World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc.

(Jan. 08, 2014  3:32 AM)" L Wrote: [ -> ]I don't want to live a life where Gravity comes up in every tornament. TBH, I'm getting really, really, annoyed at this. You've just broke me, I'm out, you guys decide on Gravity. It's not my wheel, nor my format. You guys just keep chating. I don't want anything else to do with Gravity. You really take no notice to my posts? Just wait for the list. See ya.

Kind regards~ " L "

"L", I think you're overreacting.

The point of this topic is to discuss possible parts to be banned, which was exactly what we were doing.

Just because a part is being disagreed upon, doesn't mean we hate each other or people are overlooking posts. We're simply debating the topic and giving opinions. Even though I am personally not the hugest Gravity in Limited fan, both TheBlackDragon and Tri do bring up valid points.

As Tri said, its not our decision in the long run.

" L ", chill dude, it's just one wheel and it can be beaten. The best way to convince people to use other attack types is to show them that they work - mainly the area of tourneygoers, use something else that works, etc etc.

I'm still pretty ambivalent about banning the thing, would rather wait and see what effect RB has on the format with it around than without, but eh, Kei's post in the advanced forum does strike a chord.

(Jan. 08, 2014  12:06 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: [ -> ]@th!nk's huge post: Well (and here comes another crazy comment), I actually don't find Scythe that good for Defense at all.

Yup, I said it. I did some testing against Cosmic, Gravity and Lightning, and Earth made it look like trash. Like, seriously. I had a Gravity Attack type launch it across the room like 4 times in a row, and then, when I was getting up to reach for Scythe, and did a double take, and lo and behold I realized that Gravity had been in Defense mode the whole time. I really don't know how people are getting those kinds of results. Earth was getting win rate 50% higher against all my attackers consistently (and that was with me actually attempting to give Scythe an advantage). I really don't see the potential at all.

As for Scythe CH120RF (which I assume is the combo you are saying is broken), have any of you guys tried lower track combos against it? Earth/Libra LTDC and LTSC will stomp on its grave. Like, every time. By a MILE. There might be something wrong with my Scythe, because I am definitely not getting ban-worthy results on any setup. :\

Yes, it can OS or KO basically all of them except MF-H Libra 85RF, using its underside rim usually. CS is a problem but low track CS is only good for OSing defense really.

Anyway, could you send me some pictures of the top and bottom of your scythe, as high resolution as you can manage? A side-on next to a TT Scythe would be good, too. I keep hearing two completely opposite things about one wheel (and seeing the opposite to you) and I want to look into this.

Weak Launching against Lighting: Lightning handles weak launching better than other left spin attack types, its ability to steal spin while attacking has always been at least its second biggest attribute (after it's awesome power). However, no matter what track it uses, it still generally fails to cover *something* on the defensive spectrum after weak launching, usually Bakushin.

For reference, my left spin attack launch is a very tight, fast flower pattern (right is a little looser and less consistent). Dunno what this "wide sweeping" thing y'all keep talking about is, but I strongly doubt it'd work as well.

Quote:Yes, I own the Attack version of Perseus, and I truly and honestly find Lighting, Cosmic, and Beat all more effective overall in terms of pure smash. That's just my personal experience. Even if it's about even with Lightning for most people, I can be just about 100% sure that Cosmic will undoubtedly make it look wimpy for anyone who tries it. Probably by a very notable amount.

Got Beat working today on GB145, Gravity Perseus (ATK) R145 is still noticeably more powerful. Lightning can hit things further than gravity but I suspect this is just due to the nature of its attack, a slightly upward smash. If you look at what Kei said in the advanced forums, you'll see his take on cosmic (good, but no gravity).

I know it's not up to us. We have plenty of other attack wheels with tests, but no one looks at them. If Gravity was gone... Other attack wheels would be noticed. Here's what I gathered:

People who want it banned:
Kei
" L "
Leone19 (I think)

Who doesn't want it banned:
TheBlackDragon
Tri
Stamina.

Forgive me if I forgot anyone. I think Gravity should be banned, for the use of other attack wheels. Though, like we're saying, it's not up to us.

: IIRC Ingulit was getting the same results as me using Scythe. He said it wasn't nearly ban-worhty.

I got an OS with Earth RSF 100% of the time, and by quite a wide margin. I tried stalling and banking, but neither worked. Go figure...

As for Beat and Cosmic compared to Gravity, I find both to be far better for pure smash. IDK how you guys are getting those results.

This is quite discouraging, having multiple people with different results. That makes the problem much more difficult. One variable that I forgot to mention is that I am not using any Metal Faces for any of this. That's likely the cause of the weird Scythe results, but I have extensively tested Gravity comparing it to Cosmic, Beat and Lighting previously with Metal Faces, and they all hit quite a bit harder from my experience.

I honestly think it's just the mentality right now. I'll bet that if we wait a while, more things will start to pop up. I really don't think Gravity Attack types are ban-worthy. That's my final statement. In fact, I would probably sooner use a Lightning Attack type than a Gravity one. Same thing with Cosmic. I just don't see the insane smash attack you guys are talking about. :\

(Jan. 08, 2014  2:33 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: [ -> ]: IIRC Ingulit was getting the same results as me using Scythe. He said it wasn't nearly ban-worhty.

I got an OS with Earth RSF 100% of the time, and by quite a wide margin. I tried stalling and banking, but neither worked. Go figure...

As for Beat and Cosmic compared to Gravity, I find both to be far better for pure smash. IDK how you guys are getting those results.

This is quite discouraging, having multiple people with different results. That makes the problem much more difficult. One variable that I forgot to mention is that I am not using any Metal Faces for any of this. That's likely the cause of the weird Scythe results, but I have extensively tested Gravity comparing it to Cosmic, Beat and Lighting previously with Metal Faces, and they all hit quite a bit harder from my experience.

I honestly think it's just the mentality right now. I'll bet that if we wait a while, more things will start to pop up. I really don't think Gravity Attack types are ban-worthy. That's my final statement. In fact, I would probably sooner use a Lightning Attack type than a Gravity one. Same thing with Cosmic. I just don't see the insane smash attack you guys are talking about. :\

Gravity doesn't have insane smash, but a beyblade landing a foot outside the stadium is no less of a KO than one hitting someone standing 10 metres away in the face. Gravity has enough power to KO nearly everything, and its shape lets it do a good job against almost everything there is on a single setup, whereas almost every other attack wheel/combo gets completely wrecked by defense combos of a particular height, and those that don't all have much more recoil, at least the ones I've tried. For the rest, the fact Left Spin is much more forgiving than Right Spin is no small matter for tournament use.

I do expect gravity usage to go down a little, but at the same time, a format where one wheel is so dominant is not going to leave the best impression on new players... As I said, despite my arguments I'm somewhat torn if only because of RB's looming introduction, though having played around with MSF-H Thief Phoenic H145LRF some more I'm less worried than I was earlier today about how much of a hit gravity's removal will be to attack.

Oh and as for Scythe, yes I'm well aware that you and Ingulit are seeing things completely differently to myself and " L ", but it doesn't make the tests any less valid - there's no doubt in my mind that my metal fury scythe wheel at least is so obnoxiously powerful it makes a complete joke out of the entire format, so that's why I asked for pictures of yours, to compare to mine. Would bug Ingulit about it but he's busy enough having to catch up with all the work we all got done in his absence and from what I gather his is rather worn too.

As for people getting different results, it has traditionally been a fairly common occurrence with MFB, though most of the time there was a clear majority and also it was rarely if ever a case where some people found a wheel gamebreaking while others didn't, generally just people finding something good and others finding it not good.

I'm going to state my overall opinion here:

On the subject of Gravity, I oppose its ban. In my honest opinion, given 1) the fact that it truly is not the highest powered Attack wheel in the format, 2) the fact that, in a tournament situation and with an average launch, it will lose consistently to LTDC, 3) the fact that RF Defense can easily take it out, and 4) the fact that RB is being reintroduced, that Gravity Attack types are not unhealthy for this format. They work consistently against MTDC, and HTDC, both of which Lightning and Beat cover. Regardless of your 50-60% wins rates against Earth LTDC ( I would like to note that Bakushin can easily take it out), you will not win in a tournament scenario without an extreme degree of luck.

Overall, it is not really much more effective than other options. I would just as soon use Lightning, Beat, Cosmic, Phoenic or Omega as I would use Gravity.

Gravity spin-equalizers, though they are effective, are not unhealthy for the format in my opinion. Gravity EWD is easily countered with an Attack type, no matter how weak you launch it. The idea that these customs choke the use of other Stamina Metal Wheels could be true, or it could not. The fact is, in a match with Earth 85EWD vs. Gravity 85EWD, Earth will most likely win regardless of what spin direction the opponent uses. Its weight distribution is quite undesirable for a spin stealer in and of itself, and I honestly don't think conventional Stamina will become unviable.

Again, depending on the situation, I would definitely use other competitive Stamina wheels over Gravity it I had the option. I just really don't think the Stamina meta will take a beating from Gravity. Just because it's good isn't a reason to ilegalize it. As long as it isn't dominating/choking the use of other wheels (which is hasn't yet), then IMO we should just leave it alone.

Again, we've only had like, what, 5 limited tournaments? All in different places? So I could definitely be wrong, or I could be right. This is one of those subjects that's a little cloudy, and we just have to wait and see what happens before we take action.

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Overall, I don't think Gravity is overpowered when used with conventional Attack/Stamina customs. If tournaments become extremely Gravity-prevalent, then we need to determine something. We need to figure out if it's actually Gravity's competitive application, and the players feel compelled to use it out of fear, or if it's simply the mindset/preference of the players.

If everyone simply likes Gravity and enjoys using it (which was the cause if its use in NC), then we can't change that. They'll keep using Gravity as long as they enjoy using Gravity. However, if the root of the problem is purely competitive, then something needs to be done.

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On the subject of Gravity F230/T125 CF/GCF, I feel that both are not only unhealthy for the format, but utterly broken. There are very few, if any, competitive counters in this format for either of the two. They can win against just about everything consistently. Something needs to be done about these two customs.

As for F230, there are multiple options for fixing the problem. We could ban Gravity, we could ban F230, or we could ban something else specific, that I'll introduce soon (most you probably know anyway).

The problem with banning Gravity is, if you're like me and enjoy using/playing in tournaments with conventional Gravity Attack/Stamina types, banning Gravity destroys those customs as well, and makes for a much less complicated/versatile format in my humble opinion. If you're in favor of banning Gravity Attack/Stamina, though, this would be the perfect option. End result: -Conventional Gravity combos, -Gravity F230CF/GCF, - Gravity T125GCF, +Meteo F230CF/GCF <- (this will come in later)

The second option is to ban F230. This would present a couple problems. 1) Meteo F230 would become illegal. Meteo's Stamina is so horrendous, and it's so absurdly easy to KO, that honestly, form my experience, Meteo F230CF/GCF is quite harmless to the format, and makes for quite a bit more interesting matches. 2) The second problem here, is that we don't get rid of Gravity T125GCF. This only rids us of the F230 combinations. End result: +Conventional Gravity combos, -Gravity F230CF/GCF, -Meteo F230CF/GCF, +Gravity T125GCF

The third option, which I'm going to mention now, is to actually ban CF/GCF. This rids of Gravity T125GCF and F230CF/GCF, without harming the conventional Gravity combos or eliminating any other popular customs in the format... except for Meteo F230CF/GCF, which is an unfortunate drawback in this case. End result: +Conventional Gravity combos, -Gravity F230CF/GCF, -Gravity T125GCF, -Meteo F230CF/GCF

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Those are our real options. I am personally a strong proponent of option 3, as my biggest concern here is to get rid of the more overpowered Gravity customs, while keeping the conventional, not-so overpowered (in my opinion) ones.

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As for my opinion on the issue of Scythe, it's quite brief.

The combo in question here is MF(-H) Scythe Pegasis II CH120RF. I have tested this combination extensively under countless different conditions, and I simply do not find it ban worthy in any way, shape, or form.

From my testing, it is easily countered by LTDC/LTSC, and honestly covers no more of the meta than a Beat MTAC. There are conflicting test results on this subject, and the point has been raised that these differences may be caused by mold variations in different Metal Wheels, but as of now I have not gotten gamebreaking results with it, nor anything to concern me about the health of the meta.

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My opinion on Rubber Ball, I moderately support its legalization. I doubt it would hurt anything, and it would definitely help MTDC against Gravity/Lightning combinations. It would add versatility to the Defense meta, and perhaps nullify some of the concerning numbers we're getting from Cosmic, Beat and Phoenic.

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That's my overall opinion on everything. This is all coming from extensive informal testing. I've done plenty of it. Again, we all must be reminded that anything we're discussing about different parts' effects on the metagame is purely assumption. We have yet to actually evaluate whether or not certain things actually help or hurt the format. We're basing our assumptions on relatively solid information, but we all must keep in mind that any or all of us could be incorrect when it comes to actual tournament play.

This is pretty much my final comment in February's update. That's all. I'm out.

(Jan. 08, 2014  12:58 PM)" L Wrote: [ -> ]I know it's not up to us. We have plenty of other attack wheels with tests, but no one looks at them. If Gravity was gone... Other attack wheels would be noticed. Here's what I gathered:

People who want it banned:
Kei
" L "
Leone19 (I think)

Who doesn't want it banned:
TheBlackDragon
Tri
Stamina.

Forgive me if I forgot anyone. I think Gravity should be banned, for the use of other attack wheels. Though, like we're saying, it's not up to us.

I don't want Gravity banned or see it ban worth after all at our tournament it went 0-the whole tournament... I'm a proponent that as other attack wheel are discovered/rediscovered the balance will will happen. And I feel the same with spin steals, I really need to do more testing on Guardian but my informal testing I feel it is a definite competitive alternative along with meteo and destructor...

If anything were to get banned, I feel the combination of F230 CF/GCF should be more of the discussion.
I still believe The Limited Format's ban list should be as minimal as possible and this essentially bans no parts just one combination of them.

I'm with coach, as I am in standard I am strong proponent of banning f230 cf/gcf and nothing more. I can even settle for letting it dominate unlimited, but there's no reason to have a part that dominates a heavier meta involved in a lighter one where the force necessary to KO it is even harder to come by.

My 2 cents with banning gravity:
WHY? Honestly gravity isn't that powerful of an attacker from this era, all it really has is that it looks, sounds, and is cool. With its fancy two direction spinning.
I was fooling around today with my beys, and I found lightning hit harder, hit quicker, and was easier to control

Lightning can be weak launched against, gravity notsomuch. Also, Perseus (Attack Version) makes gravity flat out better. Also better against opposing attack types. Also really good for spin stealing with some of the new parts in the format it turns out. I've posted a tonne of tests in the limited random thoughts thread on a few of it's relatively small number of pages, those would be worth flicking through.

Haha, fair enough. I will admit that lightning is also very light... Lol, I only have attack perseus, yes it is amazing.. but idk, for pure attack I would go lightning, for high attack and then versatility and survivability, gravity wins by a long shot

My flast thoughts on Gravity: After much (very much) testing. I did find it wasn't as good as I thought. But I did find what is causing the problem here: Gravity on F230 CF/GCF. It does get really high results with Gravity (Meteo too.) From my testing it could nearly win everything. It was bad that it wasn't banned in Standard, but Limited really!! It's like trying to win the lotto! Your mostly die then winning, haha. If we banned F230 CF/GFC or at least that setup, Limited would be back on track. From looking at past Limited events and Standards. I mostly saw "F230 CF/GCF." Gravity isn't the problem. I think we I was focused on the high results; Without knowing most was from F230 CF/GFC.
Overall: I'm sure most will agree. Gravity does not need banned, but the setup F230 CF/GCF or all together.

RB: I think it's safe to say I tested this the most. It's not much different then RSF. It wont over-rule the format. It does get 2-3 wins more then RSF. Though, it does help seen as Limited mostly uses attack. We need it (not in a "Quick! Now NOW!!" way.
Overall: Take it of the list.

Scythe: Now, from our testing in Limited. We have 3 molds. AA1 middle. AA2 the best and AA3 the worst. It does get high results, but that's only from AA2. Now, I'm with th!nk on banning Scythe. But WAIT! I think just AA2 should banned. It's the one with all the OS'S AND KO'S. That way, we can still use AA1 as a second best Scythe. Not to great, not to bad.
Overall: Just the mold AA2 should be banned. But first, I need people to back me up.

Just some of my thoughts. Thanks for reading.

Personally, I'm up for banning any track with a height over 145.. Because almost anything on any 230 height track is rather annoying to face.
I also personally think hell shouldn't be banned. Even though back in the day I semi-easily ko the basalt bd145 combos, I don't think it is any better then gravity for attack (well maybe a bit, but that is because I am biased as it is my favorite wheel) but the versatility of gravit kinda evens it out Id say

Check the Hell 230CS tests I posted somewhere, that's a big part of it. As for tall tracks they're super easy to KO without basalt on top of them (though hell's elevation makes it more of an issue than most).

EDIT for things I forgot: Oh yeah, Hell is also as heavy as Libra with a better weight distribution and the other thing with taller tracks is the fact there's a good range of them now rather than just 230 means 230 is not nearly as safe any more.

Like think said. 230 is easy to KO. If you look on the Scythe Pegasis II CH120RF, you'll see I could KO tall tracks easy. Most people think they're “powerful”, but they aren't really. It's just mostly F230 and E230 that would rule. Even E230 is not that hard to take down, but it needs to stay banned. Seen as it could boost Defense by alot! It can be countered by MTAC, and LTAC. It just depends on the setup. Also, it loses to any Stamina, haha.

Hell needs to stay banned. Nuff said.

Hell is banned because of 230...yeah.. That is kinda bullcarp..
As for this scythe thing, is it hasbro? Or takara (I'm assuming there is a difference). I'm a big fan on scythe for attack, but I don't know if mine is legal for limited.

I really need to get my hands on a cs or rsf for testing.. Though somehow my wb has been surviving better then expected

(Jan. 12, 2014  12:45 AM)lord Wolfblade Wrote: [ -> ]Hell is banned because of 230...yeah.. That is kinda bullcarp..
As for this scythe thing, is it hasbro? Or takara (I'm assuming there is a difference). I'm a big fan on scythe for attack, but I don't know if mine is legal for limited.

I really need to get my hands on a cs or rsf for testing.. Though somehow my wb has been surviving better then expected

The takara one is banned and the talk has been about the hasbro one that might get banned.

Oh, by the way lord Wolfblade... It's best to look at your number under Scythe if its Hasbro. If it's Hasbro and it's a "AA2" you should have a great mold. Also, eh, Scythe has use in Stamina, Defense and Attack, haha. It depends on your mold though.

Ah well, mine is takara, so I'm kinda stuck with gravity (to cliche), and lightning (if I feel like living dangerously)

Just thought I'd clear this up for you. All Takara-Tomy 4D Beyblades are banned. Hasbro Hyperblads are banned to. If you need help with anymore questions in Limited. Shoot me a PM. I live up to my usertitle

But keep an eye out, omega might be unbanned

i was just doing some testing on wing.. from what i can see so far it doesn't need to be banned.
its attack is rather.. non-existent.
wing (1, and 0 mode, need to test 2) ___ any track RF has trouble KOing MF-H earth bull GB145WB (and by trouble i mean, it just wont). this compared to my gravity which will KO earth, usually on the first hit.

its also rather recoil-y and its shape is just bad for stamina.

however, i can see it working as a sort of destabilizer if i can set it up right

Do you think you could post formated test results? It'd just help clear up what you're saying. I found Wing to be of somewhat... The same as Gravity or Cosmic ect. Not that good, but good at the same time. I'd post tests, but can't wake people up during the middle-of-the-night, haha.

haha, yeah i can. i think my problem was wings heavy weight on my RF (it kinda didn't move at all with wing. but i put that RF on my gravity and it moves normally D: )

i will see what i can do with my LRF, if it will work. should have tests up by tomorrow