World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Beyblade Discussion Beyblade General

Why F230 CF/GCF breaks the game

Poll: What should be done about F230?

Ban it altogether
15.96%
15
Ban it to some extent
35.11%
33
Leave it alone
48.94%
46
Total: 100% 94 vote(s)
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Dec. 07, 2013  3:58 AM
 
MSF Kraken Dragooon F230* GCF vs. MF Libra AD145 WD
launched first on even launches, launched first on odd.
Detail Results (Click to View)
: 4 (3 OS, 1 KO)
: 16 (16 OS, 0 KO)
MF Libra AD145 WD Win %: 80.0%

Figured I'd toss this out there. This was in a Zero-G stadium. I was playing around with some Beys against my Dragooon combo, and the old Metal System Libra was getting some wins. I decided to formally test it.

I do have to mention that most of the Libra wins were by only a few revolutions of the Bey. There was only 2-3 times where it REALLY kept spinning after the Dragooon stopped.

*Hasbro red F230. It's been really stable with good spin times, but I figured I'd put this disclaimer in here.
Dec. 07, 2013  4:27 AM
 
Don't see how you got those results.

MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF vs. MF-H Libra(Mold 2) AD145WD

GD: 10(All OS)
L: 0
Ties: 3

MF-H Libra AD145WD Win %: 0%

All you have to do is weak launch and you'll win by several rotations.
Dec. 07, 2013  4:29 AM
 
The red hasbro f230 isn't really good (I own one), what color was yours kaizer?
Dec. 07, 2013  4:31 AM
 
It was orange. Did you weak-launch? Plus, I don't think this will do well against anything else from the meta.
Dec. 07, 2013  4:39 AM
 
(Dec. 07, 2013  4:27 AM)Kaizer Wrote: Don't see how you got those results.

MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF vs. MF-H Libra(Mold 2) AD145WD

GD: 10(All OS)
L: 0
Ties: 3

MF-H Libra AD145WD Win %: 0%

All you have to do is weak launch and you'll win by several rotations.

Could have been the launch, or could have been the Hasbro F230. I've also got a 1st mold Libra, though I can't see it making a huge difference.

Kaiser Wrote:It was orange. Did you weak-launch? Plus, I don't think this will do well against anything else from the meta.
I did weak launch, though maybe not well enough. As for the combo doing better in the meta, that wasn't the goal here Smile I was just fooling around seeing what would do well against the f230 combo.
Dec. 07, 2013  4:43 AM
 
Actually when I first launched I got a tie (launched regularly), but then when I weak-launched it made all the difference.

Then considering the red F230 it probably made it worse a little which explains the wins by few rotations.

Plus I was using Genbull instead of Killerken, I also dount the mold would matter much IMO, but I'm not aware of the differences in molds.

Edit: You might want to shoot for 30-40% launch strength.
Dec. 10, 2013  12:23 AM
 
TBH, no matter how "good" a red or brown F230 is, it is in no way comparable to an orange one.

An average F230 will win against your everyday spin-equalization setups (B : D, BD145RDF, SA165EWD...), but it's not like it stomps it by a mile. It'll only OS by a rotation or two.

Take away the slightest free-rotation ability, and you're pushed back too far to OS any of those things. Even if you have the greatest brown F230 in the world, if it isn't as good as an effective orange F230, testing against it is useless.

That said, there are also different consistencies in orange F230's. For instance, Dark_Mousy and I both have orange F230's that are far, far above average when it comes to spinning freely. One of my F230's is so unbelievable, that it completely wrecks any spin-equalizing setup by 3 or 4 rotations, which is kind of insane.

Some orange F230's can actually be out-spun by extremely high-precession setups, but they have to perform quite poorly. For instance, I've seen an orange F230 that was so hindered and squeaky that it would actually lose to a Duo SA165EWD custom (not by much, but Duo still took the win most of the time). It's the good, orange F230's that are the problem.
Dec. 10, 2013  12:30 AM
 
(Dec. 07, 2013  4:31 AM)Kaizer Wrote: It was orange. Did you weak-launch? Plus, I don't think this will do well against anything else from the meta.

kyler it wouldn't have to beat anything else in the meta we are just trying to find a way to beat F230 GCF
(Dec. 10, 2013  12:23 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: TBH, no matter how "good" a red or brown F230 is, it is in no way comparable to an orange one.

An average F230 will win against your everyday spin-equalization setups (B : D, BD145RDF, SA165EWD...), but it's not like it stomps it by a mile. It'll only OS by a rotation or two.

Take away the slightest free-rotation ability, and you're pushed back too far to OS any of those things. Even if you have the greatest brown F230 in the world, if it isn't as good as an effective orange F230, testing against it is useless.

That said, there are also different consistencies in orange F230's. For instance, Dark_Mousy and I both have orange F230's that are far, far above average when it comes to spinning freely. One of my F230's is so unbelievable, that it completely wrecks any spin-equalizing setup by 3 or 4 rotations, which is kind of insane.

Some orange F230's can actually be out-spun by extremely high-precession setups, but they have to perform quite poorly. For instance, I've seen an orange F230 that was so hindered and squeaky that it would actually lose to a Duo SA165EWD custom (not by much, but Duo still took the win most of the time). It's the good, orange F230's that are the problem.
I agree 100 % but how should someone go about trying to beat an Orange F230 GCF Set up? I have an orange f-230 and I know how to make F-230s top tier ones (or at least temporarily) but I feel that all options have not been tested. I think that we should try using some 4 piece set ups to defeat it like maybe Chimera or Quetzalcoatl could work.
Dec. 10, 2013  12:51 AM
 
(Dec 06 2013 11:31 PM)Kaizer Wrote:
It was orange. Did you weak-launch? Plus, I don't think this will do well against anything else from the meta.

kyler it wouldn't have to beat anything else in the meta we are just trying to find a way to beat F230 GCF



The meta can't be made up of just f230 combos and f230 counters, it needs to be something that can beat f230 and do decent against the rest of the meta, right?
Dec. 10, 2013  12:54 AM
 
just delete my posts. I've become useless ever since I have returned to the WBO Just go ahead and delete my posts on this thread Time is right. Even though he said it in a way that makes me want to do certain things he's right. I have lost my touch and for one reason or another I am not that same blader that left this organization for a short while....
Dec. 10, 2013  2:23 AM
 
(Dec. 10, 2013  12:30 AM)Triforceblader Wrote: I agree 100 % but how should someone go about trying to beat an Orange F230 GCF Set up? I have an orange f-230 and I know how to make F-230s top tier ones (or at least temporarily) but I feel that all options have not been tested. I think that we should try using some 4 piece set ups to defeat it like maybe Chimera or Quetzalcoatl could work.
This is quite honestly one of the most ludicrous things I have ever heard. I can't actually do it and I may get a warning for this, but you are hereby banned from posting in this thread. Your posts are just stirring up unnecessary debate about things that could never possibly work. The only things that logically have a chance of beating both right and left spin f230 and being a competitive combo in the overall meta are as follows: Gravity, Variares, Phantom, Duo, Death, Flash, Dragooon Synchromes, Genbull/Reviser/Killerken Synchromes, Attack-based Synchromes. If anyone suggests anything else without providing valid test results, can their posts please be deleted? They just irritate people.
Dec. 10, 2013  2:31 AM
 
(Dec. 10, 2013  2:23 AM)Time Wrote:
(Dec. 10, 2013  12:30 AM)Triforceblader Wrote: I agree 100 % but how should someone go about trying to beat an Orange F230 GCF Set up? I have an orange f-230 and I know how to make F-230s top tier ones (or at least temporarily) but I feel that all options have not been tested. I think that we should try using some 4 piece set ups to defeat it like maybe Chimera or Quetzalcoatl could work.
This is quite honestly one of the most ludicrous things I have ever heard. I can't actually do it and I may get a warning for this, but you are hereby banned from posting in this thread. Your posts are just stirring up unnecessary debate about things that could never possibly work. The only things that logically have a chance of beating both right and left spin f230 and being a competitive combo in the overall meta are as follows: Gravity, Variares, Phantom, Duo, Death, Flash, Dragooon Synchromes, Genbull/Reviser/Killerken Synchromes, Attack-based Synchromes. If anyone suggests anything else without providing valid test results, can their posts please be deleted? They just irritate people.

its ludicrous because it hasn't been tested at all. But the thing is, I'm not that same blader from months before.... Just go ahead and delete my recent posts...
Dec. 10, 2013  3:07 AM
 
I figured I would get warned for that, so whatever.
Maybe the stamina clear wheel for gravity would make enough of a difference but on 230 D, SA165 EWD, and W145 WD Gravity lost every match in same spin against F230. Anyone with the Stamina Clear wheel care to test?
Dec. 10, 2013  3:20 AM
 
Er... the only thing the Stamina CW really does to gravity is hinder its ability to spin-steal from 230-height customs (which is already quite difficult for it to do).

I've actually been experimenting with Duo Cancer B : D in BB-10, and the results aren't bad. Then again, my F230 was in serious need of cleaning, and it was barely squeaking out wins anyway. I might be able to get some testing up later in the week (I have piles of schoolwork ATM).
Dec. 10, 2013  5:37 PM
 
(Dec. 10, 2013  3:20 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Er... the only thing the Stamina CW really does to gravity is hinder its ability to spin-steal from 230-height customs (which is already quite difficult for it to do).

I've actually been experimenting with Duo Cancer B : D in BB-10, and the results aren't bad. Then again, my F230 was in serious need of cleaning, and it was barely squeaking out wins anyway. I might be able to get some testing up later in the week (I have piles of schoolwork ATM).

Especially with Gravity being too light to resist getting thrown around by something like Genbull Dragooon F230CF.

Can you test Duo Cancer B: D in the Zero-G Attack Stadium too? B: D trashes sway (a reason Killerken Dragooon BGrin is resistant to being swayed out, even with Dragooon) {IMO} and Duo can stop spin steal dead (Except for things like your Girago Dragooon SA165 (Attack Mode)EWD)



P: S: Oops, Time got warned! (<--off topic)
Hope you found time to clean your F230s blackdragon! Smile
Dec. 10, 2013  7:07 PM
 
RDF3 it was worth it, maybe it will teach people a lesson.
So, I just did a slew of variares tests and none came within 3 rotations post-topple.
List of stuff that did not work:
85 D/SD/WD/EWD
T125 D/SD/WD/EWD
W145 D/SD/WD/EWD
LW160 D/SD/WD/EWD
SA165 D/SD/WD/EWD
SR200 D/SD/WD/EWD/CS/MB
230 D/SD/WD/EWD/CS/MB

One thing I forgot to test was TB, so if anyone has some patience for that I am kind of tested out.
Dec. 14, 2013  3:57 AM
 
I personally do not see anything wrong with the combo f-230 Cf/Gcf. I just bought the Hasbro berserker behemoth in the two pack...and f230 is a freak of nature in my bb10. It reeks more than my dog's farts in terms of stamina. It squeeks...A lot. I feel like I just wasted money Tongue_out
Dec. 14, 2013  4:12 AM
 
That's because the Hasbro red F230 is the worst out of the F230 series. The orange one from Takara Tomy is supposedly superior, and a cleaned out brown after that.
Dec. 14, 2013  4:21 AM
 
You know why? Because you bought the Hasbro F230.

EVERYBODY. We are only concerned with Synchrom (MSF(-H/L/M)) _______ Dragooon F230CF/GCF customizations, using Takara Tomy's orange Bandid Genbull F230TB F230 Track!

We are specifically discussing these customs' performance in the Zero-G Attack type stadium.

Information unhelpful to post includes the following:

Testing with Hasbro F230s, or Brown Takara Tomy F230s
Testing with Hasbro F230s, or Brown Takara Tomy F230s
Testing with Hasbro F230s, or Brown Takara Tomy F230s
Testing with Hasbro F230s, or Brown Takara Tomy F230s
Testing with Hasbro F230s, or Brown Takara Tomy F230s

And finally, last but not least:

Testing with Hasbro F230s, or Brown Takara Tomy F230s

... and some other stuff, but you get the general idea. Wink

If you do not have experience testing with these customs (Synchrom (MSF(-H/L/M)) _______ Dragooon F230CF/GCF customizations, using Takara Tomy's orange Bandid Genbull F230TB F230 Track!) USING THE CORRECT LAUNCH TECHNIQUES, or have not found anything to counter them worth looking into, please, please refrain from posting anything that will inevitably clutter up the topic. It's hard to have an important discussion with random posting going on. :\

EDIT: Whoops... sorry Naijalak, you beat me, LOL! XD
Dec. 14, 2013  4:28 AM
 
Exactly what theblackdragon said, but since some of the red and brown ones have shown to be somewhat effective, if you can demonstrate that yours is one of these select few testing with it is ok.
Jan. 11, 2014  8:35 PM
 
A while back I had the idea of a variares sway attacker as a counter, it failed horribly. Its light weight makes it so it can't even handle the power of its own sway and only beat f230gcf out of pure luck, no consistency

edit: Although, I only ever tried it on SA165 if someone wanted to try it on E230 or even SP230 there's a chance we could have something....
Jan. 18, 2014  2:43 PM
 
Considering that, at this point, we've been nearly 7 months in looking for a competitive counter to ___ Dragooon F230CF/GCF in Zero-G, and we still haven't come up with anything, could we please push for a ban?

Testing and tournament results confirm that, given the user launches correctly, it can stop Sway Attack, and obliterate Dragooon Stamina, and OS literally anything in right-spin. It does, in fact, completely nullify the entire game, and makes anything besides itself virtually useless.

Ingulit Wrote:As an example, back when the Maximum Series was just released, Basalt was so ridiculously heavy and powerful that the metagame became "Basalt" and "Things that beat Basalt" (the latter of which being a very small list at the time). A number of people have looked back and acknowledged that Basalt probably should have been banned at that time, since literally nothing even came close to its power level.

What's the Zero-G meta right now? Dragooon F230 and things that beat Dragooon F230, the list of the latter being, not only small, but virtually nonexistent.

The fact is, with a good F230, in the hands of a skilled user, Dragooon F230CF/GCF is virtually unbeatable (and I say virtually only because of the nearly nonexistent presence of Dragooon TB, which is altogether uncompetitive against the rest of the meta, and isn't even a consistent counter if the Dragooon user can bank and OS).

In the few places where users are willing to abuse Dragooon F230, the meta has been horribly warped into a game of F230 vs. F230 over and over again, until one person tries to counter it and ends up losing. It's really very boring to play in such a meta, and here in NC we actually lost several players solely because of the fact that F230 was far too dominant.

Not only did it destroy our meta, but it destroyed the community. I honestly think the sooner we can ban it, the better.
Jan. 18, 2014  2:46 PM
 
Duo F230 Loses against Duo SA165
Dragooon F230 loses against Revizer Dragooon
Jan. 18, 2014  2:58 PM
 
... No it doesn't.

Quote:
MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF vs. Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD
Dragooon BWD launched first on all launches. Dragooon F230 launched aggressively toward the edge of the stadium.
F230: wins, 19/20 (3 OS, 16 SKO)
SA165: wins, 1/20 (1 OS)
MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF win rate: 95%


MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF vs. Killerken Dragooon B : D
Dragooon B : D launched first on all launches. Dragooon F230 launched aggressively toward the edge of the stadium.
F230: wins, 10/10 (3 OS, 7 SKO)
B : D: wins, 0/10
MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF win rate: 100%

Every OS here was simply the Stamina combinations being swayed so violently that their spin was almost completely drained. It wasn't very hard at all really, B : D took a dive no matter how I launched, and BWD was laughably flimsy if you just launched like you would a normal Sway Attack type. Dragooon BWD/B : D does not beat Dragooon F230. I've seen it in tournaments, and I've seen it in testing.

I watched Dragooon F230CF/GCF go up against Dragooon Stamina of all kinds, and you need to do is launch wide and sway-KO. It's never lost to Dragooon Stamina in our tournaments. Not even once.
Jan. 18, 2014  3:07 PM
 
Lulz. I am an experienced F230GCF user, but I see NO problem with it in Zero-G. As I said before, I got wrecked in the BB-10 by some wacky combos. After Synchrom Saturday ended, we decided to have a fun Zero-G tournament. I used F230GCF one time and admit that I won. But then I switched to Duo SA165BWD, faced Dragooon F230GCF and won 3-0.

The way I see it, SA165WSF users can take F230GCF/CF a run for the money. ESPECIALLY if you weak launch an bank.
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