World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc.

Really? What did you find impractical about it?

If you were getting self-KOs, I can confidently assume that something weird was going on most likely. I had this thing wreck every Attack type I threw at it.

Plus, it isn't that complicated at all. Banning F230CF/GCF is just as complicated if you think about it.

Yes, it's possible it is just me/my launch or whatever with the self KOs and so on, but there seems to be general skepticism as to whether it can pull of those vs attack results in a tournament situation. Two person attack tests would help assess that, if anyone can do them - that seems to be the main concern as I see it, anyway. Would also be good to see what other things such as Metal Fury LDG can do on CH120/D125/T125GCF too, in case it's a matter where those tips are the actual problem. Kinda out of it at the moment but yeah those are my thoughts.

Well, the thing about LDG is that it isn't dual rotating.

You could take that out easily with B : D/W145WD/85/90WD/EWD with Earth or Libra or anything that spins for a half-decent amount of time.

Regardless of how high smash a wheel has, KOing in opposite spin with GCF is nearly impossible. I've tested Dragooon T125GCF customs extensively, and getting it to even make solid contact without GCF scraping is incredibly hard. That said, LDG also has horrible Defense, and with the grippy Hasbro rubber near the bottom one good hit from an LTAC will send it flying.

The thing about Gravity is that, with its overhang, it's center of Gravity is incredibly low and landing a solid hit underneath it is seriously difficult even with LTAC. Vulcan is the only thing I found that worked, and even then it was a little iffy. That's the reason Gravity F230 takes a beating from Lightning. It ain't low enough. XD Then, again, Gravity can implement dual-spin, which means it can make use of GCF's Attack against Earth, which is just too close to impossible in opposite-spin for it to be any problem.

I can actually test this if my little brother lets me use his L-Drago Guardian. I'll try to convince him.

Be manipulative XD looking forward to those tests

Alright, didn't have the time or the patience to get any formal testing done, but it may not even have been worth it, because from what I saw Vulcan LTAC absolutely trashed it.

It also seems to be very inefficient at spin-stealing, as Vulcan out-spun it whenever it couldn't KO (which was very rarely). I also couldn't get it to KO Earth 85EWD for my life, so that opens up a slew of viable counters.

I don't think it'll turn into a problem at all. If it does, I'll be extremely surprised. I'll also bet a ton it would eat dirt on F230, from all the recoil the rubber was causing.

Keep in mind it's legal to use Takara LDG's softer rubbered PC frame on it, which might help with the recoil. If Vulcan is outspinning it though that's pretty crazy so yeah I guess it probably won't be an issue then. Thanks for trying it out.

As Kei said, it's not final. So here just some thoughts, as of now. Well, guys we finally have a BAN LIST! I must say, I'm happy with the "Unbanned" I wonder how Limited will do? I'm guessing better. Why wasn't Scythe BANNED!! So I guess I'm OK with this. Hope I helped with this, haha.

http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Limited-...nuary-20th

Sorry for double post, but I'm 100% in full agreement with th!nk:

th!nk Wrote:So, all the discussion about Scythe was duly ignored without any public discussion as to why.

If anyone would like to provide an explanation, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would appreciate it.

I'm pretty surprised that Sythe wasn't banned TBH, it seemed very overpowered IMO. It probably wasn't spammed in tournaments enough. Unlike Gravity.

I thought it was.

You're telling me! Not even a cursory response to let us know what was up, had I not been bugging people about it in private the past few days because of the inactivity and sudden announcement of the rushed update I can't say the surprise would've been something I'd have taken well at all. Stuff like that is real top notch from a community management perspective too - really makes people feel valued ya know? But hey, what can you do.


So uh guys get ready for Scythe because wow that update just kicked this thing into overdrive LOL.

Well, I was hoping it was banned. Who's ready for F230CF/GCF in Limited? Honestly, we have more people who wants it banned, but the never take notice. I know me and you th!nk tested Scythe like hell!! I guess it wasn't noticed. Oh well. I'm not gonna keep going.

It was noticed, last I heard they wanted to see it wreck a tournament because you know, apparently being the best stamina and defense wheel (to the point that aside from gravity and lightning it is basically unstoppable and lightning can't handle it and bakushin ltdc at the same time) while also providing results equal to the best attack types while beating them 1v1, and just generally being very spammable due to its defense/stamina properties just isn't enough unless someone sweeps a tournament with it just so we know for absolute certain that this extremely, blatantly broken wheel is actually broken despite there being no feasible obstacle to it doing so just on its defensive and stamina properties alone.


And yes I of all people have to be the person to provide a public explanation about this. Wonderful, huh?

(Jan. 19, 2014  1:43 AM)*Aquamarine* Wrote: [ -> ]I thought it was.

So sorry, I thought Scythe was banned, it wasn't. super sorry

So I've been doing some more tests with Jade, and I am completely in favor of unbanning Jade. While Jade appears to be extremely effective vs. Stamina, anything with a rubber tip will completely stop it. Jade smashes stuff into the ground quite a bit, so anything with rubber just gets that grippy stuff crammed even harder into the stadium floor.

(Jan. 19, 2014  2:16 AM)Cake Wrote: [ -> ]So I've been doing some more tests with Jade, and I am completely in favor of unbanning Jade. While Jade appears to be extremely effective vs. Stamina, anything with a rubber tip will completely stop it. Jade smashes stuff into the ground quite a bit, so anything with rubber just gets that grippy stuff crammed even harder into the stadium floor.

For Jade to get unbanned, more formal testing is needed.

@*Aquamarine*: Just edit your posts in future.

You guys are really overreacting ... It seemed quite obvious from Ingulit's posts in the Advanced forum topic that there would be an imminent ban list update, however we did acknowledge that it made no sense to ban new parts at the last minute before several tournaments this weekend where people would not necessarily have read the update right before traveling to the event of their choice. As for Scythe, we do not at all undervalue any of the tests done anywhere and by anyone : we definitely appreciate them, but Libra had to dominate a lot in tournaments before getting banned, and Basalt essentially missed being banned just because 4D was released shortly after it came out, but it was also still its SPAMming in events that made people want to ban it. Theoretical results always have to be backed up by tournament results; something preventive might have been great, but it also has to be considered that people need a specific mould which is not even widely available anymore, and perhaps there is a tournament atmosphere factor to be inserted in this whole formula too. In Uwik's opinion, it would also not leave too much of an ugly mark on Beypoints if there is one tournament where Scythe has dominated, overall. Ban lists have also always been finalised by the Committee, this is not news; there is much progress now compared to before when perhaps just a certain clique was able to participate in such decisions, a very restricted group.

That being said, I am quite sleepy right now, and I was asleep when everything got finalised last night, so it is not me who should necessarily come here and explain everything. I was simply fulfilling my responsibility as a representative of the Committee and telling you that we absolutely considered all the tests with Scythe, including but not limited to " L "'s and th!nk's test, but I really hope someone else comes and redacts more organised paragraphs about this whole subject now ... I think Gravity was the emergency because it has proven to be dominant in basically every Limited-format tournament up until now, but since the date was postponed to after the weekend anyway, I do not know ...

So, if anyone knows Japanese, my use of "we" is more in the sense of 'wareware' than 'watashitachi', let us say ...

Honestly if the testing on Scythe isn't good enough for you then frankly, I give up on testing full stop. Simpler to just throw a combo at someone tell them what it does and send them off to a tournament, seeing as that is literally all that matters - just look at gravity and all that testing gravity f230(g)cf got (like a couple of matches worth).

If you consider this state of things - where I spent a good part of my week explaining why something was broken, providing alternatives and so on for the good of the format, encouraging people to test, only to be completely and utterly ignored without any of you deigning to so much respond to me, then, honestly, I have some serious thinking to do about how I spend my time from now on.

These decisions are still made by a selective clique, and we have blatantly seen that today - one that won't even deign to discuss things in that tall ivory tower we call the advanced forum, but instead in secretive backroom discussions and votes. No response to the strong support for banning scythe or heck, more recent opposition to banning gravity - no one has actually said that it is broken, it's *far* less broken than Scythe, but again, no response to the peons - just running ahead and making decisions without talking to the community, leaving us in the dark until you finally decide to do something. That is not how communities operate - for profit companies perhaps, but not communities (just think what would happen if you didn't pay cube farm workers for their time).

Sorry, but this is not even remotely the right or respectful way to do things. I can deal with Scythe not being banned, honestly, time will prove me right on that anyway even if in the short term you're making a decision that offers no benefits and what will possibly be a sizeable cost to one of the two areas where people have AA2 Scythes, but the way the staff have conducted themselves in this instance is an absolute disgrace and I, for one, am not going to sit by while it happens, because I want the community to be valued and feel valued. I had been told, and had hoped, that Limited would see a different, more inclusive approach, only to see the most blatant disregard for community opinion and reasoned discussion in a very long time.

Overreaction? Perhaps, though this is something I've been thinking about since the rushed update thing appeared out of nowhere and perhaps even a little before then, and I'm not in a bad state of mind at the moment either. But if you think things like this are not serious, that this blatant disregard for members of the community is acceptable, then the problem runs deeper than I had thought, and it is probably not worth me even bothering to continue to try to change or compensate for it myself by trying to make it clear to members that at the very least, I personally value their contributions (especially testing and their excellently thought out posts many of which put the advanced forum to absolute shame) - because it sure as heck doesn't seem to be coming from where it should.

Now, IIRC, Ingulit started a [LTD] Scythe Discussion thread It really just had use in stamina at the time and I tested it for that too. Then after some time, IIRC, Th!nk and I found out it had use in: Stamina, Defense, Attack/Anti-Attack. Now, Scythe hasn't been used in a tournament yet, so it's not yet known if its broken or not. Then after that we found out some people wasn't getting the same results. It made Scythe look "Not Over-Powered" But from talking to people, I think we came up with a good idea: Scythe has 4 molds. All have there ups and downs. "AA1" Now this one is the middle one. It doesn't do so good, but good at the same time. Maybe 10/20 OK nothing big there. Then we could move to "AA4" From what I've seen it's just the same as "AA1". Maybe it might get a few more wins, but that's about it. Maybe 13/20 Now "AA3" This seems to be the worst there is. It gets results from as little as 5/20 depending on what it's up against. Now this really messed-up a bit in terms of banning it, but WAIT!!! Now lets move on to "AA2" Now this seems to be the best mold of Scythe. It gets numbers from as high as: 19/20 against top-tier customs. Now is that broken or not. We've had alot of testing on Scythe. Yes, me and th!nk have been working with Scythe for the past month. Now, from my testing and th!nk's, I'm sure Scythe should be banned. OK, what's to say someone might go to a tournament with a "AA3" Yeah won't be that good, but then you see a "AA2" It's gonna wipe out the tournament. Kinda like a F230CF/GCF in Limited. It's quite OP. Now for some tests:

WBO Committee: It was recently brought to our attention that all tests by Crescent in this topic are fabricated. We urge you to forget their results and that someone trustworthy conduct the actual tests for the sake of this metagame.

(Jan. 19, 2014  1:45 AM)th!nk Wrote: [ -> ]You're telling me! Not even a cursory response to let us know what was up, had I not been bugging people about it in private the past few days because of the inactivity and sudden announcement of the rushed update I can't say the surprise would've been something I'd have taken well at all. Stuff like that is real top notch from a community management perspective too - really makes people feel valued ya know? But hey, what can you do.


So uh guys get ready for Scythe because wow that update just kicked this thing into overdrive LOL.

The ban list itself has been public for a while now. What we presented today is no different than what was discussed publicly. It has been clear to anyone following the discussions that an update was imminent now that the trial period had passed. Discussion of what potentially could be banned has been public. This entire process has been about as transparent as it could possibly be without us making the final internal discussions (which were not as extensive and long as you might think; everything we discussed was informed directly by what the community presented to us, both through tournament results and tests) public. Final decisions are always made by the Committee; that's how it's always been. To suggest that we are having "secretive backroom discussions and votes" without considering the community in any way, shape, or form is false, and I'm saddened that you would think such a thing. We do everything that we do because we love this community. Unfortunately, public decision-making isn't terribly efficient (hence the existence of the Committee in the first place), and while we absolutely do value and consider everything that everyone does, we in the end have to make informed, final decisions–based on our own opinions and what we see the community saying–on our own. I don't like to talk about ourselves in this way, but I would also like to think that everyone on the Committee (and Ingulit, in this case) has earned our respective positions and that most people would trust us to make the best decisions that we can for the community and for the game, as we always try our very best to do. And of course, nothing is ever set in stone: we are always willing to make changes based on community feedback as well.

Also, Kai-V did provide an explanation regarding Scythe before this update was posted:

(Jan. 16, 2014  2:27 AM)Kai-V Wrote: [ -> ]About Scythe, I believe we are waiting to see it actually dominate at tournaments first. Right now, it does not appear to be a problem at all in events, which is all Limited is : even if Attack customizations seemed to dominate in the past, that was not the case in tournaments, so they were never banned of course. This Hasbro Scythe involves more than just Attack, but it still has not become problematic outside of tests yet.

I don't know what else you really want.

(Jan. 19, 2014  1:47 AM)" L Wrote: [ -> ]Well, I was hoping it was banned. Who's ready for F230CF/GCF in Limited? Honestly, we have more people who wants it banned, but the never take notice. I know me and you th!nk tested Scythe like hell!! I guess it wasn't noticed. Oh well. I'm not gonna keep going.

F230CF/GCF isn't a problem with Gravity out of the picture.

Of course we noticed the testing on Scythe. We would have been blind not to! But testing alone doesn't qualify something as being bannable.

(Jan. 19, 2014  2:43 AM)th!nk Wrote: [ -> ]Honestly if the testing on Scythe isn't good enough for you then frankly, I give up on testing full stop. Simpler to just throw a combo at someone tell them what it does and send them off to a tournament.

If you consider this state of things - where I spent a good part of my week explaining why something was broken, providing alternatives and so on for the good of the format, only to be completely and utterly ignored, then, honestly, I have some serious thinking to do about how I spend my time from now on.

We all were absolutely well aware of your ardent desire to see Scythe banned, but testing is only an indicator of potential, as you're well aware of, and agree with. Qualifying a Wheel as being ban worthy through testing alone would be foolish, for you would be denying the presence of the external factors present in real-life, competitive situations, which is what really matters in the end. We can't ban something that has had literally zero presence (to my knowledge) in Limited Format tournaments to date, no matter how impressive the test results are from a couple people.

That being said, tournament performance alone might not be enough either. In my opinion, both testing and tournament performance are required because there's no way that we would be able to fully understand a particular part through the handful of matches it is able to win at tournaments. Each confirms the other. I don't think it's fair to bring Gravity F230CF/GCF into the discussion because both Gravity and the combination of F230CF/GCF are much more well known individually based on their performance in past formats, and looking at the combination of the two, it becomes blatantly obvious why it is overpowered; but even so, it wasn't only about F230CF/GCF but also Gravity's overall performance in other areas, and it's properties in general that have been well documented both now through testing and tournament results for Limited Format, and in the past in the Standard Format. Metal Fury Scythe, on the other hand, was a complete unknown until recently and has seen no play competitively in any format. Just because we decided to take this perspective to decide against banning Scythe does not mean that we ignored the community. What the community has done is bring Scythe to the attention of everyone, so it is most certainly on the top of our "watch list" right now, and should it become obvious that it is deserving of being banned through tournament performance, we absolutely will not hesitate to ban it because we would then have both sides required: testing and tournament results.

Actually, I used Scythe in a tournament. Scythe SR200TB, remember?

(Jan. 19, 2014  2:43 AM)th!nk Wrote: [ -> ]Honestly if the testing on Scythe isn't good enough for you then frankly, I give up on testing full stop. Simpler to just throw a combo at someone tell them what it does and send them off to a tournament, seeing as that is literally all that matters - just look at gravity and all that testing gravity f230(g)cf got (like a couple of matches worth).

If you consider this state of things - where I spent a good part of my week explaining why something was broken, providing alternatives and so on for the good of the format, encouraging people to test, only to be completely and utterly ignored without any of you deigning to so much respond to me, then, honestly, I have some serious thinking to do about how I spend my time from now on.

These decisions are still made by a selective clique, and we have blatantly seen that today - one that won't even deign to discuss things in that tall ivory tower we call the advanced forum, but instead in secretive backroom discussions and votes. No response to the strong support for banning scythe or heck, more recent opposition to banning gravity - no one has actually said that it is broken, it's *far* less broken than Scythe, but again, no response to the peons.

Sorry, but this is not even remotely the right or respectful way to do things. I can deal with Scythe not being banned, honestly, time will prove me right on that anyway even if in the short term you're making a decision that offers no benefits and what will possibly be a sizeable cost to one of the two areas where people have AA2 Scythes, but the way the staff have conducted themselves in this instance is an absolute disgrace and I, for one, am not going to sit by while it happens, because I want the community to be valued and feel valued. I had been told, and had hoped, that Limited would see a different, more inclusive approach, only to see the most blatant disregard for community opinion and reasoned discussion in a very long time.

Overreaction? Perhaps. But if you think things like this are not serious, that this blatant disregard for members of the community is acceptable, then the problem runs deeper than I had thought, and it is probably not worth me even bothering to continue to try to change or compensate for it myself by trying to make it clear to members that at the very least, I personally value their contributions.

EDIT : OK, Scott replied meanwhile because I like to take a lot of time to redact thoroughly-thought-of posts rather than impulsive ones, so perhaps there are points in the following reply that are moot now.


Hm, "peons" ? It just happens that everyone in the Committee has reached a point in life where we have a full life with full-time jobs and everything, but in the past we were definitely as much part of the testers as anyone else, and we would definitely love to have as much time to be part of it like that now too, so do not call us slave masters or something.

Saying you will give up all testing is also exaggerated ... We have not disregarded anyone. In fact, several 'concessions' were made based on input we got : no new list effective now because it would be too short notice for the tournaments this weekend, the proposed list came from Ingulit as far as I know except the absence of Hasbro's Scythe, etc.

Does it not make sense to you that the way banning and unbanning work is in these directions :

Banning : tests + tournament results too high = ban.
Unbanning : wary tests, seem OK = unban. If tournament results come and somehow demolish that later right after being unbanned though, then we would reconsider that.

I am also certain that people in areas where Gravity has been used excessively already are still not part of that "recent opposition to banning Gravity".


So, I think what bothers you the most is just Hasbro's Scythe not being banned yet because several factors were considered that you think should not matter, right ? Until someone else in the Committee comments, isn't the most reasonable thing to do to wait to see how tournaments turn out ? As more of an arbiter than any of the chess pieces or even any of the chess players, can we not agree on this temporary truce ? I honestly am not one-sided at all in all of this, anything in my posts is just me trying to explain one of the sides since you do everything to explain the side your are on already, but I am absolutely curious to see what happens next, and all I know is that someone will grow from being proven wrong whatever happens.

Okay, brace yourselves, I've been giving this a huge amount of thought for quite some time (and spent most of today editing and revising over and over again) so this is basically a massive infodump of almost everything I have to say about this, split between responses to Kei and Kai-V, though ideally the whole thing should be read before responding.

First off, my primary concern is the process, not the decision that resulted from it (i.e. no this isn't about scythe not being banned). I disagree with the decision but it is not what I am challenging, so while I would rather not do so because the whole thing surrounding scythe is the source of a lot of my examples and so on and therefore it would make discussion more difficult, I'm willing to agree to some sort of "truce" like Kai-V suggested if it is necessary so that people understand my sincerity and aims. Hopefully though we're all mature enough that that won't be needed, but either way I will try to separate out scythe stuff as much as possible from my responses.

Anyway:

:

This spoiler contains Scythe Stuff - it has some examples and so on for what I'm saying but on the whole you can probably skip it (Click to View)

The potential thing depends on the particular combination and wheel, the posts I've made on the topic are specifically only referring to Attack types and certain combinations that have some propensity to self-KO or the like (think MLD CH120XF). Can write up a whole essay to explain the concept and so on, but as a quick run-through as this is beside the point I'm really interested in, generally combinations with a good balance of defense and stamina properties relative to the metagame are going to be/have been at least as successful as testing suggests because they're easy to use and also usually because they do well against outclassed combos (tourney fodder). Obviously access to things plays a part (though not one that should be considered w/ respect to banning a part for being overpowered), but aside from that, Scythe is pretty much the best at all of these properties (best stamina wheel though Duo is a little better than some, best defense wheel, etc etc etc).

I'm honestly a little surprised to find this isn't just commonly accepted knowledge as to me it's very simple, logical and very much borne out by the winning combinations thread in its entirety, so that does actually make me think that the decision making process could benefit from taking more perspectives into account or at least being more transparent (eg had I known this was the case then I would have written something up about it a long time ago). It is also something I mentioned (at least as it applied to the context) in the discussion about Scythe that went completely un-responded to which I feel should have been discussed at the time (alongside the validity of tournament usage when AA2's aren't that common and the reasons that I'm concerned about it in spite of that relative rarity).

As for other stuff regarding Scythe and what little discussion there was, I responded to everything well in advance and if I recall correctly the mold thing hadn't been nearly as settled at the point you mention. Either way, Nocto and I both provided alternatives for handling the situation with appropriate care, and I've repeatedly explained why I feel testing alone is enough to ban it in this particular case (which is repeated in a more general sense above), again with no response.
Aside from things I've responded to here, I'm pretty sure everything else you've mentioned about Scythe and Gravity has already been responded to or explained in the various relevant threads, which only makes me more concerned about how much consideration this decision was really given. Still, not my main issue.

On staff having earned respect and trust, it's besides the point if there is no tangible benefit to keeping something behind closed doors. Seeing as you asked, however, I will give an honest answer, so please don't take it as being disrespectful, I respect you all, and you do a great job of running the organization and so forth, and if I didn't I wouldn't have bothered making this post (nor spending so much time editing it). I do feel that because you are only human beings, because there are only a small number of you, and as well as in small part the unavoidable consequences of a largely self-selecting body (which is not something I have any issue with, in case it sounds that way), that there *might* be room for improvement in terms of decisionmaking with regards to decisions such as this, where a little more public input/feedback and maybe a little more manpower could be helpful in doing certain things and representing certain views. As I said, it's not really relevant to what I'm trying to address here, and again, please don't take it as disrespectful.

Anyway, making good decisions is important and valuable, yes, and the committee rarely if ever makes decisions that could be called "bad", but making those decisions in the correct manner is extremely important in making the community feel that they're being listened to, that their thoughts are considered, and also letting them have greater insight into why certain things occur or what is going on and so forth (for example - certain things just seem to disappear without any response from the committee, often things where one of the options is maintaining the status quo, and in such case we would all benefit by seeing why). If I didn't trust that the process was something that would make sense and so on, then I more than likely would have much more to say with regards to changes than I do or in general be less forthright about it (FWIW I've heard conflicting descriptions, but none of them affect my assessment that there are only gains to be had here, mostly just the magnitude of said gain).

As for efficiency, I've included one of my suggestions (my personal favourite) in response to Kai-V's post later in this post, and as mentioned have various other ideas that may be more acceptable as well, but it's definitely something I considered with regards to this and would be very glad to discuss that further.

Basically, the main thing I'm suggesting is that the portion of the decisionmaking process for rulings that currently occurs behind closed doors instead be done in public - as I see it, there shouldn't be any significant cost to doing so, even if it is a very small process or whatever, it will at least let people know what's going on and generally feel more connected to the decisions that get made on the things they post about (not to mention generally improving trust and so on).

---

-V:

Oh, I didn't mean "peons" it in that sense (slave is the original meaning but it also refers to people held in low regard/with little authority, which is what I was going for - I was at best only peripherally aware of the original meaning until you mentioned it, to be honest), probably still too fiery/controversial, should've gone with the standard "rest of us" or w/e, but it's too late now so eh. Anyway:

I think the start of this post already answers the "what is this about" thing, so I'll skip over that. I covered most of my thoughts and reasoning in response to Kei, so I'll try to focus more on what I'm suggesting and so on as well as anything you specifically raised.

Some examples to demonstrate the point which are also relevant to certain things you mentioned but aren't really "required reading" per se (Click to View)

As an example (which may not be necessary to read if you already know what I'm talking about), there has been no public agreement on whether Gravity is actually broken - it's strong, and most of us accept that it is too strong in at least one combination or another, but broken is a separate concept and discussion about it very specifically avoided calling it that. Contrary to your stated expectations, a number of people in NC (one of the places where the winning combos were rather gravity-centric) were opposed to banning Gravity, and at least one of them has been one of the most vocal opponents of it in this very thread, of particular relevance is their explanation of why it isn't as big an issue as it appeared to be from the winning combinations list. I know how busy you are, but you have to admit that this kinda demonstrates my point here about not paying enough attention to the community, seeing as that is definitely something that should have come up seeing as it was a central point in the pro-ban argument.
The fact that a tournament in that very area was coming up so soon combined with his explanation was pretty solid justification to hold off for that tournament and see what happened (personally given more notice I'd have suggested consulting the members of that particular community for their thoughts about the particular issue, seeing as it's their tournament being affected) - generally speaking the whole rushed update thing should've been managed better and had the suggestion been public from the get go there's a better chance that the issues with regards to giving enough notice could have been addressed and so on, avoiding the confusion we saw.

With regards to staff being busy people with busy lives being an issue, as I see it that is a part of effective community management, so if it's a problem in this regard then it needs to be addressed. At the least, people being able to see the whole decision making process with regard to ruling issues such as this (and perhaps/preferably others that do not require secrecy) will go a long way to addressing any concerns along the lines of things not being taken into account or inadequate discussion or whatever.

The biggest cost to you guys would be that certain things (basically those where maintaining the status quo is a feasible option which are also kinda tough issues and so on, things like the ruling changes a couple of us opposed a while ago) would have to be given a (generally final) public verdict rather than just left (almost certainly unintentional, so perhaps this isn't a downside at all), which could mean a little more work, but if that's an issue I'm sure something could be done to fix it (I have one or two mostly-formed ideas bouncing around, if you're interested, let me know).

As stated in my response to Kei, if said viewpoints are not all sufficiently considered (as certain things that have been said indicate to me personally, but overall it's mostly besides the point and I'm just including this to show more possible benefits) then that is also something that would be at least partially addressed by making the whole thing publicly visible (possibly fully depending on the selection).

My suggestion on how to achieve this is that instead of having such decisions and whatever related discussion that happens take place in private, that it instead be done in the advanced forum (which I think is what Ingulit wanted for this format), as the criteria and activity level make it very well suited to that (being a staff member requires additional attributes on top of what is relevant to such decisions, so therefore it's an unnecessary restriction). Again I'm not entirely sure what the exact process is and thus can't give any more specific details or whatever but generally speaking the various things I've heard at least indicates it should translate pretty easily.
Obviously though, that is only one suggestion and I have a few alternative ideas and so on which might be preferable.

We're all working toward the same goal here - the good of this organization and the community around it, and I'm sure you know that transparency and general relations with the userbase are two issues I've always cared very strongly about (especially as in this case it has been affecting me personally) so while much of this is based on recent events, discussions, and trends, hopefully you understand that this isn't a fleeting issue to me, as well as my sincere hope that significant good comes from this.


EDIT: FWIW Dark_Mousy just told me that despite being legal, Gravity didn't do all that great at NC today, and suggestions of that being possible were a big part of the 'do not ban' argument. Further examination is of course needed but it is at least something worth noting.
Here's the winning combos list thanks to TBD: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Winning-...pid1189811

The OP was updated to reflect v1.1 of the ban list. With that, I'm done for awhile, have fun guys

Quote:EDIT: FWIW Dark_Mousy just told me that despite being legal, Gravity didn't do all that great at NC today, and suggestions of that being possible were a big part of the 'do not ban' argument. Further examination is of course needed but it is at least something worth noting.
Here's the winning combos list thanks to TBD: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Winning-...pid1189811

Again our last tournament in Chicago, Gravity went 0-the entire tournament. Like I said with these bans if you want it Flame verses Thermal just put it that way...
Anyway even though I'm not happy about Gravity, not because I love the wheel but because its completely unwarranted in my eyes, we will do a Limited on Feb 9. Where I will use my combos I created testing threads for to try and keep Gravity from getting banned: Theif Phoenic H145R2F, Libra 85RF, L-Drago Guardian 85LRF all which I find greater than Gravity in different circumstances.