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We actually probably could run the stats on that due to Kei's great work with recording tournament data :'D
That would be awesome Brad Smile

If Standard is indeed more popular (from the looks of it, it always has been) than Limited, then we can assume that it's because most Bladers don't like "limitations" on the parts they can use. If a certain part is really good, they're going to want to use it. And there's also teh argument that 4D is better than regular MFB (however I don't like the crazy mode changes), and many 4D wheels are banned... and also Zero-G... which is a thing. And now with Burst, MFB as a whole is being bypassed, doomed to suffer the same fate as past Beyblade generations. I, have always considered MFB to be "my generation," but only because I wasn't allowed to get any beys when G-Revolution was still happening, because I was "too young."

Now I know how you all feel Unhappy
Does anyone else think we should consider adding Scythe (Short Track) MF? @[Time] recently swept ICY BOTTOMS with it, and earlier this year at Before the Burst @[Angry Face] did the same (although the Limited tournament was unofficial). He also used it a few times in Enter: The Termibeytor and placed second.

I think it's definitely top-tier material, we just need some more testing to iron out which parts work best (aside from Scythe and MF).
@[Wombat] @[Angry Face] While I'm personally a huge fan of the combo, I think people may have the same concerns (that I personally think shouldn't prevent a combo from being added to the tier list) that have prevented GF combos from going up in Standard. That it takes a great deal of skill with to see outstanding results (in my opinion this is an argument for not banning it, not keeping it off the tier list). I used about five different launch techniques with it in the last tournament in order to go undefeated. Getting a truly powerful stall and playing with the launch height of a combo are not particularly easy for everyone.
A skill block shouldn't disallow something from being on the tier list. If that were the case, then attack wouldn't even be on the tier list. It's not like everyone can successfully do a sliding shoot.

I've never really tried Scythe MF as far as I can remember. What specific combinations were they? I could do some tests with it sometime soon.
He used MF-L Scythe Hades 90MF. @[Tri]
A bit of an older customisation, but...
I usually use the stamina-attack combo, Burn Leone 90 CS.
Stamina type until attacked, then goes in for the counter. Loses only to extreme attack/defence combos so its lasted me for several years. Had to replace the CS tip 3 times because it wore down so much. The wheel is left with marks where coloured wheels have struck it.
Test results: No opponent: 22.8 min before spinout
Vs. LDrago Blitz ver. : W/W/L/W
Vs. Twisted Tempo(Basalt Horogium)145WD: L/L/L
Vs. (Illegal on this thread) Full MF2 Libra 145 WB: W/L/W/W
Vs. Pegasis 85 XF: W/W/W
Do get back to me if I should add anything else. Thx!
(Jan. 15, 2016  7:08 AM)Cryostasis Wrote: [ -> ]A bit of an older customisation, but...
I usually use the stamina-attack combo, Burn Leone 90 CS.
Stamina type until attacked, then goes in for the counter. Loses only to extreme attack/defence combos so its lasted me for several years. Had to replace the CS tip 3 times because it wore down so much. The wheel is left with marks where coloured wheels have struck it.
Test results: No opponent: 22.8 min before spinout
Vs. LDrago Blitz ver. : W/W/L/W
Vs. Twisted Tempo(Basalt Horogium)145WD: L/L/L
Vs. (Illegal on this thread) Full MF2 Libra 145 WB: W/L/W/W
Vs. Pegasis 85 XF: W/W/W
Do get back to me if I should add anything else. Thx!

For testing to be "official" and generally accepted, it needs to be in a tournament-legal Stadium, and you need to do at least 20 rounds for each pairing (which is a lot Pinching_eyes_2 )

Burn + CS is definitely a good pairing, though; CS has good Defense and Attack power without being too bad at Stamina either, and Burn has great Stamina and some Attack as well.
Vulcan pegasus 2 90/CH120 R2F/RF/MF


What about Hyper?
Hyper pegasus 2 90/CH120/D125 R2F/RF

Or cosmic (hasbro) unicorno 2/ Kerbecs R145 RF


WHy isnt Vulcan on there?

Defense, Earth Kerbecs GB145 RSF

Stamina, Burn bull B:D
(Feb. 01, 2016  1:12 AM)Variares90R2F Wrote: [ -> ]Vulcan pegasus 2 90/CH120 R2F/RF/MF


What about Hyper?
Hyper pegasus 2 90/CH120/D125 R2F/RF

Or cosmic (hasbro) unicorno 2/ Kerbecs R145 RF


WHy isnt Vulcan on there?

Defense, Earth Kerbecs GB145 RSF

Stamina, Burn bull BGrin

Vulcan does have good upper attack, and it probably is deserving of a spot on the list, but I do not know why it isn't up there.

Cosmic has performed good from what I've seen and heard, but I haven't tested this myself, but it probably does deserve a spot up there. But again, I do not know why it isn't up there.

Hyper does not perform well, doesn't have good upper or smash attack, possibly because of how crowded the 'wings' are.

Earth _____ GB145 RSF is up there, but not with Kerbecs, probably because the other energy wheels listed better suit Earth's form.

Burn ____ B : D is up there already.

Was this post a list up your limited combos, your opinion on what is/should be top tier or a mix? Haha.
(Feb. 01, 2016  1:12 AM)Variares90R2F Wrote: [ -> ]Vulcan pegasus 2 90/CH120 R2F/RF/MF


What about Hyper?
Hyper pegasus 2 90/CH120/D125 R2F/RF

Or cosmic (hasbro) unicorno 2/ Kerbecs R145 RF


WHy isnt Vulcan on there?

Defense, Earth Kerbecs GB145 RSF

Stamina, Burn bull BGrin


yeah i think Vulcan should be there, maybe mods didn't noticed it [Libra is there too event though it's banned]


cosmic work ok from my experince [did't worked good for me atleast] idk exacly i don't have much experince with it
i have lots of combos that can beat most of top-tier in list i will test them soon Joyful_3
So i've been testing attack wheels recently, and Cosmic (Metal Fury) seems to preform really well, and i believe that this should be in the competitive combos list:

Cosmic (Metal Fury) (PegasusIII/LeoneII) (Lw105/90/85) (Rf/R2f)

also: Forbidden seems to have some success. Could anyone test this out for me?
(Feb. 01, 2016  11:04 PM)Flame~Capricorn Wrote: [ -> ]So I've been testing attack wheels recently, and Cosmic (Metal Fury) seems to perform really well, and I believe that this should be in the competitive combos list:

Cosmic (Metal Fury) (PegasusIII/LeoneII) (Lw105/90/85) (Rf/R2f)

also: Forbidden seems to have some success. Could anyone test this out for me?

if i'm not wrong GB145, CH120 and DF105 should work too

which stadium did you use ?
By the way, it's known that Metal Fury Cosmic and Vulcan are both good for Attack. Whether they are top-tier is debatable; Lightning, Pegasus, Wyvang, and Dark Knight are all very powerful, and Cosmic and Vulcan aren't quite up to their level. With Omega and Libra gone, though, it's possible that they could be included now that the bar is set lower for both Attack and Defense.
So I've read through the entire "Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion", "Ban List Discussion", and "Primer, Random Thoughts, and Q&A Thread" threads, the competitive customs have Omega listed in the attack section, and libra for various sections yet those wheels are banned.
I'm confused about Samurai Wyvang r145 rsf/rb being listed in the competitive customs under attack yet the Shinobi crystal wheel has been proved superior for Wyvang in every way through testing, as it fully exposes Wyvang's contact points.
Also, r145 was utilized in the orientation that prevents the high recoil point of the Wyvang wheel, its "chin" from being exposed, tr145 also does this but is larger, is there any particular reason that tr145 isn't on an option on the competitive custom list for wyvang?
Does anyone know tr145's weight?
(Mar. 05, 2016  5:37 PM)Corona Saber Wrote: [ -> ]So I've read through the entire "Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion", "Ban List Discussion", and "Primer, Random Thoughts, and Q&A Thread" threads, the competitive customs have Omega listed in the attack section, and libra for various sections yet those wheels are banned.
This is because the Competitive Customs list hasn't been updated since they were banned. I don't see why we can't just remove them from the list instead of needing to go through the process of updating EVERYTHING, though. The meta has shifted after they got banned, sure, but at the very least can we just remove Libra and Omega customs in the meantime?

(Mar. 05, 2016  5:37 PM)Corona Saber Wrote: [ -> ]I'm confused about Samurai Wyvang r145 rsf/rb being listed in the competitive customs under attack yet the Shinobi crystal wheel has been proved superior for Wyvang in every way through testing, as it fully exposes Wyvang's contact points.
Shinobi is better for raw Attack, sure, but Samurai isn't much worse, and it has excellent defensive properties due to its relatively high weight and smooth surface. I think that that combo is a more defensive Attack option, but I don't know that I would call it Balance or Anti-Attack.

(Mar. 05, 2016  5:37 PM)Corona Saber Wrote: [ -> ]Also, r145 was utilized in the orientation that prevents the high recoil point of the Wyvang wheel, its "chin" from being exposed, tr145 also does this but is larger, is there any particular reason that tr145 isn't on an option on the competitive custom list for wyvang?
Does anyone know tr145's weight?
Because R145 is made mostly of solid rubber, while TR145 is mostly thin plastic, R145 is much heavier. I believe it's the heaviest Limited-legal Track. Maximizing weight makes the Beyblade hit harder and reduces the effects of recoil, so R145 is generally the better choice.
R145 is 4.7g, and my TR145 is only 2.6g, if I remember correctly.
Awesome thank you for the insight, could you tell me what MF-H lightning l drago ch120rf and MSF-H Dark Knight wyvang r145rb are currently strong/weak against?
Also, Ch120 isn't very viable on shinobi/dark knight wyvang, due to wyvang's chin recoil right
(Mar. 05, 2016  7:54 PM)Corona Saber Wrote: [ -> ]Awesome thank you for the insight, could you tell me what MF-H lightning l drago ch120rf and MSF-H Dark Knight wyvang r145rb are currently strong/weak against?
Also, Ch120 isn't very viable on shinobi/dark knight wyvang, due to wyvang's chin recoil right

Well before I answer the question I want to say first off it's really nice to see a new user who reads through all the relevant material before posting so they can ask informed questions. I had to check your profile to make sure you weren't an older user who had just changed their username haha. Good on you for that.

MF-H Lightning L-Drago CH120RF is an Attack type, so it is strong against most Stamina types in Limited, including Tornado Stallers*. Short Stamina combos like Earth 90EWD may give it some issues due to CH120RF being a taller setup than 90EWD and Lightning's shape being designed more to hit upwards than downwards. Switching the Spin Track to 90 can help against these shorter combos, but then tall Stamina like TH170/230D setups will give you more trouble. Being Left Spin, it also fares better against RS based Defenders than Right Spin Attack types do, and is also completely invulnerable to Meteo's Spin Stealing capabilities.

As for its weaknesses, short Defense Types like Earth 85CS or Bakushin 90RSF shut it down pretty easily. Lightning is pretty light so heavier Attack types will generally be able to defeat it, though Attack vs. Attack matchups rely more on luck and skill so your results may vary. However, Anti-Attack Combos like Scythe CH120RF, which are designed to defeat Attack Types, will win against Lightning with far more consistency. A popular Balance Combo that is currently not on the Tier List, Flame 230CS, is able to avoid most Attack Types due to its height and Flame's shape, but switching your height to CH145 can give you more of a fighting chance. *Tornado Stallers can defeat Lightning in the hands of a skilled user, but for the most point you should expect to win the matchup.

MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang R145RB is capable of defeating most things on the Tier List actually. Dark Knight hits upward (Upper Smash) while Wyvang hits downward (Smash) and horizontally, and 145 (tall tip) gives it a pretty wide range of heights it can hit. It should KO pretty much any stationary Stamina Type, and isn't really bothered by tall Defense Combos because of Dark Knight.

The only Combos that would probably defeat it consistently are LTDCs, especially when they are Weak Launched, and Tornado Stallers. However if your launch is strong enough/your RB is aggressive enough you have a better chance of defeating the Tornado Staller. Due to Wyvang's and R145's recoil, Attack Types should be able to KO it with more consistency than they would another Attack Type due to RB having worse recoil control than RF.

CH120 is viable on Shinobi/Dark Knight Wyvang. Attackers generally use gimmicked Spin Tracks (like R145 on Pegasis) to put more weight and power behind their contact points provided the Track is aligned the correct way. However, with Smash Attackers, which are designed to hit downward, the Track can sometimes get in the way and obscure the contact points. CH120 would probably help more against LTDCs, while CH145 still gives you the full range of R145 at the tradeoff of some weight. CH120 can be kinda shaky though, which could possibly result in weaker hits than something like D125 would.



Also, with regards to the Tier List, I still think we should remove Omega and Libra from all Combos since they are banned.

Is anyone opposed to (MF-H/L) Flame Cancer/Cygnus/Hades TH170/230CS (/RSF?/RB?/MB?) being added to Balance? It's been popping up a lot at recent Limited tournaments and is a pretty solid answer to most of the LTAC you see running around nowadays.

Scythe Stallers need to be looked into more as well (I think they're qualified to go up there, we just need to iron out which parts are the best).

Based on something Mitsu said a few posts back about Bandid Phoenic 90RF a few posts back, does anyone else think Bandid should be looked into for the Wyvang H145/R145RSF/RB setups? It's two-sided just like Wyvang, and the Upper Smash it provides would probably be similar to that of Dark Knight or Shinobi.

With Omega (technically) gone, I also think some other Attack Wheels need more testing (Cosmic, Vulcan, Quetz, etc.) I can do Quetz if I have time one day maybe.
(Mar. 06, 2016  8:04 AM)Wombat Wrote: [ -> ]
(Mar. 05, 2016  7:54 PM)Corona Saber Wrote: [ -> ]Awesome thank you for the insight, could you tell me what MF-H lightning l drago ch120rf and MSF-H Dark Knight wyvang r145rb are currently strong/weak against?
Also, Ch120 isn't very viable on shinobi/dark knight wyvang, due to wyvang's chin recoil right

Well before I answer the question I want to say first off it's really nice to see a new user who reads through all the relevant material before posting so they can ask informed questions. I had to check your profile to make sure you weren't an older user who had just changed their username haha. Good on you for that.

MF-H Lightning L-Drago CH120RF is an Attack type, so it is strong against most Stamina types in Limited, including Tornado Stallers*. Short Stamina combos like Earth 90EWD may give it some issues due to CH120RF being a taller setup than 90EWD and Lightning's shape being designed more to hit upwards than downwards. Switching the Spin Track to 90 can help against these shorter combos, but then tall Stamina like TH170/230D setups will give you more trouble. Being Left Spin, it also fares better against RS based Defenders than Right Spin Attack types do, and is also completely invulnerable to Meteo's Spin Stealing capabilities.

As for its weaknesses, short Defense Types like Earth 85CS or Bakushin 90RSF shut it down pretty easily. Lightning is pretty light so heavier Attack types will generally be able to defeat it, though Attack vs. Attack matchups rely more on luck and skill so your results may vary. However, Anti-Attack Combos like Scythe CH120RF, which are designed to defeat Attack Types, will win against Lightning with far more consistency. A popular Balance Combo that is currently not on the Tier List, Flame 230CS, is able to avoid most Attack Types due to its height and Flame's shape, but switching your height to CH145 can give you more of a fighting chance. *Tornado Stallers can defeat Lightning in the hands of a skilled user, but for the most point you should expect to win the matchup.

MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang R145RB is capable of defeating most things on the Tier List actually. Dark Knight hits upward (Upper Smash) while Wyvang hits downward (Smash) and horizontally, and 145 (tall tip) gives it a pretty wide range of heights it can hit. It should KO pretty much any stationary Stamina Type, and isn't really bothered by tall Defense Combos because of Dark Knight.

The only Combos that would probably defeat it consistently are LTDCs, especially when they are Weak Launched, and Tornado Stallers. However if your launch is strong enough/your RB is aggressive enough you have a better chance of defeating the Tornado Staller. Due to Wyvang's and R145's recoil, Attack Types should be able to KO it with more consistency than they would another Attack Type due to RB having worse recoil control than RF.

CH120 is viable on Shinobi/Dark Knight Wyvang. Attackers generally use gimmicked Spin Tracks (like R145 on Pegasis) to put more weight and power behind their contact points provided the Track is aligned the correct way. However, with Smash Attackers, which are designed to hit downward, the Track can sometimes get in the way and obscure the contact points. CH120 would probably help more against LTDCs, while CH145 still gives you the full range of R145 at the tradeoff of some weight. CH120 can be kinda shaky though, which could possibly result in weaker hits than something like D125 would.



Also, with regards to the Tier List, I still think we should remove Omega and Libra from all Combos since they are banned.

Is anyone opposed to (MF-H/L) Flame Cancer/Cygnus/Hades TH170/230CS (/RSF?/RB?/MB?) being added to Balance? It's been popping up a lot at recent Limited tournaments and is a pretty solid answer to most of the LTAC you see running around nowadays.

Scythe Stallers need to be looked into more as well (I think they're qualified to go up there, we just need to iron out which parts are the best).

Based on something Mitsu said a few posts back about Bandid Phoenic 90RF a few posts back, does anyone else think Bandid should be looked into for the Wyvang H145/R145RSF/RB setups? It's two-sided just like Wyvang, and the Upper Smash it provides would probably be similar to that of Dark Knight or Shinobi.

With Omega (technically) gone, I also think some other Attack Wheels need more testing (Cosmic, Vulcan, Quetz, etc.) I can do Quetz if I have time one day maybe.

Thank you for your insight, I've actually been following WBO and the competitive customs list of MFBs since 08, just not having an account. lol.
I thought one of the main reasons r145 is the only listed track on wyvang's combos is because it is oriented so it blocks the chin of the wyvern, which is an extremely high recoil point.
I also thought that Lightning was found to do better on 145 instead of the LTAC's like 90 since upper attack was rarely ever exhibited in actual practice in MFB and its contact points favoring wheel on wheel hits.
I can definitely look at Pegasis and see how it would have a hard time against HTDC's, as its contact points are low and aim downward.
I'm just trying to figure out which top tier attack wheel sends defense beys the farthest distance with manageable recoil, with also having the highest consistent probability of it happening on each moment of contact. I'd like to think that it is wyvang since it is the only wheel on the list which utilizes the slower moving RB and RSFs. Because I'm trying to build the optimal attack bey in limited format for my little sis.
(Mar. 06, 2016  8:04 AM)Wombat Wrote: [ -> ]Well before I answer the question I want to say first off it's really nice to see a new user who reads through all the relevant material before posting so they can ask informed questions. I had to check your profile to make sure you weren't an older user who had just changed their username haha. Good on you for that.

MF-H Lightning L-Drago CH120RF is an Attack type, so it is strong against most Stamina types in Limited, including Tornado Stallers*. Short Stamina combos like Earth 90EWD may give it some issues due to CH120RF being a taller setup than 90EWD and Lightning's shape being designed more to hit upwards than downwards. Switching the Spin Track to 90 can help against these shorter combos, but then tall Stamina like TH170/230D setups will give you more trouble. Being Left Spin, it also fares better against RS based Defenders than Right Spin Attack types do, and is also completely invulnerable to Meteo's Spin Stealing capabilities.

As for its weaknesses, short Defense Types like Earth 85CS or Bakushin 90RSF shut it down pretty easily. Lightning is pretty light so heavier Attack types will generally be able to defeat it, though Attack vs. Attack matchups rely more on luck and skill so your results may vary. However, Anti-Attack Combos like Scythe CH120RF, which are designed to defeat Attack Types, will win against Lightning with far more consistency. A popular Balance Combo that is currently not on the Tier List, Flame 230CS, is able to avoid most Attack Types due to its height and Flame's shape, but switching your height to CH145 can give you more of a fighting chance. *Tornado Stallers can defeat Lightning in the hands of a skilled user, but for the most point you should expect to win the matchup.

MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang R145RB is capable of defeating most things on the Tier List actually. Dark Knight hits upward (Upper Smash) while Wyvang hits downward (Smash) and horizontally, and 145 (tall tip) gives it a pretty wide range of heights it can hit. It should KO pretty much any stationary Stamina Type, and isn't really bothered by tall Defense Combos because of Dark Knight.

The only Combos that would probably defeat it consistently are LTDCs, especially when they are Weak Launched, and Tornado Stallers. However if your launch is strong enough/your RB is aggressive enough you have a better chance of defeating the Tornado Staller. Due to Wyvang's and R145's recoil, Attack Types should be able to KO it with more consistency than they would another Attack Type due to RB having worse recoil control than RF.

CH120 is viable on Shinobi/Dark Knight Wyvang. Attackers generally use gimmicked Spin Tracks (like R145 on Pegasis) to put more weight and power behind their contact points provided the Track is aligned the correct way. However, with Smash Attackers, which are designed to hit downward, the Track can sometimes get in the way and obscure the contact points. CH120 would probably help more against LTDCs, while CH145 still gives you the full range of R145 at the tradeoff of some weight. CH120 can be kinda shaky though, which could possibly result in weaker hits than something like D125 would.



Also, with regards to the Tier List, I still think we should remove Omega and Libra from all Combos since they are banned.

Is anyone opposed to (MF-H/L) Flame Cancer/Cygnus/Hades TH170/230CS (/RSF?/RB?/MB?) being added to Balance? It's been popping up a lot at recent Limited tournaments and is a pretty solid answer to most of the LTAC you see running around nowadays.

Scythe Stallers need to be looked into more as well (I think they're qualified to go up there, we just need to iron out which parts are the best).

Based on something Mitsu said a few posts back about Bandid Phoenic 90RF a few posts back, does anyone else think Bandid should be looked into for the Wyvang H145/R145RSF/RB setups? It's two-sided just like Wyvang, and the Upper Smash it provides would probably be similar to that of Dark Knight or Shinobi.

With Omega (technically) gone, I also think some other Attack Wheels need more testing (Cosmic, Vulcan, Quetz, etc.) I can do Quetz if I have time one day maybe.
Just a few comments and then a question or two at the end.
LLDCH120RF should be able to deal with LTSCs pretty well, but you're right, it's really tricky and still a pretty solid pick against LLD at 120 (don't remember if 145 might actually help or not, but I seriously doubt it unless you're running really low track and on WD or something so scraping might be an issue).

Flame 230CS was for some reason never a problem for me with LLD at 120 or above, it's really light and even CS won't help you take some serious hits from LLD. The whole idea is that Flame allows you to not to make too much metal-metal contact and you're basically hitting 230 which is great, but yeah in my experience, it has always been way too light to consistently win.

CH120 shakiness - pretty sure this was just a Hasbro thing early on? Not sure if you are meaning looseness here. The takara ones lock in place quite well and I'm certain that future iterations of Hasbro CH120 without the cute translucency are sturdier.

As far as testing out Vulcan, Quetzalcoatl etc. rubber tips straight up eat them alive most of the time because they are the same spin direction, which is why we had to move towards more left spin combos until some really good right spin wheels came out. Don't have a Vulcan anymore but its good beyond just low track attack (AD145?). Don't see them being too viable, but maybe (I don't actually know which of the newer right spins are allowed, but maybe stuff from Vulcan onward aren't totally useless vs the likes of RS, RSF. I don't see RS on the list so I'm assuming that's banned out too?).

Questions:
Why is Gravity X RF not on this list? It's a very good wheel. Almost indispensable with its ability to change spin directions and fairly good Smash.

What, is Libra banned again? LOL that's not a good idea

Lightning H145RF? Not on there, it can manhandle low tracks, mid tracks, and high tracks. Or H145 in general.

How does Meteo LDrago CH120XF fare? Looking at this list I don't see it running into too many challenges, but I can test it later.

Why is there a turn back to low track attackers? Unless LTD/SC are super prevalent, 230 ends their viability completely. 120-145 are basically a necessity if you want an all-in-one combo.

Anyway, basically everything you said here was correct so nice job.

edit shout out to hato didnt check the list. gravity is gravRIPty
A major reason as to why we banned Libra was because it made certain combos that wouldn't be good with another Metal Wheel defensively better and more versatile. Dark_Mousy had won 3rd place at Grand Battle Tournament 2 exclusively using Libra combos; which generally had good stamina and defense as well.

The unfortunate thing about the ban is that MTDCs and HTDCs are now essentially useless, but we also have yet to experiment more with Jade. It definitely isn't as versatile as Libra and is what seems could be good for defense.

I'm not sure about H145 on Lightning. It has far less raw attack than R145 and adds so much recoil as well. I've never really had any good experience with it, personally.
(Mar. 07, 2016  2:02 AM)Mitsu Wrote: [ -> ]A major reason as to why we banned Libra was because it made certain combos that wouldn't be good with another Metal Wheel defensively better and more versatile. Dark_Mousy had won 3rd place at Grand Battle Tournament 2 exclusively using Libra combos; which generally had good stamina and defense as well.

The unfortunate thing about the ban is that MTDCs and HTDCs are now essentially useless, but we also have yet to experiment more with Jade. It definitely isn't as versatile as Libra and is what seems could be good for defense.

I'm not sure about H145 on Lightning. It has far less raw attack than R145 and adds so much recoil as well. I've never really had any good experience with it, personally.

I guess if it's a problem..okay sure, can't really argue there. howie going in with libra aylmao

Thought Jade was really recoil-y? Don't have it.
Maybe its a matter of preference because I feel the exact opposite way. I'll go ahead right now and test LLD R145. Specifically against LTDCs, though, H145 is really good in my experience. Recoil might be an issue, but idk mint RFs always seemed to manage that for me well. Only other problem is the weight, its really not that heavy a combo, pretty much glass cannon.

Has it been considered to rather than outright ban Libra, limit its possible combos? If you relegate it to only be used at mid-heights that could be OK. Tournament wise it could get kind of iffy, yea, but maybe that's a worthwhile trade-off? no clue on the feasibility.

Edit:
Tested out LLD145 against LTDC and it was pretty pitiful (30-40%WR). It of course did a better job vs Libra (spooky banned) but yea Earth takes the hits well. Would really appreciate it if someone could test out LLD H145RF because I feel like it'll do a fair bit better. R145 always felt kinda yuck on left spinners to me but idk.
Jade gets obliterated by Attack unless it's on something really short. Its upper surface is very smooth, but it has an incredibly recoily underside. On 85, though, it's very strong Defense.

The current meta is not very friendly towards mid-height anything because LTAC destroys anything mid-height (Dark Knight being the scariest, with insane Upper Attack or whatever term we're calling it now), and mid-height Attack struggles against low-track Defense. As a result, you see this split between extremely tall Stamina, extremely short Defense, and usually short Attack, though CH120/__145 is still pretty common.

The meta is pretty much
Mid < Short < Tall < Mid

tbh I think people are scared to play mid-height because LTAC is so popular, so the meta just kind of squeezes into the extreme ends of the available heights to avoid Attack.


I'm going to revisit Vulcan, since I had some success with it even when Libra was around. Now that Omega isn't hogging the spotlight in the Attack department, it might be more useful.
(Mar. 07, 2016  12:13 AM)Corona Saber Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you for your insight, I've actually been following WBO and the competitive customs list of MFBs since 08, just not having an account. lol.
I thought one of the main reasons r145 is the only listed track on wyvang's combos is because it is oriented so it blocks the chin of the wyvern, which is an extremely high recoil point.
I also thought that Lightning was found to do better on 145 instead of the LTAC's like 90 since upper attack was rarely ever exhibited in actual practice in MFB and its contact points favoring wheel on wheel hits.
I can definitely look at Pegasis and see how it would have a hard time against HTDC's, as its contact points are low and aim downward.
I'm just trying to figure out which top tier attack wheel sends defense beys the farthest distance with manageable recoil, with also having the highest consistent probability of it happening on each moment of contact. I'd like to think that it is wyvang since it is the only wheel on the list which utilizes the slower moving RB and RSFs. Because I'm trying to build the optimal attack bey in limited format for my little sis.

While Wyvang's chin is an extremely high recoil point, it is also the part of the Chrome Wheel that hits the hardest. Covering it up will reduce the amount of recoil you take, but it's a tradeoff for the explosive Attack power Wyvang is well known for.

Lightning on 145 isn't much of a good option nowadays unless you're positive your opponent will use something tall. While it's true that Upper Attack doesn't exist in MFB (because the Wheels are made of metal instead of plastic) Lightning and several other Wheels do have a very similar feature called Upper Smash (kind of an oxymoron but I didn't come up with the term).

Given the characteristics you described I agree that MSF-H Dark Knight/Shinobi/Samurai Wyvang (Crystal Up) H145/R145/maybe CH120 RSF/RB would be the best combo for the situation.

(Mar. 07, 2016  1:27 AM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]Flame 230CS was for some reason never a problem for me with LLD at 120 or above, it's really light and even CS won't help you take some serious hits from LLD. The whole idea is that Flame allows you to not to make too much metal-metal contact and you're basically hitting 230 which is great, but yeah in my experience, it has always been way too light to consistently win.
...
Why is there a turn back to low track attackers? Unless LTD/SC are super prevalent, 230 ends their viability completely. 120-145 are basically a necessity if you want an all-in-one combo.

The reason Flame 230CS is so popular right now is a reaction to the turn back to LTAC. Sometime before Halloween last year I pointed a similar combo out to Kei and LMAO and told them it would probably do well in the LTAC environment (Jade CH120RB was also popular then, and Jade's smooth upperside isn't too great at handling things taller than itself). Tall Flame variants ended up being pretty prevalent at that tournament, most of which were developments independent of what I told Kei and LMAO.

One of the reason LTACs are so popular is because of Dark Knight, which as Cake said has amazing Upper Smash and an insane amount of reach. In the final match of my last tournament, I lost to Dark Knight 85MF using Flame 230CS because I underestimated just how high the crystal notch on top of it can reach, and in some of my other tests in this thread it destroyed a Scythe HTDC as well.

(Mar. 07, 2016  1:27 AM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]CH120 shakiness - pretty sure this was just a Hasbro thing early on? Not sure if you are meaning looseness here. The takara ones lock in place quite well and I'm certain that future iterations of Hasbro CH120 without the cute translucency are sturdier.

I only have one CH120 which is kinda shaky/loose, and it's from the Hasbro Dark Gasher, so this may be a true fact. I would suspect it's more of a part-to-part variation rather than being exclusive to a certain brand though (since CH120 only has 1 mold).

(Mar. 07, 2016  1:27 AM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]As far as testing out Vulcan, Quetzalcoatl etc. rubber tips straight up eat them alive most of the time because they are the same spin direction, which is why we had to move towards more left spin combos until some really good right spin wheels came out. Don't have a Vulcan anymore but its good beyond just low track attack (AD145?). Don't see them being too viable, but maybe (I don't actually know which of the newer right spins are allowed, but maybe stuff from Vulcan onward aren't totally useless vs the likes of RS, RSF. I don't see RS on the list so I'm assuming that's banned out too?).

I haven't tested Vulcan seriously yet (don't wanna scratch up the paint too badly) but I've played around with Quetz a lot and its Upper Smash can be pretty effective provided you get the height matchup correct. It's able to lift opponents off the ground using its slopes, which (as the anime has taught us all) nullifies whatever friction a rubber defense Tip has with the ground. Back when Libra was legal I could beat MF-H Libra R145RB fairly consistently using MF-H Quetzalcoatl 90RF in testing. I know @[Dual] has used Vulcan MF successfully, so it might be useful as a hybrid Attacker/Tornado Staller.

(Mar. 07, 2016  1:27 AM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]Lightning H145RF? Not on there, it can manhandle low tracks, mid tracks, and high tracks. Or H145 in general.

Similarly to what Mitsu said it may be due to people simply preferring R145 over H145 (or maybe because of 3 sided synergy). Don't think I've tried H145 extensively but I've used TR145 and it gives Lightning some LAD against opposite spin opponents.

(Mar. 07, 2016  1:27 AM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]How does Meteo LDrago CH120XF fare? Looking at this list I don't see it running into too many challenges, but I can test it later.

I'm glad you mentioned it, since it's gotten a slight upgrade using some of the newer parts. I've tried and failed on multiple occasions to get other people to use it, and while I like it the prevalence of Dark Knight makes it too risky of a choice to be considered competitive, especially if you have a habit of picking the wrong side of the ridge to launch along.

By the way Dan are you going to be staying around or are you just dropping in for a bit? Either way it's nice to see one of the older members come back to posting actively again.
Regarding my use of Vulcan MF, unless my memory fails me, I believe I only used it in one match, with the combo being Vulcan Gemios(?) 100MF. Now, I did win that match, but I do not remember against what. I haven't found massive success with it, however, seeing as I've only used it once.

It could have potential though, and I could test if needed.
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