and Griffin are probably the better options. At least from what I've tested, Zirago has worked best for me.
Testing!
Quote:MF-H Pegasis CH120R2F vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II 90RB
Sagittario launched first on all launches. Prime R2F, slightly worn RB.
Pegasis: wins, 17/25 (All KO)
Sagittario: wins, 8/25 (1 KO, 7 OS)
MF-H Pegasis CH120R2F win rate: 68%
Looks like my launch is doing around average today. Perfect.
Quote:MF-H Pegasis CH145R2F vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II GB145RB
Sagittario launched first on all launches. Prime R2F, slightly worn RB.
Pegasis: wins, 8/20 (All KO)
Sagittario: wins, 12/20 (1 KO, 11 OS)
MF-H Pegasis CH145R2F win rate: 40%
Oh wow; not very good at all. That was kind of strange.
On the suspicion that the low win rate in this set had something to do with CH120 (I usually use R145 for this sort of matchup), I went ahead and gave it another go with R145:
Quote:MF-H Pegasis R145R2F vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II GB145RB
Sagittario launched first on all launches. Prime R2F, slightly worn RB.
Pegasis: wins, 12/20 (All KO)
Sagittario: wins, 8/20 (All OS)
MF-H Pegasis R145R2F win rate: 60%
Much better. I'm actually kind of surprised how much worse CH120 was than R145; a comparison between the two would be interesting.
Quote:MF-H Pegasis R145R2F vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II 230RB
Sagittario launched first on all launches. Prime R2F, slightly worn RB.
Pegasis: wins, 8/20 (All KO)
Sagittario: wins, 12/20 (1 KO, 11 OS)
MF-H Pegasis R145R2F win rate: 40%
There you have it. This should give us something solid to compare Wyvang/Phoenic to.
Quote:MSF-H Thief Phoenic [Crystal-Up] H145R2F vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II 90RB
Sagittario launched first on all launches. Prime R2F, slightly worn RB.
Phoenic: wins, 13/20 (All KO)
Sagittario: wins, 7/20 (3 KO, 4 OS)
MSF-H Thief Phoenic [Crystal-Up] H145R2F win rate: 65%
Pretty darn impressive, actually. On par with (actually, almost exactly the same as) Pegasis CH120's results against the same custom.
Quote:MSF-H Thief Phoenic [Crystal-Up] H145R2F vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II GB145RB
Sagittario launched first on all launches. Prime R2F, slightly worn RB.
Phoenic: wins, 10/20 (All KO)
Sagittario: wins, 10/20 (3 KO, 7 OS)
MSF-H Thief Phoenic [Crystal-Up] H145R2F win rate: 50%
I lost count of all the wall saves that happened during this match. I'm very confident that this could've been a 60% win rate with a little less bad luck. Even so, Phoenic landed a win rate right between Pegasis CH120 and Pegasis R145.
Quote:MSF-H Thief Phoenic [Crystal-Up] H145R2F vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II 230RB
Sagittario launched first on all launches. Prime R2F, slightly worn RB.
Phoenic: wins, 12/20 (All KO)
Sagittario: wins, 8/20 (2 KO, 6 OS)
MSF-H Thief Phoenic [Crystal-Up] H145R2F win rate: 60%
Pretty darn good; better than Pegasis, from the looks of things.
I'm impressed with Phoenic. It's recoil is a bit of a problem, but what it lacks for in recoil control, it makes up for in raw, explosive power. I'd definitely call it on par with Pegasis, at least. I think this might be my new favorite Attack Wheel.
Quote:MSF-H Shinobi Wyvang [Crystal-Up] R145R2F vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II 90RB
Sagittario launched first on all launches. Prime R2F, slightly worn RB.
Wyvang: wins, 11/20 (All KO)
Sagittario: wins, 9/20 (All OS)
MSF-H Shinobi Wyvang [Crystal-Up] R145R2F win rate: 55%
Definitely not as consistent as Pegasis or Phoenic, but still impressive nonetheless. To tell the truth, I was only expecting like 30-40% from this.
Quote:MSF-H Shinobi Wyvang [Crystal-Up] R145R2F vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II GB145RB
Sagittario launched first on all launches. Prime R2F, slightly worn RB.
Wyvang: wins, 12/20 (All KO)
Sagittario: wins, 8/20 (1 KO, 7 OS)
MSF-H Shinobi Wyvang [Crystal-Up] R145R2F win rate: 60%
Well whaddaya know; pretty great! Also better than I expected.
Quote:MSF-H Shinobi Wyvang [Crystal-Up] R145R2F vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II 230RB
Sagittario launched first on all launches. Prime R2F, slightly worn RB.
Wyvang: wins, 11/15 (All KO)
Sagittario: wins, 4/15 (All OS)
MSF-H Shinobi Wyvang [Crystal-Up] R145R2F win rate: 73%
Woah! I was not expecting that either; Wyvang went to town on this thing! I decided to stop at 15 rounds, because
1) it was already pretty clear that Wyvang was winning, and
2) a sizeable chunk of my Shinobi CW broke off in round 14 (not too big, but I thought it best to stop before I did any more damage).
Well, I am actually pretty impressed with Wyvang. I still don't really like the feel of it, but its obviously an applicable part.
Quote:Vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II 90RB
1st - Pegasis (68%)
2nd - Phoenic (65%)
3rd - Wyvang (55%)
Vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II GB145RB
1st - Wyvang (65%)
2nd - Draw between Phoenic (50%) and Pegasis (average of 50%)
Vs. MF-H Earth Sagittario II 230RB
1st - Wyvang (73%)
2nd - Phoenic (60%)
3rd - Pegasis (40%)
Overall average win percentages:
1st: - Wyvang (64%)
2nd - Phoenic (58%)
3rd - Pegasis (53%)
Now, I should mention a few things here that will shed light on some of the results.
An aggressive mold of Wyvang was used, so users who own the calm mold may get different results (I can't say how widely results will differ between molds, but I can pretty much guarantee the calm mold will not not do as well).
The Phoenic used was moderately worn. I'm not sure if this is such a big deal, but I do remember reading somewhere that Phoenic's smash decreases rapidly with wear. I haven't tested the theory, though, so don't quote me on that. Also,
the Pegasis I used was considerably worn. I am unsure how badly wear affects Pegasis' smash, but I thought it was worth noting the one I used had been through more than its fair share of testing.
That said, I'm actually kind of surprised at these numbers; I expected Pegasis and Phoenic to get more or less similar results (which they did), but the fact that I got better results with Wyvang than either of them shocked me pretty good.
Here's the problem; th!nk and I both compared Wyvang to Phoenic against mid-height Defense, but in
his testing, Phoenic topped Wyvang by a considerable amount. In my testing, it was the other way around. I suspect this may have had to do with the mold of Wyvang he was using, but since he's not around to answer any questions, I can't be sure. The other possibility is that Shinobi is far better on Wyvang than Gladiator, which sounds like a viable explanation (I believe Shinobi was tested and found to be better on Wyvang than Gladiator in the past), but I'm not sure the difference is large enough to fill such a wide gap in results.
I'm looking back at the Wyvang testing thread, and there are plenty of results, but absolutely no benchmarks, which makes them pretty much completely useless (ugh).
Either way, to sum it up: these results seem really strange to me, and that's coming from the guy who spent 3-4 hours gathering, recording and posting them.
On another note...
Libra B:D anyone?
Libra may not be suited for most stamina set-ups, but I'm still backing this one.
Kei Wrote:Figured it was time we finally get an initial list posted, so I've gone ahead and done that! My notes and a link to the thread can be found here: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Limited-...pid1254353
Over a year of Limited .. GOD BLESS!!
The Supreme One Wrote:Libra may not be suited for most stamina set-ups, but I'm still backing this one.
I don't mean to come off sounding rude, TSO, but any specific reason
why, though? We were already able to see that in mirror matches along with other Libra B:D tests that it wasn't really any good. TheBlackDragon did some W145WD testings, whereas it did successfully against Duo stamina in a mirror match.
(Jan. 26, 2015 3:34 AM)Shido Wrote: [ -> ]I don't mean to come off sounding rude, TSO, but any specific reason why, though? We were already able to see that in mirror matches along with other Libra B:D tests that it wasn't really any good. TheBlackDragon did some W145WD testings, whereas it did successfully against Duo stamina in a mirror match.
Why do I like Libra B:D? I've seen it do quite well in Limited and I've heard of this being the case in others' experiences, as well. There was a lot of talk about Dark_Mousy's success using Libra combinations (Libra B:D being one of them) at GBT2.
I know that plenty of W145WD tests have been done, but I haven't seen as much for B:D. Can you link me to the B:D ones?
Bakushin Leone 100RSF versus Thief Phoenic H145R2F
Both bottoms mint. Bakushin Leone launched first all matches.
Thief Phoenic: 8/30 (ALL KO) 27% Win Rate.
Bakushin Leone: 22/30 (16 OS, 6 KO) 73% Win Rate.
Phoenic did very poorly these matches. It had a lot of recoil, causing Bakushin to get KO's off of it; 5 of the 6 of them that happened were because of it. I did notice that it provided a bit of smash, but even still, it's not the smartest of options for attack when against LTDC; not saying attack should ever be the option against defense, though.
Earth Leone GB145RSF versus Thief Phoenic H145R2F
Both bottoms mint. Earth Leone launched first all matches.
Thief Phoenic: 5/30 (ALL KO) 17% Win Rate.
Earth Leone: 25/30 (22 OS, 3 KO) 83% Win Rate.
Note 2 of the 3 of Earth Leone were caused by Phoenic's recoil.
Libra 230RSF versus Thief Phoenic H145R2F
Both bottoms mint. Libra launched first all matches.
Thief Phoenic: 9/30 (ALL KO) 30% Win Rate.
Libra: 21/30 (19 OS, 2 KO) 70% Win Rate.
Note Libra's KO's weren't out of Phoenic's recoil.
Overall, Thief Phoenic-based attack definitely isn't the greatest; it's interesting, not tier-list worthy, though. May I ask, why do you like it so much, @[TheBlackDragon], like have you ever had tournament experience with one? I think you too can agree that it's not the best of choices, seeing as we have safer, already known-to-do-well options.
Honey Wrote:~•~big quote~•~
Wow, those tests were sad..
Thank you for them, Honey (and not in the wife and husband way
).
Random Combo Thoughts:
I was playing around yesterday with combos (and remember that my stadium is not a real Takara Tomy stadium) and I thought I would make a left spin variation of W145 WD: LW160 WD. I used Ronin Genbull/ Killerken LW160 WD vs Omega Kerbecs R145 RF/ R2F. The Killerken variation was better to stadium outs, but I don't have a MSF to try it out with... I think some testing may be able to determine possibly? Even if I could test in a legal stadium, my LW160 is real beat up from Omega...
(Jan. 29, 2015 10:12 PM)Honey Wrote: [ -> ]
Bakushin Leone 100RSF versus Thief Phoenic H145R2F
Both bottoms mint. Bakushin Leone launched first all matches.
Thief Phoenic: 8/30 (ALL KO) 27% Win Rate.
Bakushin Leone: 22/30 (16 OS, 6 KO) 73% Win Rate.
Phoenic did very poorly these matches. It had a lot of recoil, causing Bakushin to get KO's off of it; 5 of the 6 of them that happened were because of it. I did notice that it provided a bit of smash, but even still, it's not the smartest of options for attack when against LTDC; not saying attack should ever be the option against defense, though.
Earth Leone GB145RSF versus Thief Phoenic H145R2F
Both bottoms mint. Earth Leone launched first all matches.
Thief Phoenic: 5/30 (ALL KO) 17% Win Rate.
Earth Leone: 25/30 (22 OS, 3 KO) 83% Win Rate.
Note 2 of the 3 of Earth Leone were caused by Phoenic's recoil.
Libra 230RSF versus Thief Phoenic H145R2F
Both bottoms mint. Libra launched first all matches.
Thief Phoenic: 9/30 (ALL KO) 30% Win Rate.
Libra: 21/30 (19 OS, 2 KO) 70% Win Rate.
Note Libra's KO's weren't out of Phoenic's recoil.
Overall, Thief Phoenic-based attack definitely isn't the greatest; it's interesting, not tier-list worthy, though. May I ask, why do you like it so much, @[TheBlackDragon], like have you ever had tournament experience with one? I think you too can agree that it's not the best of choices, seeing as we have safer, already known-to-do-well options.
May I ask why you used a 2-sided track on a 3 sided wheel? Also, if I remember correctly wasn't the proper height for thief phoenic 130ish?
Time Wrote:May I ask why you used a 2-sided track on a 3 sided wheel? Also, if I remember correctly wasn't the proper height for thief phoenic 130ish?
That's what TBD proposed for being on the tier-list and one of the two track options Coach tested, so I figured I'd used that. I also don't own an R145, so tests with it aren't coming out of me.
What 130-based track in specific and where has it been tested with one, though? I wouldn't mind testing with one myself; I feel like a little of Phoenic's overall results related to H145 adding more recoil.
(Jan. 29, 2015 10:29 PM)Time Wrote: [ -> ] (Jan. 29, 2015 10:12 PM)Honey Wrote: [ -> ]
Bakushin Leone 100RSF versus Thief Phoenic H145R2F
Both bottoms mint. Bakushin Leone launched first all matches.
Thief Phoenic: 8/30 (ALL KO) 27% Win Rate.
Bakushin Leone: 22/30 (16 OS, 6 KO) 73% Win Rate.
Phoenic did very poorly these matches. It had a lot of recoil, causing Bakushin to get KO's off of it; 5 of the 6 of them that happened were because of it. I did notice that it provided a bit of smash, but even still, it's not the smartest of options for attack when against LTDC; not saying attack should ever be the option against defense, though.
Earth Leone GB145RSF versus Thief Phoenic H145R2F
Both bottoms mint. Earth Leone launched first all matches.
Thief Phoenic: 5/30 (ALL KO) 17% Win Rate.
Earth Leone: 25/30 (22 OS, 3 KO) 83% Win Rate.
Note 2 of the 3 of Earth Leone were caused by Phoenic's recoil.
Libra 230RSF versus Thief Phoenic H145R2F
Both bottoms mint. Libra launched first all matches.
Thief Phoenic: 9/30 (ALL KO) 30% Win Rate.
Libra: 21/30 (19 OS, 2 KO) 70% Win Rate.
Note Libra's KO's weren't out of Phoenic's recoil.
Overall, Thief Phoenic-based attack definitely isn't the greatest; it's interesting, not tier-list worthy, though. May I ask, why do you like it so much, @[TheBlackDragon], like have you ever had tournament experience with one? I think you too can agree that it's not the best of choices, seeing as we have safer, already known-to-do-well options.
May I ask why you used a 2-sided track on a 3 sided wheel? Also, if I remember correctly wasn't the proper height for thief phoenic 130ish?
It it was 145. (Specifically, like R145 or
H145, according to the Tier List proposal).
Not to go off-topic, but relating to Bakushin, have Bakushin RF tests actually been conducted by anyone? I believe we had Kaneki's opinion it (which shouldn't mean much because he didn't actually own the parts) and maybe some of his fakes with them that I don't know of, but, what else of it, realistically? I happen to like RF-based defense and don't see why it shouldn't be up there, but even so .. still?
(Jan. 29, 2015 10:26 PM)UW Officer Wrote: [ -> ]I was playing around yesterday with combos (and remember that my stadium is not a real Takara Tomy stadium) and I thought I would make a left spin variation of W145 WD: LW160 WD. I used Ronin Genbull/ Killerken LW160 WD vs Omega Kerbecs R145 RF/ R2F. The Killerken variation was better to stadium outs, but I don't have a MSF to try it out with... I think some testing may be able to determine possibly? Even if I could test in a legal stadium, my LW160 is real beat up from Omega...
If you have a PD, try using that instead of WD. I know Ingulit found that PD is the best tip for 160, but I'm not so sure about LW160. Maybe EWD instead, because most left-spinning things are going to be spin-equalizing?
(Jan. 29, 2015 11:03 PM)Honey Wrote: [ -> ]Not to go off-topic, but relating to Bakushin, have Bakushin RF tests actually been conducted by anyone? I believe we had Kaneki's opinion it (which shouldn't mean much because he didn't actually own the parts) and maybe some of his fakes with them that I don't know of, but, what else of it, realistically? I happen to like RF-based defense and don't see why it shouldn't be up there, but even so .. still?
I've never used Bakushin RF, but I can vouch for aggressive RSF in both testing and tournaments, so RF can't be that different. I don't personally know how strong your launch is/how aggressive your RSF is but if I have time this weekend I'll do comparative testing.
(Jan. 30, 2015 5:47 AM)Wombat Wrote: [ -> ] (Jan. 29, 2015 10:26 PM)UW Officer Wrote: [ -> ]I was playing around yesterday with combos (and remember that my stadium is not a real Takara Tomy stadium) and I thought I would make a left spin variation of W145 WD: LW160 WD. I used Ronin Genbull/ Killerken LW160 WD vs Omega Kerbecs R145 RF/ R2F. The Killerken variation was better to stadium outs, but I don't have a MSF to try it out with... I think some testing may be able to determine possibly? Even if I could test in a legal stadium, my LW160 is real beat up from Omega...
If you have a PD, try using that instead of WD. I know Ingulit found that PD is the best tip for 160, but I'm not so sure about LW160. Maybe EWD instead, because most left-spinning things are going to be spin-equalizing?
Yeah, if it was for Spin Steal EWD is the best option, for sure (over WD and PD).
(Jan. 29, 2015 10:12 PM)Honey Wrote: [ -> ]May I ask, why do you like it so much, TheBlackDragon, like have you ever had tournament experience with one? I think you too can agree that it's not the best of choices, seeing as we have safer, already known-to-do-well options.
I like it because I get awesome results with it. For me, at least, it's basically a slightly more volatile version of Pegasis. I would definitely say it's one of our best options; I'd use it in a heartbeat if I needed an Attack custom in a tournament (actually, no I wouldn't; I'd just use Omega, since it's worlds better than everything else, but Phoenic would probably be my first choice for right-spin Attack after that).
I think I can probably explain why our results were so different.
3 Things:
1. You didn't benchmark. It's quite possible you were just having a hard time launching; happens to me from time to time. Either way, with all the uncontrolable variables present, results in Attack testing can vary extremely wildly, and without a benchmark, its difficult to compare results.
2. You need to make sure H145 is lined up correctly. One of the two ways throws Phoenic way off-balance, but the other actually evens the weight out really well. If you had it on wrong, the results could have been skewed (I'm obviously not saying you did, but its a plausible explanation if you weren't aware that it needed to be oriented a specific way).
3. You didn't use MSF-H, which is extremely, extremely critical for the custom to work. Being a Zero-G Wheel, Phoenic is on the lighter side, and its contact point are pretty enormous and can cause a lot of recoil. This was probably the biggest problem.
I'd re-try it, benchmarking immediately before with Pegasis, making sure H145 is oriented correctly, and using MSF-H. You should get much more comparable numbers.
If that doesn't work, I have no clue what the problem is, but I'm fairly confident it should.
(Jan. 30, 2015 9:17 PM)Leone19 Wrote: [ -> ] (Jan. 30, 2015 5:47 AM)Wombat Wrote: [ -> ] (Jan. 29, 2015 10:26 PM)UW Officer Wrote: [ -> ]I was playing around yesterday with combos (and remember that my stadium is not a real Takara Tomy stadium) and I thought I would make a left spin variation of W145 WD: LW160 WD. I used Ronin Genbull/ Killerken LW160 WD vs Omega Kerbecs R145 RF/ R2F. The Killerken variation was better to stadium outs, but I don't have a MSF to try it out with... I think some testing may be able to determine possibly? Even if I could test in a legal stadium, my LW160 is real beat up from Omega...
If you have a PD, try using that instead of WD. I know Ingulit found that PD is the best tip for 160, but I'm not so sure about LW160. Maybe EWD instead, because most left-spinning things are going to be spin-equalizing?
Yeah, if it was for Spin Steal EWD is the best option, for sure (over WD and PD).
So, MSF Ronin Killerken/Genbull LW160 EWD would be a decent combo? The point for this combo is to be stamina based and for spin equalizing; left spin opposite of Earth ___ W145 WD. Now, for the big question (which is probably a no): possibly top tier?
(Jan. 31, 2015 12:16 AM)UW Officer Wrote: [ -> ] (Jan. 30, 2015 9:17 PM)Leone19 Wrote: [ -> ] (Jan. 30, 2015 5:47 AM)Wombat Wrote: [ -> ]If you have a PD, try using that instead of WD. I know Ingulit found that PD is the best tip for 160, but I'm not so sure about LW160. Maybe EWD instead, because most left-spinning things are going to be spin-equalizing?
Yeah, if it was for Spin Steal EWD is the best option, for sure (over WD and PD).
So, MSF Ronin Killerken/Genbull LW160 EWD would be a decent combo? The point for this combo is to be stamina based and for spin equalizing; left spin opposite of Earth ___ W145 WD. Now, for the big question (which is probably a no): possibly top tier?
I think the best options for Spin Steal are definitely Meteo and L-Drago Guardian/Destructor, as I don't have many good things to personally say about Ronin for Stamina/Spin Steal.
L-Drago Guardian/Destructor is pretty sucky for spin steal. Meteo is really your best bet for Limited, period. I've tried Dark Night for stamina before and I wasn't a huge fan, but my experience is Limited ("Oops... I Did It Again")
(Jan. 31, 2015 3:25 AM)The Supreme One Wrote: [ -> ]L-Drago Guardian/Destructor is pretty sucky for spin steal. Meteo is really your best bet for Limited, period. I've tried Dark Night for stamina before and I wasn't a huge fan, but my experience is Limited ("Oops... I Did It Again")
I had to.
It's not the worst alternative, I've had better experience with that than Ronin, personally.
In it's defense, it does pretty well as an alternative for Meteo F230.
(MSF/L)ronin zirago/killerken/genbull B: D chrystal up as good spin steal