Jun. 23, 2016 8:38 AM
I personally think that Gravity should be unbanned, I was against it's ban to begin with, I feel that the part is outclassed by better attack wheels and being able to spin either direction is not as good as it sounds.
(Jun. 25, 2016 5:16 PM)agumonx7 Wrote: [ -> ]Gravity shouldn't be unbanned because there is only one reverse rotating bey that may exist in this world.
(Jul. 02, 2016 1:28 PM)1234beyblade Wrote: [ -> ]Flame Up The Summer Spirit - MFB Limited
Saturday, June 25th, 2016 | Toronto, Ontario
1st Kei
MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang 85CS
(Jul. 02, 2016 11:49 PM)Cake Wrote: [ -> ]Jade LTDC counters Dark Knight LTAC very effectively. I haven't tried Dark Knight on CS yet, but as soon as I get home from vacation I will definitely test it out.
(Jul. 02, 2016 10:58 PM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ](Jul. 02, 2016 1:28 PM)1234beyblade Wrote: [ -> ]Flame Up The Summer Spirit - MFB Limited
Saturday, June 25th, 2016 | Toronto, Ontario
1st Kei
MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang 85CS
This combo is so overpowered. I know people have been talking about unbanning Gravity, but if anything, we should be talking about banning Dark Knight for Limited.
I went 10-2 during this event and 7-1 with MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang 85CS (my only loss was an unlucky one to LMAO's MF Earth Cancer B:D where he got a ton of wall saves and I lost 3-2). And even though it's on 85, it amazingly can still reach and KO Flame 230CS.
Wombat had mentioned recently in the Winning Combinations thread that low track Bakushin defense was the best way to beat low track Dark Knight attack, but I was able to handle 1234beyblade's low track Bakushin RSF quite well both by KO and OS.
Does anyone have any convincing arguments for not banning Dark Knight? It's been a hugely dominant presence in the metagame at least since the Limited Ban List v1.4 was announced and has in my opinion contributed to the lowered amount of variety seen among Attack types. It's very powerful, versatile (due to its ability to be combined with any Chrome Wheel), and the fact that it is left-spin in a largely right-spin metagame makes it even more of a threat than any of the right-spin Crystal Wheels.
If we were to ban it, I can see Lightning and many other right-spin Attack Wheels becoming viable again. Right now there's very little incentive to use anything other than Dark Knight + Girago/Wyvang/etc. I'd also feel better about using Defense because there is less chance of an Attack type like Dark Knight Girago or Wyvang being able to actually OS you.
(Jul. 03, 2016 12:00 AM)1234beyblade Wrote: [ -> ](Jul. 02, 2016 11:49 PM)Cake Wrote: [ -> ]Jade LTDC counters Dark Knight LTAC very effectively. I haven't tried Dark Knight on CS yet, but as soon as I get home from vacation I will definitely test it out.
Same situation as Obelisk Oin tho, it beats Odin and that's it, pretty sure that's the same situation with Jade only being able to beat Dark Knight.
(Jul. 03, 2016 12:00 AM)1234beyblade Wrote: [ -> ](Jul. 02, 2016 11:49 PM)Cake Wrote: [ -> ]Jade LTDC counters Dark Knight LTAC very effectively. I haven't tried Dark Knight on CS yet, but as soon as I get home from vacation I will definitely test it out.
Same situation as Obelisk Oin tho, it beats Odin and that's it, pretty sure that's the same situation with Jade only being able to beat Dark Knight.
(Jul. 03, 2016 7:28 AM)Xstarhero Wrote: [ -> ]People can you say phantom orion's track banned???
(Jul. 03, 2016 7:57 AM)Xstarhero Wrote: [ -> ]i dont want it to get banned its my faviorite
(Jul. 03, 2016 5:34 PM)Mitsu Wrote: [ -> ]Personally, I've never found Dark Knight on an 85 to a 105 height capable of knocking out 230 combos consistently. I would always have to change to CH120 or D125 to do so. In any case, I'm on board with the ban. It'll definitely give other attack wheels the chances they didn't get. I'm ready for some Vulcan RSF. :p
(Jul. 03, 2016 3:37 AM)Wombat Wrote: [ -> ]After seeing this post I tried this combo vs MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF, and I got completely opposite results from you, even using a variety of different CS wear conditions. I didn't mark them down in an actual testing format, but my results were pretty one-sided in Bakushin's favor and I did probably around 35ish rounds total. Keep in mind I have the passive (3mm) Wyvang which has been worn down over 3 1/2 years, so if you had a fresh aggressive (4mm) one I bet it would perform a lot better than mine did. I also weak launched Bakushin in all of these, and it was damn near immovable.
Using my super worn down CS (I wore down the rubber so the plastic was exposed long ago, and have used it so much the plastic has worn down and made it semi-aggressive again), I didn't get any KOs whatsoever, and Bakushin was able to consistently outspin it by a good 5-6 rotations.
Using my CS which is basically a Rubber HF, I still didn't get any KOs (Bakushin wall saved once), and got one outspin. This CS was able to tie Bakushin a few times too, probably due to the greater surface area compared to my other CSs.
Using my purple CS which is worn, but not as much as the first one (still pretty aggressive if you launch it hard enough) I still didn't get any KOs or OSes. Bakushin actually recoil KOed Wyvang a few times, and there was one round where there was a recoil KO/Wall Save (I actually have this on video if someone wants me to post it, but the lighting in my room sucks).
EDIT: Here are pictures of the CSes in question.
[Image: NFvhyMF.jpg] [Image: 9cgGBGw.jpg]
I think that you were able to beat 1234beyblade's Bakushin LTDC yesterday was because knowing him, he probably didn't weak launch during your battle (weak launching helps exponentially against the Wyvang variant, against Girago it's safer to launch at normal/high power) and he also just said he was using RS and not RSF. RS has long been known to suck against opposite-spin Attack due its low surface area and awful balance, so I can easily see DK Wyvang outspinning it on CS if it doesn't KO it/smash it into the ground before then. Maybe I should have been a bit more specific in the post where I mentioned Bakushin, haha. There's a reason why RS was so unpopular for Defense compared to CS upon its release (besides bad memories of Defense Mode Seaborg/Advance Guardian RCs being carp): Left Spin Attack was able to beat it consistently through KO and OS, and Right Spin Attack could OS it by Tornado Stalling, neither of which are problems CS usually faces.
(Jul. 03, 2016 3:37 AM)Wombat Wrote: [ -> ]I also tested a few LTAC vs MSF-H DK Wyvang 85CS and for the most part, they won pretty handily. MF-H LLD 90RF was able to KO it fairly consistently (which probably isn't saying much, seeing as how much of a coin toss Attack vs Attack generally is), and being Left spin, also outspun it since DK Wyvang has pretty awful balance (didn't test vs. the Girago variant, so that might be able to OS, but I imagine a Girago/CS combo loses out on a lot of KOing power so I don't know how useful it would be in context). MF-H Quetzalcoatl 85RF also matches up against Dark Knight LTAC incredibly well; it is able to use its slopes to exploit the raised nature of Zero-G Wheels and scoop them out pretty consistently (especially if you use the Super Secret Sauce Launch Technique™). Admittedly it fares worse against Wyvang than it does against Girago though.
(Jul. 03, 2016 3:37 AM)Wombat Wrote: [ -> ]Being an Attack type itself, Dark Knight LTAC takes some skill to use, which is another reason why I would be hesitant to ban it. Using CS/RSF/RB/RS makes it easier to control/require "less skill", but you trade off mobility and Attack power and are generally forced to use the recoil-laden Wyvang, who also has poor Stamina, to overcompensate (making you easy prey for opposing Attack types and Tornado Stallers).
(Jul. 03, 2016 3:37 AM)Wombat Wrote: [ -> ]Something else I would also like to point out is that while that combo might do well in Toronto Flame HTSC/Earth LTSC meta, it might not always succeed elsewhere. And while success in one region vs. another isn't grounds for whether a part gets banned or not, we need to recognize that Toronto's meta does not represent the meta of every active region.
(Jul. 03, 2016 3:37 AM)Wombat Wrote: [ -> ]While my point of view might disagree with yours, I still think I make a good, convincing argument on why Dark Knight should remain legal. *horrible memories of Libra ban intensify* It's good, but I don't think it is overcentralizing or overpowered, and I think a ban would be an overreaction.
(Jul. 03, 2016 5:25 PM)Cake Wrote: [ -> ]My knee-jerk reaction to this is to immediately launch into a debate about how I think Jade is great and Dark Knight isn't game breaking, but after taking some time to think it over, I don't think it really matters whether Dark Knight is broken or if it does have viable counters.
Limited without Dark Knight is simply a better game; even though there is something of a stable type triangle with Dark Knight, that triangle and the meta at large is largely shaped by the threat that Dark Knight poses. It destroys even the most defensive mid-height opponents, threatens super-tall Stamina, and has the potential to spin-steal off of its main weakness, LTDC (which isn't usually enough to earn a win, but every bit helps).
With Dark Knight banned, as Kei said, it opens up the meta to a far wider assortment of Attack types, and reduces the threat to mid-height combos. I don't think there is a different combo that will suddenly take over in Dark Knight's absence; although Jade and Bakushin are highly effective Defense types, they don't have the Stamina or Attack to be threatening the way Libra was. If anything, Flame 230 gets my vote for next "irritating, meta-changing, overused" combo, but it's easily KOed with mid-height Upper Attack combos (which are at best a risky niche choice with Dark Knight around). No other Attack part has the kind of reach that Dark Knight has, so choosing the right Track should become more important, instead of just going low DK and KOing any height. Attackers on mid-height Tracks should lose very consistently to LTDC, and Attackers on lower Tracks won't be able to reach 230 with the kind of power Dark Knight offers.
TL;DR we kill the Batman to give everyone else a chance
Quote:Lighting CH120RB