Even if this proves to be an effective counter, I am still entirely in favor of banning it. The only reason I am still searching for a counter at this point is for the sake of giving us something to work with in the transition period between F230 CF/GCF being banned.
Why F230 CF/GCF breaks the game
Poll: What should be done about F230?
| Ban it altogether |
|
15 |
| Ban it to some extent |
|
33 |
| Leave it alone |
|
47 |
| Total: | 100% | 95 vote(s) |
I just tried this, and I got weird results...
My really smooth F230 totally destroyed it, but it crushed my super jacked up one.
I don't currently have one that holds a middle ground (gotta clean out the crappy one; it was doing really well last night, but there's something jammed in there that's hindering the free rotation), so I can't say for sure whether or not it's effective.
However, there's one problem... This may beat Dragooon F230, but what about Genbull F230? Beating F230 in both rotations is a critical part of developing a counter. It'll also lose to just about every other competitive custom in the meta, haha, so it really isn't looking good.
My really smooth F230 totally destroyed it, but it crushed my super jacked up one.
I don't currently have one that holds a middle ground (gotta clean out the crappy one; it was doing really well last night, but there's something jammed in there that's hindering the free rotation), so I can't say for sure whether or not it's effective.
However, there's one problem... This may beat Dragooon F230, but what about Genbull F230? Beating F230 in both rotations is a critical part of developing a counter. It'll also lose to just about every other competitive custom in the meta, haha, so it really isn't looking good.
![[Image: 68vfxj.jpg]](https://oi57.tinypic.com/68vfxj.jpg)
I think I found something...
Weak launched Dragoon as usual...
Killerken Dragoon F230 GCF Vs. Genbull Dragoon CH120 WD
GD: 18 wins (All OS)
KD: 2 wins (All "Sway OS"- Swayed, but stayed in the stadium)
Genbull Dragoon Win Rate: 90%
GD was launched first and at 100%, weak launched KD second.
I literally just did these, any other tests following my launches would be appreciated.
Weak launched Dragoon as usual...
Killerken Dragoon F230 GCF Vs. Genbull Dragoon CH120 WD
GD: 18 wins (All OS)
KD: 2 wins (All "Sway OS"- Swayed, but stayed in the stadium)
Genbull Dragoon Win Rate: 90%
GD was launched first and at 100%, weak launched KD second.
I literally just did these, any other tests following my launches would be appreciated.
![[Image: 9ff5d708-ada9-4d9e-a353-d60f3c2fc6a2_zpsf8dc7f76.jpg]](http://s1303.photobucket.com/user/Bakubey13/media/9ff5d708-ada9-4d9e-a353-d60f3c2fc6a2_zpsf8dc7f76.jpg.html)
I kind of already "found" that, excpet I used MSF(Sway Resistance) and EWD. Greta minds think alike. 
It has a very large Sway problem, so if you use MSF-L and GCF, more than liekly it won't get good results. I have a few tests in the thread if someone wants to check them out, it won 10-0 against Duo F230. ATM, I think this is the best thing we have so far, more tetsing woukd be needed.
It has a very large Sway problem, so if you use MSF-L and GCF, more than liekly it won't get good results. I have a few tests in the thread if someone wants to check them out, it won 10-0 against Duo F230. ATM, I think this is the best thing we have so far, more tetsing woukd be needed.
(Feb. 16, 2014 12:54 AM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote: I kind of already "found" that, excpet I used MSF(Sway Resistance) and EWD. Greta minds think alike.
It has a very large Sway problem, so if you use MSF-L and GCF, more than liekly it won't get good results. I have a few tests in the original thread of someone wants to check them out, it won 10-0 against Duo F230. ATM, I think this is the best thing we have so far, more tetsing woukd be needed.
I had no idea you had a similar combination, as there is no topic for it, haha.
I chose no MSF, to have better Stamina.
With Dragoon using its recommended weak launch, this thing kills it.
(Dec. 03, 2013 2:19 AM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote: Okay I may have found a good combo, it is MSF-H Genbull Dragooon CH120W2D.I'm pretty against W2D right now, but considering how well it did against these cmbos using W2D, this should be looked into further, possibly with BWD/TB/EWD. I stopped testing due to a worn W2D.
Beat everything I threw at it.
Before judging this just look at the tests.Spoiler (Click to View)
Okay, this is not just AZL's combo. I've had this combo since Saturday, go ahead and ask Dragon King.
But then there's this:
About Genbull Dragooon CH120W2D:
Genbull Dragooon F230GCF vs. Genbull Dragooon CH120W2D
Dragooon CH120 launched first on all lauches. Dragooon F230 launched to sway KO.
Dragooon F230: wins, 10/10 (All SKO)
Dragooon CH120: wins, 0/10
Genbull Dragooon F230GCF win rate: 100%
I'd request backup tests becuase of those results.
You should've really redone the ties, it seems to be having trouble against Duo F230. If we did find a counter against Dragooon F230, how would that counter do against Duo/Death F230? That's why you should always redo ties, so we can see.
Also, how would that counter compare to other combos in the meta that aren't F230 CF/GCF?
Also, how would that counter compare to other combos in the meta that aren't F230 CF/GCF?
But I did Re-Do them...
I didn't just do against F230 tests, as you can see.
I didn't just do against F230 tests, as you can see.
*Facepalm *
Dis you guys read the launch chart in my thread?
F230 is only ever to be weak launched against Sway-Attack.
Against same-spin Stamina, you go for the KO. I literally tested this exact combination, and hit 100% sway-KO with Dragooon F230 every single time haha. XD
Dis you guys read the launch chart in my thread?
F230 is only ever to be weak launched against Sway-Attack.
Against same-spin Stamina, you go for the KO. I literally tested this exact combination, and hit 100% sway-KO with Dragooon F230 every single time haha. XD
Yes, but against GCF, the tests you did above. I didn't weak launch in any of my test, but that's why we need to consider something with better sway-resistance.
(Feb. 16, 2014 1:16 AM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote: Yes, but against GCF, the tests you did above. I didn't weak launch in any of my test, but that's why we need to consider something with better sway-resistance.
I know. I was talking about the testing on the last page.
Trouble is, Dragooon combinations have to be able to spin-steal to be competitive. There's no such thing as a competitive spin-equalization Bottom that can resist sway. Plus, sway-resistant Bottoms are usually prone to destabilization by Dragooon F230.
Besides, anything mildly sway resistant would die hardcore to opposite-spin F230, which means taking down both spin-directions is impossible.
But there's other combos that prove that to be untrue. BWD is used to resist SWAY and spin-steal so I don't see how you can say that. 
But it didn't die hardcore from opposite spin F230...
Edit: MB also works well on this custom.
But it didn't die hardcore from opposite spin F230...
Edit: MB also works well on this custom.
(Feb. 16, 2014 1:25 AM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote: But there's other combos that prove that to be untrue. BWD is used to resist SWAY and spin-steal so I don't see how you can say that.
But it didn't die hardcore from opposite spin F230...
Edit: MB also works well on this custom.
Yeah, one of the main reasons people choose to use BWD is the fact that it is Sway Resistant...
(Feb. 16, 2014 1:14 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: *Facepalm *
Dis you guys read the launch chart in my thread?
F230 is only ever to be weak launched against Sway-Attack.
Against same-spin Stamina, you go for the KO. I literally tested this exact combination, and hit 100% sway-KO with Dragooon F230 every single time haha. XD
My bad.
I had one other combination I was looking into as far as Left Spin Stamina goes, so hopefully I'll have tests tonight.
BWD is partially sway-resistant. However, any half-decent Saw Attack type will fling it into next week very consistently.
It's used mostly to avoid sway KO against other Stamina types (y'know, when sometimes D-series Bottoms will cause sway, and you can end up losing to an opposing Stamina type via SKO). It's far, far, far from a Sway-Defense Bottom, though.
It's used mostly to avoid sway KO against other Stamina types (y'know, when sometimes D-series Bottoms will cause sway, and you can end up losing to an opposing Stamina type via SKO). It's far, far, far from a Sway-Defense Bottom, though.
(Feb. 16, 2014 1:42 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: BWD is partially sway-resistant. However, any half-decent Saw Attack type will fling it into next week very consistently.
It's used mostly to avoid sway KO against other Stamina types (y'know, when sometimes D-series Bottoms will cause sway, and you can end up losing to an opposing Stamina type via SKO). It's far, far, far from a Sway-Defense Bottom, though.
Never said it was a Sway Defense bottom, I mentioned that it was sway-resistant.
I wouldn't say that any "half decent Saw" Sway Attacker would defeat it constantly.
Really? It's by no means the best, but seems to do its job sufficiently.
Balro Balro SP230GF vs. Killerken Killerken SA165BWD
Killerken launched first on all launches.
Balro: wins, 7/20 (1 OS, 1 KO, 5 OGKO)
Killerken: wins, 13/20 (4 OS, 2 KO, 7 OGKO)
BWD win rate: 65%
Balro Balro SP230GF vs. Killerken Killerken SA165BWD
Killerken launched first on all launches.
Balro: wins, 7/20 (1 OS, 1 KO, 5 OGKO)
Killerken: wins, 13/20 (4 OS, 2 KO, 7 OGKO)
BWD win rate: 65%
(Feb. 16, 2014 1:46 AM)Leone19 Wrote:(Feb. 16, 2014 1:42 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: BWD is partially sway-resistant. However, any half-decent Saw Attack type will fling it into next week very consistently.
It's used mostly to avoid sway KO against other Stamina types (y'know, when sometimes D-series Bottoms will cause sway, and you can end up losing to an opposing Stamina type via SKO). It's far, far, far from a Sway-Defense Bottom, though.
Never said it was a Sway Defense bottom, I mentioned that it was sway-resistant.
I wouldn't say that any "half decent Saw" Sway Attacker would defeat it constantly.
If launched right, yah, it probably would LOL.
So you're saying you didn't launch correctly, because those tests you did yourself say otherwise?
This is getting pretty off-topic, maybe we should move discussion to BWD discussion?
This is getting pretty off-topic, maybe we should move discussion to BWD discussion?
What, in the Sway-Defense Bottom comparison thread?
No, I didn't launch correctly haha. I didn't use an aggressive sliding launch (I launched everything with a straight shot; that said, the results are still valid, since the launches were identical, but that is quite a misrepresentation in terms of how well each Bottom actually does). At that point in the development of Zero-G, prescribed launches weren't really developed for Sway-Attack.
If you launch towards the very edge of the stadium, sliding forward at full launch strength, you should be able to hit at least 90%.
No, I didn't launch correctly haha. I didn't use an aggressive sliding launch (I launched everything with a straight shot; that said, the results are still valid, since the launches were identical, but that is quite a misrepresentation in terms of how well each Bottom actually does). At that point in the development of Zero-G, prescribed launches weren't really developed for Sway-Attack.
If you launch towards the very edge of the stadium, sliding forward at full launch strength, you should be able to hit at least 90%.
Oh, haha.
I'll test with Zero-G attack now, but I have these tests ATM:
Genbull Dragooon CH120(CH145 Mode)BWD Vs. Girago Killerken E230MB
GD: 10(All OS)
GK: 0
Ties: 0
Dragooon Win Percentage: 100%
MB was in fairly good condition.
Zero-G Attack Tests:
Genbull Dragooon CH120(CH120 Mode)BWD Vs. MSF-H Balro Balro SA165(Attack Mode)GF
GD: 16(1KO, 4OS, 11Self-KO)
BB: 4(All KO)
Ties: 0
Genbull Dragooon Win Percentage: 75%
Mint GF, I can test with GCF soon, considering Dragoon's wins were mainly because of Balro's Self-KO's. I hypothesize; it's because of CH120's weight that gives it such a problem.
Edit: Thanks Kai-V. GCF had the same problem; it couldn't manage to stay in the stadium.
I'll test with Zero-G attack now, but I have these tests ATM:
Genbull Dragooon CH120(CH145 Mode)BWD Vs. Girago Killerken E230MB
GD: 10(All OS)
GK: 0
Ties: 0
Dragooon Win Percentage: 100%
MB was in fairly good condition.
Zero-G Attack Tests:
Genbull Dragooon CH120(CH120 Mode)BWD Vs. MSF-H Balro Balro SA165(Attack Mode)GF
GD: 16(1KO, 4OS, 11Self-KO)
BB: 4(All KO)
Ties: 0
Genbull Dragooon Win Percentage: 75%
Mint GF, I can test with GCF soon, considering Dragoon's wins were mainly because of Balro's Self-KO's. I hypothesize; it's because of CH120's weight that gives it such a problem.
Edit: Thanks Kai-V. GCF had the same problem; it couldn't manage to stay in the stadium.
By the way : Zero-G Attack, not "Sway Attack".
Opposite-spin cannot ZGKO BWD (or anything, really, for that matter).
Anyway, even if BWD can manage to stay in the stadium against Dragooon F230, it should lose via destabilization. Way too short.
It should also lose to right-spin F230 anyway.
Anyway, even if BWD can manage to stay in the stadium against Dragooon F230, it should lose via destabilization. Way too short.
It should also lose to right-spin F230 anyway.
So did some informal testing, do what you want with this-
Genbull Dragoon SR200 CS mainly tied Dragoon F230.
Genbull Dragoon SA165 (Normal Mode) GF won about 12/15 times against Dragoon F230, it had many OS's, actually. It won 3 times, but for the other 7, tied with Duo F230 GCF.
Again, just informal battles.
Genbull Dragoon SR200 CS mainly tied Dragoon F230.
Genbull Dragoon SA165 (Normal Mode) GF won about 12/15 times against Dragoon F230, it had many OS's, actually. It won 3 times, but for the other 7, tied with Duo F230 GCF.
Again, just informal battles.
(Feb. 16, 2014 3:38 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Opposite-spin cannot ZGKO BWD (or anything, really, for that matter).
Anyway, even if BWD can manage to stay in the stadium against Dragooon F230, it should lose via destabilization. Way too short.
It should also lose to right-spin F230 anyway.
Low tracks only scrape in Zero-G if there BD145 or some gimmick track(I.e. H145, WD145). Plus, I know for a fact CH120(CH145 Mode) will not scrape in Zero-G.
Well, it doesn't.
I didn't say it would scrape (I suspect it would somewhat, though). Just that it would be force smashed to death very easily.