(Apr. 25, 2014 12:29 AM)th!nk Wrote: [ -> ]I recall Omega placing in MD - placing is first, second, third or fourth, or at least this being mentioned. That it did not place first considering what did is not the worst thing ever. It certainly made an impression on *Ginga*, anyway.
Libra's underside is it's weak point defensively, and Omega is really good at getting under things. Libra anti-attack stands a chance (this is a same spin RF vs RF chance, and Omega still has the upper hand), and I could see Libra LTDC being enough for an Omega user to opt to use something else rather than take the risk even though Omega does well against it (better than any other Attack type by a solid margin, even Pegasis is somewhat dodgy against Libra LTDC, which worsens with wear), but it is not a valid or reliable counter - Scythe is the only thing I've tried that has managed that, and even then only as Anti-Attack.
After Scythe, Earth/Flame 230RSF/RB are probably the next best bet, but they're still unreliable (also your risk breaking a tip seeing as Omega 85 is kinda a jerk with regards to hitting the side of tips if there's nothing else for it to hit) and Omega can use slightly taller tracks to swing things even more in its favour (main cost I've seen is doing even more poorly vs low track scythe anti-attack, but there might be others, probably other Omega?).
Libra still deserves mentioning because it does really well against a lot of the meta bar Scythe and Omega (which obviously not everyone is going to have) as things stand right now, and isn't always completely blown away by them. It's not on their level by any means, though.
While on the matter of Omega LTAC (85, specifically):
(Mar. 02, 2014 12:22 AM)Another Wrote: [ -> ]Benchmark
MF-H Jade Pegasis III 85R2F vs MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF
Jade: 13/20 (0 OS'S, 13 KO'S)
Bakushin: 7/20 (6 OS'S, 1 KO)
Jade win %: 65.00%
Jade had alot of power against Bakushin! Though at the same time, Bakushin was holding on the ground.
MF-H Omega Pegasis III 85R2F (Assault Mode) vs MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF
Omega: 8/20 (0 OS'S, 8 KO'S)
Bakushin: 12/20 (12 OS'S, 0 KO'S)
Omega win %: 40.00%
Main problem for Omega was scraping problems on 85. It really didn't do that well for me. It got the KO's by some few sways.
MF-H Omega Pegasis III 85R2F vs MF-H Libra CH120RF
Omega: 4/20 (2 OS'S, 2 KO'S)
Libra: 16/20 (12 OS'S, 4 KO'S)
Omega win %: 20.00%
Huuuuuuuuge scraping problems against Libra. This thing was getting the carp kicked out off it!
So, I take it the issue we have now is on 100/105 height, since 85 seems to have it's weaknesses?
It certainly made an impact on MD. I scrambled at the beginning to get an Omega; I was lucky that I found one haha.
In regards to Libra, Libra CH120RF does a pretty solid job of getting a coin toss for a match haha.
Two other people's tests, IIRC, disagreed with those to some extent at least.
I suspect scraping is a matter of launch and/or RF condition - I had similar when I initially tried it out, but it cleared up using a slightly less worn RF and taking some time to get used to launching it (I'm accustomed to Pegasis, Gravity and Lightning on CH120/R145/TR145, rather than wide wheels on low tracks).
Either way I certainly have no trouble at all with Omega vs Bakushin (it's definitely better than Jade) and I'm not getting results as impressive as Tri or TBD - but it definitely makes a mess of Bakushin.
MF-H Libra CH120RF runs into trouble against taller Omega customs, for whatever reason - 100/105, and against 85 it's still a coin flip. TBD might have some tests lying around for that, as I think that was part of why he shifted towards those tracks, but you'd have to ask him.
(Apr. 25, 2014 12:42 AM)th!nk Wrote: [ -> ]Selective posting of tests does not a good argument make 
Two other people's tests, IIRC, disagreed with those.
I suspect scraping is a matter of launch or RF condition - I had similar when I initially tried it out, but it cleared up using a slightly less worn RF and taking some time to get used to launching it (I'm accustomed to Pegasis, Gravity and Lightning on CH120/R145/TR145, rather than wide wheels on low tracks). My own trouble with scraping disappeared, anyway.
MF-H Libra CH120RF runs into serious trouble against taller Omega customs, for whatever reason - 100/105, and it's still a coin toss against 85. TBD might have some tests lying around for that, as I think that was part of why he shifted towards those tracks.
Especially when I was presenting a question and not (intentionally) selective posting
I remembered "L"'s test showing that, so I found them and posted them. I did not see the contradicting tests, myself.
I just looked at your tests again Leone19; "L" used Pegasis III, which has shown to not perform as well compared to Horuseus. Just a note.
(And I'm in no way against you Leone19, I just am quite in favor of Scythe and Omega's ban)
(Apr. 25, 2014 12:49 AM)*Ginga* Wrote: [ -> ]I just looked at your tests again Leone19; "L" used Pegasis III, which has shown to not perform as well compared to Horuseus. Just a note.
(And I'm in no way against you Leone19, I just am quite in favor of Scythe and Omega's ban)
Again, wasn't selective posting, just posting something I remembered seeing.
I'm not personally against banning Scythe, never said I was.
I edited that part of my post before you replied - apologies if it came across as rude, again, bit out of sorts today - part of why I'm taking a temporary break for the most part aside from important discussions. I absolutely didn't mean to imply it was at all intentional, haha.
Personally, I suspect were Bakushin and Libra reliable against Omega it wouldn't have done well in NC as those are both things attendees were aware of being generally "good" and things they had available to them as far as I'm aware (in particular their previous winning combos list was begging for MF-H Libra CH120RF to finally truly burst onto the competitive scene by wrecking the joint, which is something I pointed out at the time and I know a couple were planning on making happen - even with Omega and Scythe around I'm kinda surprised that it didn't have a larger impact, though on giving it some more thought a lot of that would specifically be the switch away from Lightning towards Omega).
By the way, both geetster99 and Sniper who took second and third in between stars and I at the MD qualifier used Omega
I agree on the current ban list, I need to start working on limited format after my Texas tourney is done!
(Apr. 25, 2014 2:18 AM)Time Wrote: [ -> ]By the way, both geetster99 and Sniper who took second and third in between stars and I at the MD qualifier used Omega
I never had an omega at the time...
We should have the referee/judge of the round ask the competitors whether them want to have a synchrome or not. If they both agree, it should be allowed.
Are you kidding me? That literally ruins the whole point of limited, go play standard, fool
(Apr. 25, 2014 4:01 AM)geetster99 Wrote: [ -> ] (Apr. 25, 2014 2:18 AM)Time Wrote: [ -> ]By the way, both geetster99 and Sniper who took second and third in between stars and I at the MD qualifier used Omega
I never had an omega at the time...
Did you borrow one from someone?
(Apr. 25, 2014 1:47 PM)Time Wrote: [ -> ]Are you kidding me? That literally ruins the whole point of limited, go play standard, fool
(Apr. 25, 2014 4:01 AM)geetster99 Wrote: [ -> ] (Apr. 25, 2014 2:18 AM)Time Wrote: [ -> ]By the way, both geetster99 and Sniper who took second and third in between stars and I at the MD qualifier used Omega
I never had an omega at the time...
Did you borrow one from someone?
It was LLD bud pretty much similar to omega but in left spin.
Also about 10g lighter, 2/3 of the smash and much less effective against getting under things
Would be good of *Ginga* to clarify what he meant about Omega in MD, then.
If Lightning had any advantage over Omega, that would be left spin so it can spin steal and attack at the same time. otherwise, stick to Omega. It's got awesome power, and can match Blitz or Variares if used right. Then again I don't own Omega so no going into details for me XD.
Geez, that's Time getting warned a second time.
If Omega and Scythe are set to be banned, it'd be helpful if it was announced before AN, so time to prepare would be given.
Obviously I personally want the update to happen and be announced the minute the final qualifier (and thus the embargo on updates) concludes for exactly that reason. It's why I made my post in the advanced forum as soon as the two started showing up and am endeavouring to be present for any discussion in a timely manner even with my ongoing off-site personal difficulties. You're absolutely write - maximum preparation time is a must for such a big event and it's not like we don't have plenty of time to sort it all out in either - if people actually bother to participate in conversation.
Past form doesn't inspire confidence, but I'm always open to pleasant surprises.
I'm in favor of taking both scythe and omega out, but what about letting gravity back in? The attack meta is developed enough at this point that gravity f230 isn't the threat it was initially.
Again, it'd be really nice if this stuff were to be announced after the final Qualifier/a good amount of time before AN. Considering it's about a month away, it'd be nice to have a good amount of preparation.
I, myself, wouldn't be fully against adding Gravity in, but it'd probably be a bit risky adding it in, without looking into it more.
(Apr. 27, 2014 3:54 PM)Time Wrote: [ -> ]I'm in favor of taking both scythe and omega out, but what about letting gravity back in? The attack meta is developed enough at this point that gravity f230 isn't the threat it was initially.
Keep in mind places that don't use attack - they would basically be all gravity really. However, as I mentioned I'm in favour of a limitation on the crux of its power - the dual spin itself, as previously explained. With this I'm in favour of giving it another shot, however this is best left until after GBT2 IMO, especially if such a measure isn't implemented (as otherwise based on Toronto's previous tournament with it, no amount of attack is going to stop it from still being way overused tbh).
Plus, such a discussion would likely drag out the update quite severely - definitely wouldn't think it's worth that risk alone just now, but when gravity was banned I know I wasn't alone in saying the door was still open for a potential return under the right conditions - offensively, the rise of Pegasis (which is masked by Omega's presence) gives Gravity serious competition in the versatility stakes - Gravity isn't as effective against the full range of heights in any combination I'm aware of, mostly because it doesn't monster LTDC like Pegasis does and that's kind of important (which is interesting as they finally gained long deserved popularity only because of Gravity in the first place - Bakushin in particular).
I haven't had much chance to play with Gravity F230(G)CF and a small crack in my F230's tip-attachment area makes me rather unenthusiastic about doing so but it definitely doesn't strike me as a serious issue for even Anti-Attack so even when Scythe/Omega go, Libra is still going to be a concern, and I was generally of the opinion the combo was a little overrated because of that, but lingering fame, especially judging from Kei's reaction to it, would make it a problem at GBT2 - given more time, perhaps not.
Of course, there were still other concerns with Gravity - lower GCF setups, while perhaps inconsistent, are still capable of some concerning things, so even then I'd still prefer it to be reintroduced only with the limitation on its dual spin (whatever spin direction you use at the start of the beybattle must be used for the whole thing - more of a limit on dual-spin launchers than anything on gravity/variares specifically).
(Apr. 29, 2014 11:53 PM)Peece_2012 Wrote: [ -> ]Why is Phantom banned
As it has been explained before, read Th!nk's post in the beginning of the topic on why all parts banned are banned.
In short, it's Stamina and weight are outstanding and can be used and the superb Tornado Staller: Phantom Aquario 90 MF.
Hey guys - haven't read through the whole discussion (just got a few minutes with internet to check up on things), but for what it's worth I 100% support a ban on Scythe. The ridiculous sate of the NC qualifier I witnessed pretty much confirmed everything for me.
I am not opposed to Gravity being unbanned, but I agree that it would have to be after GBT2.
Scythe is kinda a problem, just saying.
Has anybody posted videos of one of the supposed "good" Scythes showcasing it in Stamina/Defense set ups? I'm curious about it because in the (admittedly little) testing I've done, I wasn't impressed by it defensively, and it lost to Duo (Metal Fury) every time in Stamina tests. However, it was good for Attack.